Login  | |
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:12:14 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
I see that you don't appear to see that the offer is only valid for those in Christ Jesus ; only those In Christ have the gift . And the only way to be in Christ , is to accept , by personal decission to place one's faith in Christ , then one is baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit , and havve eternal life .
You believe you must "qualify" for the gift ?
Wow, what's Christmas like at your house ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:21:36 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
I've never tried to convince you that the human will is worth preaching about ; thats a misconception on your part . I really don't think I can convince you of anything , not even what I consider to be proper interpretation of the Scripture's above .
Oh well..........saddle um up !
Speaking of ignoring verses...
The verse below is habitually glossed over.
Faith is a good gift from above.
No one believes man generates faith.
So, please dissect the verse and explain-
James 1:17-18 (King James Version)
17Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
And check out the next verse...
How about your take on that one ?
18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
If it's His will (and God says it is)
then where does YOUR will fit in ?
Does your will have to help God's will ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:30:58 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Yes, a true saved child of God will be brought to repentance eventually. However to say that unless he dies in unrepentent sin he is unsaved, is sheer catholicism, suggesting that some sins are OK, some sins are Mortal.. No, no, no.I have lovely true believeing RC friends, but i dont buy into this whole CC deal. I don't disagree, we will never be without sin on this earth. But, there is sin and there is a sinful lifestyle. If our lives don't change, we have no reason to consider ourselves saved.
If Solomon went to his death worshipping the pagan gods, this would be a rebellious sinful lifestyle. And we find nothing in Scripture leading us to believe this is possible with a true believer.
Question for both you stalwart giants of thread-
What if one dies in a "season of sin" ?
What is one dies not doing Lord's work ?
IOW, person lives by grace in holy, righteous living.
Entire lifetime is saintly, filled with deeds prompted by faith.
However, sinful detour is taken prior to death.
Godly man returns to mud & vomit.
Due to "bad" timing, man dies compromisingly.
Repentance was sure to follow, but death surprised.
What if one dies while sinning...no repentance possible ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:34:47 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You may call the gospel a summons if you desire . But the Scripture says that from the time of Jesus' temptation in the wilderness , Jesus began to preach Repent : for the kingdom of heaven is near . It is more like a command rather than a summons .
And this is important because...
You say the gospel is a summons.
Then you talk about repentance.
What exactly are you saying God's message is ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:38:31 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
God quickens us , not the word , the Word washes us . But yes , it is an offer , and no , there is no power in us to save ourselves . The power in the gospel comes in the Holy Spirit with conviction and convincing .
This makes sense for a little bit.
If God quickens and washes us,
where does the offer come in ?
Kinda silly to hold out an offer if God is
already doing His work in us, isn't it ?
Or does God have to ask permission ?
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 6:53:12 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
KJB ,
quote:
I can thank God for my faith and I do because I am convinced my faith was caused by Him.
You really cant thank God for your faith because you are not even convinced it was a gift from God.
Where in Scripture do you read of Paul or any of the apostles thanking God for their faith ? They thank God for all things , but they never mention their faith as one of them . As a matter of fact , we never read of anyone thanking God for giving anyone faith .
Why is this important ?
Not trying to be difficult...why say this ?
Do we read of men thanking God much ?
For grace, mercy, kindness ? Where ?
There is that freaky, obnoxious Pharisee-
thanking God he was not like other men.
Oh, BTW...Paul does thank for faith !
Perhaps you innocently overlooked it 
Romans 1:8 (King James Version)
8First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:00:45 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Earnestly contend means to struggle for .
Why does Jude advise his reader's to struggle for faith if its a gift ?
These two verses contradict the theology of faith as a gift ; and support that we wrestle and struggle for faith .
The verses you quoted do not support , nor even imply that faith is a gift . There is no clear evidence to support your position .
We all struggle with faith, hope, and love !
To strive, to struggle is the part of our walk.
We can misplace faith, but never lose it.
