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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:22:30 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
Even if UMCBEE did handle the text poorly (and I'm not saying he did)
there is no excuse for saying what you did.
quote:
The truth is he handled the text very poorly. Unless we get a handle on a text we just dont have a handle on it. I was told that 2 Corinthians 4:1-7 only refers to Paul and the Apostles.
Thats your opinion KJB : the truth is 2 Cor 1:12 thru 7:16 is Paul's explanation of his ministry (Apology) . Of course it contains precepts that we can apply to ourselves ; but that in no way changes the text nor the context .
I've read plenty of your interpretations that as of truth , you have handled very poorly .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 10:36:48 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
It will take a little while for me to get back to answering your post cuz I gots some things going on.
One point though.
quote:
Paul's ministry does not apply to me , as Paul says our gospel v. 3 does not apply to me : it applies to the gospel given to Paul by divine revelation . It was not given to me as it was to Paul . Maybe you think God gave it to you just like He gave it to Paul .
Its abundantly clear that you have no case to argue
Why did God do that to Paul instead of letting Paul use his free-will?
Favoritism?
KJB
That question makes no sense : what does God giving divine revelation to Paul have anything to do with free-will ?
Do you even imagine that Paul was not willing to be an apostle and receive divine revelation from God ?
Do you not know Paul's testimony to before king Agrippa ? Paul testifies to the king concerning the heavenly vision on the road to Damascus Whereupon O king Agrippa , I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision .
Paul was freely willing to be God's apostle : For if I do this thing willingly , I have a reward : but if against my will , a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 10:57:35 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Bee
quote:
Paul's ministry does not apply to me , as Paul says our gospel v. 3 does not apply to me : it applies to the gospel given to Paul by divine revelation . It was not given to me as it was to Paul . Maybe you think God gave it to you just like He gave it to Paul .
Its abundantly clear that you have no case to argue
quote:
Why did God do that to Paul instead of letting Paul use his free-will?
Favoritism?
KJB
(1 Timothy 1:15) This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
(1 Timothy 1:16) Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might show forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
PAT'TERN, n.
1. An original or model proposed for imitation;
Paul himself said that his conversion is to be used as a pattern to all of us who have believed after him.
(Galatians 1:15) But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
His conversion is a pattern of every conversion.
Thats absurd : name one other person in Scripture or anywhere else that patterned Paul's experience on the road .
The pattern described is that if Jesus Christ has saved the worst sinner , He is more than able to save any sinner .
Furthermore the pattern was to show forth Christ's longsuffering ; the pattern shows Christ's patience with the sinner .
The verse could be read as : But I obtained mercy for this reason : that in my case as the worst sinner Christ Jesus might demonstrate the fullest of patience , as an example for those about to believe on Him for eternal life .
The pattern is a pattern of Christ's longsuffering , not a pattern of every conversion .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 11:18:35 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
That question makes no sense : what does God giving divine revelation to Paul have anything to do with free-will ?
Do you even imagine that Paul was not willing to be an apostle and receive divine revelation from God ?
Do you not know Paul's testimony to before king Agrippa ? Paul testifies to the king concerning the heavenly vision on the road to Damascus Whereupon O king Agrippa , I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision .
Paul was freely willing to be God's apostle : For if I do this thing willingly , I have a reward : but if against my will , a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me .
OH! Buzzy nailed it pretty good. what happen to Paulie doesnt prove he got converted against his will.
I quarantee you, precious brother KJ- as in there are people i actually personally know- some could have been given divine revelation, heard the voice of God speaking directly, blindness, cured of blindness, etc, etc, and still reject Him.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:08:14 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
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Field report update, ladies and gents:
I just talked to a nonbelieving friend who confirmed that all the manipulations above would be written off by him as lightning strike , consequent hallucinations, and a known to medical science case of temporarily loss of vision.
They say "There r no atheists in foxholes"- sheer bs. There are. It;s just people that will grasp at straws and resort to anything including prayer to all known divine beings just to save their donkey.
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to.
All right, it’s a borrowed laptop I m using, so I got to get off.
Love to all, God bless.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:25:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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Thank you Bee for answering my questions.
I am baffled why the determinists ignore them.
