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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 8:45:38 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
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tdd1975,
Many good posts there! 
quote:
(Acts 22:9) Now those who were with me saw the light but did not understand the voice of the one who was speaking to me.
It is the same thing that had taken place with Peter.
Jesus asks;
"Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
quote:
Could it be that all of Jesus' sheep are called with an effectual call meant just for them?
(John 10:3) To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
(John 10:4) When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.
Here is some pretty neat text;
4You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world.
5They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
6We are from God, and whoever knows God listens to us; but whoever is not from God does not listen to us.
19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
20We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true.
Here is some great text on prayer that free-willers should think about;
14This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
That is because the prayer of a righteous man avails much.
The righteous live by faith. They have faith in God and His will.
tdd1975,
It is a pleasure reading your posts.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:31:12 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
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Odeliya,
quote:
I quarantee you, precious brother KJ- as in there are people i actually personally know- some could have been given divine revelation, heard the voice of God speaking directly, blindness, cured of blindness, etc, etc, and still reject Him.
The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the Lord; he guides it wherever he pleases.
God turns the hearts of kings as if they are less than silly putty in His mighty hands.
A human heart is simply no match at all for God.
Who would ever think that the One that made hearts could not also turn them one way or another?
I guarantee that all the people you know personally are no match at all if God decides to turn their hearts towards Him.
If He that fashioned and hangs the universe wills to turn a mere human heart....I guarantee it will turn.
Gently instruct those who oppose the truth.
Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.
Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap.
For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 9:50:33 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
Odeliya,
quote:
I quarantee you, precious brother KJ- as in there are people i actually personally know- some could have been given divine revelation, heard the voice of God speaking directly, blindness, cured of blindness, etc, etc, and still reject Him.
The king’s heart is like a stream of water directed by the Lord; he guides it wherever he pleases.
God turns the hearts of kings as if they are less than silly putty in His mighty hands.
A human heart is simply no match at all for God.
Who would ever think that the One that made hearts could not also turn them one way or another?
I guarantee that all the people you know personally are no match at all if God decides to turn their hearts towards Him.
If He that fashioned and hangs the universe wills to turn a mere human heart....I guarantee it will turn.
Gently instruct those who oppose the truth.
Perhaps God will change those people’s hearts, and they will learn the truth.
Then they will come to their senses and escape from the devil’s trap.
For they have been held captive by him to do whatever he wants.
KJB
Amen, brother....
Isaiah 40:13-14 Who hath directed the spirit of the Lord, or being his counseller hath taught him? 14 With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 48:13 Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
John
Isaiah 14:24 The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 10:16:37 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
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rwe2156,
quote:
The real question is why has God allowed Satan to blind them?
Because he knows they will never believe? I knew you reject this.
You keep leading to and asking the same question over and over again.
Look at this text found here http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%209;&version=51;
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
I dont have any problem with God doing that........do you?
So it is God who decides to show mercy.
We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Read that very carefully. I still do not have any problem with God doing that......what about you?
For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
Other translations actually claim that God raised up the Pharaoh (a human being) to show His power.
That means God started out with thought on the matter and thought turned into matter as a baby grew up just as God had planned to raise him up into a king to be destroyed.
God did it on purpose and with purpose. It says so.
His purpose had nothing to do with giving the Pharaoh any free-will, glory, mercy, or kindness.
His purpose was to raise up a human being so that He could display His power in the human being.
How did He display His power in the Pharaoh?
It was by moving his heart. That is how He did it.
He raised the human being up to be a Pharaoh and controlled his heart just like it will clearly explain in the next text.
Here is the very next text that follows;
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
I do not have any problem with that at all. None at all.
Do you have a problem with God choosing to show mercy to some and choosing to harden the hearts of others so they wont listen?
Think about it carefully.
Here is that text again;
So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
I have NO problem with God for doing that.
He could choose to harden the hearts of billions upon billions of people so that they refuse to listen and I have NO problem with it.
If you have a problem with God choosing to harden the hearts of human beings so they refuse to listen (even if He uses Satan to do it) I suggest that you change your mind on the issue. 
It would be the smart thing to do if it is at all possible.
Paul knew that people would ask the same question you ask over and over and that is why he gave a response;
Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding?
Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
Some people ask that and all sorts of similar things.
Why does God blame people for not responding when they have simply done what He made them do?
I dont have a problem with Him doing that. Do you?
I dont even think it is my job to question God on such matters as if I am His judge on whether I think it is good for Him to do such things.
It is never wrong for God to do such things because all things are His.
It all belongs to Him.
If He thinks it is good to choose to harden hearts so that they refuse to listen who are you and I to argue or judge Him?
quote:
The real question is why has God allowed Satan to blind them?
The real answer to your repeated question is that in the grand scheme of things it is none of our bees-wax.
That is His bees-wax on whom He chooses to have mercy on and whom He chooses to harden.
How hard He makes them and how soft He makes them is also His bees-wax.