That is not Jude's point .
Jude 1:3 (King James Version)
3Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
People ALREADY have a common faith.
These folks all believe in the same thing.
The faith is the belief system they adhere to.
What was delivered unto the saints ?
Where do you get individual faith in Christ ?
I don't believe you understand the verse correctly.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:02:00 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
The Bible DOESN'T say faith comes from within-
For with the heart man believeth
Faith doesn't originate within-
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:11:39 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
My "all" is every man because I think God so loved the world, meaning all mankind.
Your "ALL" really doesn't matter friend...
All is the greater part: when ALL is not all
Matthew 3:5 (King James Version)
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Matthew 8:34 (King James Version)
34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Mark 1:33 (King James Version)
33And all the city was gathered together at the door.
John 10:8 (King James Version)
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 21:26 (King James Version)
26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Matthew 24:9 (King James Version)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
Luke 15:1 (King James Version)
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
1 Corinthians 9:19 (King James Version)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1 Corinthians 9:22 (King James Version)
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Colossians 1:28 (King James Version)
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Genesis 24:10 (King James Version)
10And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand:
Joel 2:28 (King James Version)
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
Luke 3:6 (King James Version)
6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:17:28 PM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 2841
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
More on world and all...
1 John 5:19 (King James Version)
19And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
If we are of God, then WHOLE world not in wickedness.
John 1:10 (King James Version)
10He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Part of the world knew Him not; not the WHOLE world.
John 6:33 (King James Version)
33For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
If life is given to WHOLE world, then all 100 % are saved.
John 14:31 (King James Version)
31But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
The WHOLE world does not know or care Jesus loves Father.
1 Corinthians 11:32 (King James Version)
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
WHOLE world is not condemned. World cannot be “all”.
1 John 3:1 (King James Version)
1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
Everyone in the WHOLE world doesn’t know these people ? No one ?
John 12:31 (King James Version)
31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Devil is prince of WHOLE world…even believers ?
Now look at verse 12…in the right context !!!
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
Yes, I have stolen your scissors...it's for your own good really. My loving action will prevent you from deleting those Bible passages that you find repugnant...
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 7:56:49 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
Odeliya,
quote:
Because that is not included in the definition of Free will Freewill doesnt mean we are free to not sin.
And this is why:
If we are free to not sin, that the salvation is owed to us, we honestly earned it, as a wage.
If this is what FW was then of course it is unbiblical.
But FW says that we are sinners, and remain sinners, and cant be anything but sinners on our own.
Its not like we are able to not sin, we are able to see our miserable state and cry for help.
That is what id worthy of debate, not arguing against the definition of FW that is not correct.
Well, I was not trying to show only one point of what is not free-will.
I have been trying to show all sorts of ways that free-will can be shown to be a myth.....even when it is in regard to sinners turning to Jesus Christ on and of their own will.
Like you say, and I agree with you;
"But FW says that we are sinners, and remain sinners, and cant be anything but sinners on our own."
Sin.....any sin at all is considered evil.
So now what does Scripture say about those that do evil?
Here is one text and shows what people will not do;
19"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Every one that does evil hates the Light, and does not come into the Light.
That is where the will of the evil man lies.........they will not come.
It takes nothing less than an act of God to move an evil man to the Light.
When people come to the Light it is not evidence of the work of evil men.........but of God.
That is why we can thank God for our brothers in Christ.....because it is the work of God.
Now, if people have a lower estimation of what sin is and they do not consider themselves evil they will end up with a totally different doctrine altogether.
Some people (even Christians) see themselves as not as sinful as the evil guy down the road and so they suppose that such harsh text does not apply to them.
The text applies to sinners and all have sinned and fall short....even Cornelius and Mary.
Some people are certainly bigger sinners than others but evil is still evil in the eyes of God.