I can't help but wonder if it is because they realize their
answers will not be consistent with the character of God.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:32:28 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Field report update, ladies and gents:
I just talked to a nonbelieving friend who confirmed that all the manipulations above would be written off by him as lightning strike , consequent hallucinations, and a known to medical science case of temporarily loss of vision.
They say "There r no atheists in foxholes"- sheer bs. There are. It;s just people that will grasp at straws and resort to anything including prayer to all known divine beings just to save their donkey.
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to.
All right, it’s a borrowed laptop I m using, so I got to get off.
Love to all, God bless.
Sorry but an hallucination is a vision by one person whom no one else has seen. That's what makes it imaginary. So calling either Jesus in the flesh, His miracles, or the Holy Spirit an hallucination is a misnomer because he has been seen by many, and thus in invalid argument. Sorry.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:41:55 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I quarantee you, precious brother KJ- as in there are people i actually personally know- some could have been given divine revelation, heard the voice of God speaking directly, blindness, cured of blindness, etc, etc,
and still reject Him.
Dear Odeliya - you silly girl...............they weren't chosen!
Your dare to put the "ALL" in "ALL"?
quote:
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to. Actually, I think the point of Paul was
that God can use anybody, no matter who they are.
You know, 1Cor 1:27-29 type of things.
And who did Paul become?
No matter, he thought he was the "chief of all sinners".
As for whether Paul was convertible?
The point is anybody can be saved, even Paul, the
"Chief Jesus Hater and Persecutor of All Things Christian".
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 12:48:27 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
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From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncherquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
All God is personally doing, is something He must do to out of necessity from the eternally fixed order.
God is bound by the fixity of the order which He created.
The whole of creation is only a clock which is winding down.
All God is personally doing, is something He must do to out of necessity from the eternally fixed order.
God is bound by the fixity of the order which He created.
The whole of creation is only a clock which is winding down.
Right from The Holy Writ...Yippee !
Job 14:5 (King James Version)
5Seeing his days are determined, the number of his months are with thee, thou hast appointed his bounds that he cannot pass;
Job 14:5 (Amplified Bible)
5Since a man's days are already determined, and the number of his months is wholly in Your control, and he cannot pass the bounds of his allotted time- There was surely a time before it was all determined.
quote:
All God is personally doing, is something He must do to out of necessity from the eternally fixed order.
God is bound by the fixity of the order which He created.
The whole of creation is only a clock which is winding down.
This should have been familiar to some...
Acts 17:26 (King James Version)
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; There was surely a time before it was all determined.
quote:
All God is personally doing, is something He must do to out of necessity from the eternally fixed order.
God is bound by the fixity of the order which He created.
The whole of creation is only a clock which is winding down.
This should have been familiar to some...
Acts 17:26 (King James Version)
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; All God is personally doing, is something He must do to out of necessity from the eternally fixed order.
God is bound by the fixity of the order which He created.
The whole of creation is only a clock which is winding down.
This should have been familiar to some...
Acts 17:26 (King James Version)
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
quote:
If God is not in ABSOLUTE & TOTAL control...
then tell me what power is greater than Him ?
Even creation is fixed and determined in it's scope. I'm sure you think that God controlled you to ask that.
quote:
Job 38:9-11 (New King James Version)
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
'This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!'
Psalm 74:17 (King James Version)
17Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter.
Psalm 148:4-6 (King James Version)
4Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
5Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
6He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.
Proverbs 8:27-29 (New American Standard Bible)
27"When He (A)established the heavens, I was there,
When (B)He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,
28When He made firm the skies above,
When the springs of the deep became fixed,
29When (C)He set for the sea its boundary
So that the water would not transgress His command,
When He marked out (D)the foundations of the earth;
God is precise, exact, and perfectly defined !!!
In Him dwells no randomness whatsoever ! And you are nothing but a piece of eqiupment that is winding down.
You're only a pawn in His grand game of solitare.
If He would have no regard for Judas or Pharaoh, what makes you so sure of His regard for you?
I await you answer as I still await your answer for the Post #: 195.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 1:24:29 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Thank you Bee for answering my questions.
I am baffled why the determinists ignore them.
I can't help but wonder if it is because they realize their
answers will not be consistent with the character of God.
You are welcome .
I don't hear the determinists talking very much about God's character ; they seem stuck oh God's sovereignty , as if God's character is irrevelant to His actions .