Take care Odeliya.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 8:31:28 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
umcbee,
This is what you told me;
quote:
Absolutely nothing in the text nor context of 2 Cor 4:1-12 even remotely implies that God gives believers their faith , nothing , unless one presupposes it of course .
We dont have to go far to see that as you try to apply the text only to Paul and Timothy you are not seeing some of the text.
The text is not only to do with Paul and Timothy because it clearly speaks about those that are perishing, every man's conscience, and unbelievers.
It has to do with how they came to believe.
Here is the text;
1Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.
2Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.
On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
It happens to say unbelievers "cannot see".
Not much on the unbelievers "can see" ability scale there.
On a scale from 1 to 10 how much Light of the gospel do you think unbelievers can see?
If you gave any answer from a 1 to 10 scale you are using the wrong scale.
The correct answer is ZERO.
They cannot see.
That is the scale they are on.......zero.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:02:03 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
umcbee,
quote:
I see that you don't appear to see that the offer is only valid for those in Christ Jesus ; only those In Christ have the gift . And the only way to be in Christ , is to accept , by personal decission to place one's faith in Christ , then one is baptised into Christ by the Holy Spirit , and havve eternal life .
Ok.....lets just go with that......your very own words.
Only those in Christ have the gift of eternal life.
30But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31so that, just as it is written,
"LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD."
As for people being "in Christ Jesus" there is no room at all for you to preach "human will" in any way shape or form.
By His doing you are in Christ Jesus..........not your doing.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:16:29 PM
|
|
|
SophiesLadder
Posts: 48
Joined: 9/29/2008
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL:shemaromans
I would be a little more thoughtful and careful before using the word farce again.
I would step back for a while and really try to understand RT without the puppet/robot exaggerations. They’re one-dimensional “cliches”…..
Well, the use of the word ‘farce’ or ‘sham’ was not meant to be pejorative. I used them for their specific meaning. I am asking for someone to describe to me how total determinism DOESN’T make a sham of salvation and God’s glory. However, I will clarify what I am referring to when I say free will, since, as I said earlier I do not believe that our freedom is unlimited:
Jesus Christ is our Savior. We cannot save ourselves. I did not die on the cross and even if I did, my sacrifice would be worthless because I am spotted and blemished. Christ has committed the act, done the deed, paid the price for my redemption. It is not me who knocks on the door of my heart with the gospel of Jesus Christ. It is Christ Himself, through the Holy Spirit, that knocks upon that door. Yet it is I myself that must open the door, the door that I am free to open or keep shut, that I MUST be free to do or else God is a violator of His highest standard, the principle of personal dignity, which flows from the fact of His very Person. This does not devalue the work of Jesus Christ one bit and it does not devalue His sovereignty. To the contrary, it shows God to be of the greatest integrity.
It is THAT freedom I am defending.
This perspective reconciles these two facts:
1. God is not willing that any should perish.
2. Some people are going to hell.
On the other hand, maybe God is compelling me to defend free will by using words like farce and sham and puppet/robot exaggerations like that. Somebody stop me! And maybe God at the same time is compelling others to argue for determinism. What a neat little play we’re caught up in here.
quote:
Original: KingJamesBond
When we look at the situation from a Biblical perspective it does no justice to think of these things in these ways. (Prison cells and puppet strings etc.)
If it’s not appropriate, explain why it’s not. But if the shoe fits….
quote:
God knew Job better than both Satan and Job did.
And so He did. However, God’s knowledge of Job makes it no less of a sham if He compelled Job to act.
quote:
“Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light…..”
All it takes is truth in honesty and a soul will clearly see that those who do evil WILL NOT COME into the light.
Well, if I merely wanted to score a quick point, I would say, precisely so, my point is made – the very use of the word WILL implies the freedom / ability to act, because if the that ability was not present, the proper statement would be rendered CAN NOT COME. (Merriam, will: used to express…choice) However, I believe the original text is simply “ουκ έρχεται” meaning “comes not” and I don’t believe that is decisive in determining where it is compelled or freely done. However, other verses such as “Whosoever will….” would do just as well.
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
What is love if we have no choice to hate?
What is obedience is we have no choice to disobey?
I don’t know what you call it, but it’s not love. Forced love and compelled liberty are oxymorons.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: SophiesLadder
There’s no glory for God in compelling us to do something as if we were robots. You may be right – man may not have free will. And if that is the case, then God is not glorified.
Where does God declare this?
Every where the Word speaks of righteousness or justice. Justice is not simply reward or punishment - it is merited reward or punishment. Who has ever defined justice as reward / punishment meted out for actions for which one was not responsible or beyond one’s ability to control? In fact, that is the very definition of injustice. Since justice implies responsibility and responsibility implies free will, the concept of free will is inherent within the concept of justice and righteousness. “Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?”
To punish a person for things he has no control over – such as the color of his skin – is the very essence of racism. That’s why we call racism unjust. To force your will on someone against their will is rape, which is a characteristic of Zeus, not the living God.
But look deeper into the commandments and you will see that every one – in particular the Ten – flow from the principle of upholding personal (I say personal, not human) – dignity. To be capable of murder, theft, adultery, is to first treat the other as an object instead of a person. To create an idol is to make gods of objects. God is eternal Life and He is a Person. He above all is the upholder of personal dignity – which means one may violate one’s will. To hold that He compels a person into salvation is to hold Him as the violator of His highest standards.
quote:
It was only by God’s hand that Job didn’t curse God….
Then Job’s actions and God’s glory remain a sham. If Job had nothing to do with it, God wouldn’t have said, Have you considered my servant Job? He would have said, Have you considered what I compelled my servant Job to do?
quote:
ORIGINAL: shemaromans
He does desire all men to be saved but he also desires justice.
Then He will respect our freedom to receive or reject salvation, since justice is bound to the concept of free will and moral responsibility.
quote:
We believe because we are elect. If the other way around, then we would have elected ourselves.
I disagree with this. Election speaks to the ordination, the approval of a path – a path that included man being a free moral agent - that God foreknew before He created the world. Confusion is created when foreknowledge is equated with compelling. Neither foreknowledge nor election preclude freedom of the human will in responding to the gospel. In other words, God says, “I see how the world will be when men decide with their free will. Let it be so.” This elects those whom He foreknew to make their free-will decision for salvation.
quote:
23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
The word gift here is the Greek charisma, as in, the spiritual gifts. Interestingly enough, “..the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace..” (1 Cor 14:32-33). God does not overwhelm man with His gifts.
It is also interesting to note that the Greek word lambano, used as received in “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God…” (John 1:12), is defined by Strong’s as to take or to get hold of. The action is clearly on the part of the receiver (but in no way does this diminish the value of the gift or the giver).
quote:
If the Calvinist ever looked at eternal life as an offer their entire theology would crumble
We could be like some gods and make him an offer he can’t refuse. :)
Behold, I stand at the door and knock, and if you don’t open up I will huff and puff and blow your house in.
Sorry. Maybe I was compelled to do that.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:16:53 PM
|
|
|
tdd1975
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
If it is an offer only, I would agree with you. But the gospel is more than that.
It is a summons to repent and live. A powerful call to life. If it is an offer only
then the power is us but the power is in the word itself to quicken us.
quote:
Agree, TDD.
If we are made alive in Christ, it must be more than an offer, no?
Please show Biblical illustration of someone being offered salvation. And of course, we should also see someone rejecting as well as accepting salvation.
First you should prove it is a REAL offer...good luck
I was thinking about this one.
The question is asked
(Matthew 19:16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
The offer is made and the conditions laid out.
(Matthew 19:21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
The answer: Rejection.
(Matthew 19:22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Was the rejection because the rich young ruler had the power either accept or reject.
That isn't what Jesus says next.
(Matthew 19:24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
The conditions to be met were as hard to meet as a camel going through the eye of a needle.