That aside , honest answers to your questions might be contradictory to the theory of determinism .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 1:37:20 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1768
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Field report update, ladies and gents:
I just talked to a nonbelieving friend who confirmed that all the manipulations above would be written off by him as lightning strike , consequent hallucinations, and a known to medical science case of temporarily loss of vision.
They say "There r no atheists in foxholes"- sheer bs. There are. It;s just people that will grasp at straws and resort to anything including prayer to all known divine beings just to save their donkey.
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to.
All right, it’s a borrowed laptop I m using, so I got to get off.
Love to all, God bless.
Sorry but an hallucination is a vision by one person whom no one else has seen. That's what makes it imaginary. So calling either Jesus in the flesh, His miracles, or the Holy Spirit an hallucination is a misnomer because he has been seen by many, and thus in invalid argument. Sorry.
I think that Del would be refering to what her unbelieving friend's thought's are as to what Paul experienced ; not to Jesus in the flesh, His miracles, or the Holy Spirit . Therefore hallucinations would be accurate when refering to one single person ; which in this case , Del's friend was refering to one single persons experience , Paul's .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 1:40:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Thank you Bee for answering my questions.
I am baffled why the determinists ignore them.
I can't help but wonder if it is because they realize their
answers will not be consistent with the character of God.
Either that, or their theology just does NOT provide the answers for your questions or mine.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 1:42:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Thank you Bee for answering my questions.
I am baffled why the determinists ignore them.
I can't help but wonder if it is because they realize their
answers will not be consistent with the character of God.
You are welcome .
I don't hear the determinists talking very much about God's character ; they seem stuck oh God's sovereignty , as if God's character is irrevelant to His actions .
That aside , honest answers to your questions might be contradictory to the theory of determinism .
If you change the "might be" to ARE you will have hit the nail directly on the head!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 5:05:27 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
OH! Buzzy nailed it pretty good. what happen to Paulie doesnt prove he got converted against his will.
Who ever said that Paul was converted against his will?
Good gracious, where do you guys (gals) come up with these crazy things?
The point is Paul was made willing.
Now he wants to do that which he didn’t want to do before.
How many times have we said this?
Consider this text.
Heb 11:15And if indeed they had been
mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had
opportunity to return. 16But now they desire a better country, that is, a
heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God;
Paul could have disobeyed the heavenly vision if he desired to. But the reason he couldn’t is because his mind and desires had been changed by God.
The gospel changes people because it changes their hearts.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 5:12:14 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Thats absurd : name one other person in Scripture or anywhere else that patterned Paul's experience on the road .
The pattern described is that if Jesus Christ has saved the worst sinner , He is more than able to save any sinner .
Furthermore the pattern was to show forth Christ's longsuffering ; the pattern shows Christ's patience with the sinner .
The verse could be read as : But I obtained mercy for this reason : that in my case as the worst sinner Christ Jesus might demonstrate the fullest of patience , as an example for those about to believe on Him for eternal life .
The pattern is a pattern of Christ's longsuffering , not a pattern of every conversion .
And how is that pattern of Christ’s longsuffering shown?
It was shown in Paul’s conversion.
Btw. Frewillers never use the case of Paul as pattern or example of anything.
You guys always say that he is an exception to the rule not an example.
quote:
The pattern described is that if Jesus Christ has saved the worst sinner, He is more than able to save any sinner.
This I agree with. That is why election is good news.
Paul’s conversion proves that Christ is able to save even the worst of sinners as you said.
Gal 1:15But when it was the good pleasure of
God, who separated me, even from my mother’s womb, and called me
through his grace,
Every person ever converted can say exactly what Paul said here.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 5:20:43 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to.
Actually, I think the point of Paul was
that God can use anybody, no matter who they are.
You know, 1Cor 1:27-29 type of things.
And who did Paul become?
No matter, he thought he was the "chief of all sinners".
As for whether Paul was convertible?
The point is anybody can be saved, even Paul, the
"Chief Jesus Hater and Persecutor of All Things Christian".
So the reason you guys are saved and others are not is because you are convertable and they are not, huh?
Maybe Paul should have said.
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save convertable sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:00:28 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
Odeliya:Field report update, ladies and gents:
I just talked to a nonbelieving friend who confirmed that all the manipulations above would be written off by him as lightning strike , consequent hallucinations, and a known to medical science case of temporarily loss of vision.