In fact Jesus says that it is impossible with man.
(Matthew 19:26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
We conclude that if we have entered into the kingdom of God that it is because God has done for us that which was impossible for us to do.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:19:44 PM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
|
Odeliya -
Let me turn the tables and ask you to repeat each example
except the people have no desire to stop and don't even think
what they are doing is sinful.
Does that change anything?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:22:11 PM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
|
Manna -
Do you believe Perseverance of the Saints.
If so, please explain your view of sanctification.
Do you think holiness is a guarantee?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 9:24:52 PM
|
|
|
rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
My "all" is every man because I think God so loved the world, meaning all mankind.
Your "ALL" really doesn't matter friend...
All is the greater part: when ALL is not all
Matthew 3:5 (King James Version)
5Then went out to him Jerusalem, and all Judaea, and all the region round about Jordan,
Matthew 8:34 (King James Version)
34And, behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw him, they besought him that he would depart out of their coasts.
Mark 1:33 (King James Version)
33And all the city was gathered together at the door.
John 10:8 (King James Version)
8All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
Matthew 10:22 (King James Version)
22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Matthew 21:26 (King James Version)
26But if we shall say, Of men; we fear the people; for all hold John as a prophet.
Matthew 24:9 (King James Version)
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake
Luke 15:1 (King James Version)
1Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
1 Corinthians 9:19 (King James Version)
19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
1 Corinthians 9:22 (King James Version)
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
Colossians 1:28 (King James Version)
28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Genesis 24:10 (King James Version)
10And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand:
Joel 2:28 (King James Version)
28And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh;
Luke 3:6 (King JamesVersion)
6And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Wow, do you have all that in your head or just keep is loaded up for cut and paste?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 10:25:42 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
SophiesLadder,
quote:
If it’s not appropriate, explain why it’s not. But if the shoe fits….
I did explain in my post.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 10:29:33 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
tdd1975,
quote:
I was thinking about this one.
The question is asked
(Matthew 19:16) And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
The offer is made and the conditions laid out.
(Matthew 19:21) Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
The answer: Rejection.
(Matthew 19:22) But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.
Was the rejection because the rich young ruler had the power either accept or reject.
That isn't what Jesus says next.
(Matthew 19:24) And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
The conditions to be met were as hard to meet as a camel going through the eye of a needle.
In fact Jesus says that it is impossible with man.
(Matthew 19:26) But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
We conclude that if we have entered into the kingdom of God that it is because God has done for us that which was impossible for us to do.
Well, that is the way it is..........Jesus said it is. 
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 10/15/2008 10:56:57 PM
|
|
|
KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
|
SophiesLadder,
quote:
Well, if I merely wanted to score a quick point, I would say, precisely so, my point is made – the very use of the word WILL implies the freedom / ability to act, because if the that ability was not present, the proper statement would be rendered CAN NOT COME. (Merriam, will: used to express…choice) However, I believe the original text is simply “ïõê Ýñ÷åôáé” meaning “comes not” and I don’t believe that is decisive in determining where it is compelled or freely done. However, other verses such as “Whosoever will….” would do just as well.
I dont think it really scores a quick point.
The word "will" does not imply freedom unless we can somehow prove that the human will is free from a sin nature. The thing is, its not free from a sin nature. Its just how all people come into the world and we cannot choose to change that. It is a fixed.....it is a given.....it is determined to be and that is how it is.
The human will or nature is a sinful one. Who can escape that? No one. People are just born like that no matter how much people think it should not be that way or its not fair. Its just how things are.
I believe that all people have a sin nature and by nature they sin.
A person that does no evil may possibly come into the Light, but as for sinners......they will not.
If we change the text to read like this;
20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, but might come to the Light if they will to do so.
Then it shows the human will may go "either or"......or "this way or that".
As the verdict stands......evil people will not come into the Light.
Sinners avoid the Light and do not come to it of their own will.
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
|
|
| | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