Carico:
Sorry but an hallucination is a vision by one person whom no one else has seen. That's what makes it imaginary. So calling either Jesus in the flesh, His miracles, or the Holy Spirit an hallucination is a misnomer because he has been seen by many, and thus in invalid argument. Sorry.
So Butch said he would have dimissed Paul's experience- if he were subjected to it- as hallucination, someone else would have dismissied it as smth. else, and those who seen Jesus in the flesh, His miracles, or the Holy Spirit and still didnt believe dismissed it for miriad other reasons.
My point and Bee (as i understand his point)was to prove that Paul's case doesn't disprove that he actually wanted to be converted. To those who dont want to be converted - even if they were put thru the same experience as Paul or any other experience -they still wouldnt have, never ,believed.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:04:48 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Paul could have disobeyed the heavenly vision if he desired to. But the reason he couldn’t is because his mind and desires had been changed by God.
 dear TD, that - if regeneration preceeds faith -is a big part of whole C/ A debate, isnt it?
quote:
Btw. Frewillers never use the case of Paul as pattern or example of anything.
You guys always say that he is an exception to the rule not an example.
if i can speak for freewillers - no, i dont think of him as an exception. I just used his example to show that his case doesnt disprove FW.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:14:31 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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Does anyone know why Paul hated Christian?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:26:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
The pattern described is that if Jesus Christ has saved the worst sinner, He is more than able to save any sinner.
This I agree with. That is why election is good news.
But NOT to those "passed over", NOT chosen, "prepared for destruction", for whom Christ chose NOT to die for. Bummer.
The "good news" seems rather selective.
In free will theology, the Good News is that Christ died for everyone, so that whosoever believes, WILL NOT perish, but have eternal life.
Even though many will NOT believe this, the news is nevertheless very good!
What isn't "good" is that many will not believe. But that doesn't change the goodness of the Good News.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:31:53 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
quote:
quote:
Bottom line-I insist that Paul deep in his heart was “convertable”. he wanted to.
Actually, I think the point of Paul was
that God can use anybody, no matter who they are.
You know, 1Cor 1:27-29 type of things.
And who did Paul become?
No matter, he thought he was the "chief of all sinners".
As for whether Paul was convertible?
The point is anybody can be saved, even Paul, the
"Chief Jesus Hater and Persecutor of All Things Christian".
So the reason you guys are saved and others are not is because you are convertable and they are not, huh?
You missed the point, which is, if Paul, the worst sinner is "convertable", then everyone is, as well. Only in calvinism does anyone think that there are "non-convertables".
quote:
Maybe Paul should have said.
The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save convertable sinners, of whom I am the foremost.
Who did Paul say that Christ came to save? Sinners. Who are the sinners? Just the "elect"? No, everyone is "under sin" (Rom 3:9) and "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23).
What Paul wrote shows that Christ died for everyone.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:36:48 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Does anyone know why Paul hated Christian?
Paul was a very zealous Pharisee, and they viewed any human who claimed to be God, or His Son, to be guilty of the most heineous crime of blasphemy, punishable by death.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 6:51:19 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 402
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
My point and Bee (as i understand his point)was to prove that Paul's case doesn't disprove that he actually wanted to be converted. To those who dont want to be converted - even if they were put thru the same experience as Paul or any other experience -they still wouldnt have, never ,believed.
(Acts 9:1) But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest
(Acts 9:2) and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem.
Del,
This does not describe someone who wants to be saved.
But speaking of Paul,
Sense we know that Paul wasn't hallucinating. I have a question.
(Acts 22:9) Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me.
Why didn't the men traveling with Paul understand what was being said?
Could it be because this was an effectual call meant only for Paul?
Could it be that all of Jesus' sheep are called with an effectual call meant just for them?
(John 10:3) To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
(John 10:4) When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 7:27:33 PM
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Diolectic
Posts: 644
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Does anyone know why Paul hated Christian? Paul was a very zealous Pharisee, and they viewed any human who claimed to be God, or His Son, to be guilty of the most heinous crime of blasphemy, punishable by death. Actualy, the a big thing was that God's Messiah to be crucified was unthinkable.
Gal 3:13 "Cursed is everyone having been hung on a tree;" Deut. 21:23.
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