I dont seem to have any problem with God doing whatever He wants with His creatures........do you?
He made it all and it is His bees-wax.
Paul gives more insight.
No, don’t say that.
Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God?
Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
Many people will gnash their teeth at that.
Many people will read that text and if they have to take it for what it is actually saying they will hate God for it.
They will claim things like; "I will never love and worship a God that does that to people."....."Such a God is a monster and not worthy of my attention and worship."......."That kind of God is evil."......and the list goes on.
I have heard such things more times than I can count.
I can only tell you this;
I have no problem with God doing those things just as it is described in the text.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 10:30:08 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
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SovereignIsHe,
quote:
Isaiah 40:13-14
Who hath directed the spirit of the Lord, or being his counseller hath taught him?
With whom took he counsel, and who instructed him, and taught him in the path of judgment, and taught him knowledge, and shewed to him the way of understanding?
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isaiah 48:13
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.
Excellent Scripture text!
I just love when God speaks to Job;
1 The LORD said to Job:
2 "Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!"
3 Then Job answered the LORD :
4 "I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5 I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more."
6 Then the LORD spoke to Job out of the storm:
7 "Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
8 "Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
9 Do you have an arm like God's,
and can your voice thunder like his?
10 Then adorn yourself with glory and splendor,
and clothe yourself in honor and majesty.
11 Unleash the fury of your wrath,
look at every proud man and bring him low,
12 look at every proud man and humble him,
crush the wicked where they stand.
13 Bury them all in the dust together;
shroud their faces in the grave.
14 Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
Sort of reminds me of my place in the grand plan.........
Take care,
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/21/2008 10:59:22 PM
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shemaromans
Posts: 3905
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Thank you Bee for answering my questions.
I am baffled why the determinists ignore them.
I can't help but wonder if it is because they realize their
answers will not be consistent with the character of God.
You are welcome .
I don't hear the determinists talking very much about God's character ; they seem stuck oh God's sovereignty , as if God's character is irrevelant to His actions .
That aside , honest answers to your questions might be contradictory to the theory of determinism .
I've actually written about God's character many times. More of than not, it's been in an attempt to get some of the FW camp to remember that God's character includes more than just love.
_____________________________
"But as for me, it is good to be near God." Psalm 73:28
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 12:08:18 AM
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Theophile2
Posts: 216
Joined: 8/7/2008
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Diolectic, ref your post ...
My apologies for taking so long to respond, but I work long hours during the week.
Thank you for working to help me understand the Semi-Pelagian Theology (SPT).
However, I am still very confused. Please do not look at this post as trying to be difficult, I'm just trying to understand the SPT.
But let me first start by responding to your response to my use of Job 14:4:
quote:
quote:
- Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? There is not one.
Question: If all humans are fully unrighteous from the start, and if all of our pretenses of righteousness is filthy, and if it is impossible to bring a something clean out of something unclean
One must be careful not to form doctrine from Job.
Job's friends were in error, why would one use what they say to build an argument?
I very rarely ever make the mistake of taking a single verse and creating my own doctrine out of it. Job 14:4 is not a statement by Job’s friends, it is Job speaking himself, which begins in 12:1 and ends in 14:22. Since quoting Job makes you uneasy, I could have easily quoted Jesus who effectively said the same thing in Mt 7:18 (see also Ro 8:9) but I chose Job because it was more concise. 
But as I mentioned, I'm still confused on a few things. I rearranged some of your responses not to take them out of context (we can go back and re-read through the link above), but to place them next to each other for comparison:
quote:
quote:
Question: Where does the righteousness come from,
From the act of obedience of the command(Act 17:30).
Acts 17:30 states: Truly, then, God overlooking the times of ignorance, now He strictly commands all men everywhere to repent.
The command is repentance.
But you also say:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Since righteousness only comes by faith as from Abraham's example.
Question: So I'm confused, does righteousness come from the act of faith, or the act of repentance?
More statements on righteousness:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Don't think that one is born unrighteous, that would take his responsibility of fault away.
Surly a man is unrighteous before the having faith.
Since unrighteousness is chosen. Man is able to acknowledge his unrighteousness to believe God.
I would offer that Reformed Theology (RT) would say that righteousness is not from man but is imputed and comes from Christ:
Php 3:9 and be found in Him; not having my own righteousness, which is of the Law, but through the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith
Question: If according to SPT man is NOT born unrighteous, then the SPT assertion that God can not give someone salvation because they are unrighteous seems to need further explanation. If as SPT states from your quote above, unrighteousness is a conscious choice, then at some point a person has to be conscious of his/her righteousness, know about the Gospel message, and chose sin instead. Why wouldn't God give the person salvation before choosing sin, if we start out righteous?
quote:
quote:
Ro 3:11-12 no one understands; no one seeks for God. (12) All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.
One may seek truth & find Christ(God) in the process.
So this one confuses me - the SPT response to Ro3:11-12 is that on the contrary, on can seek after God, but then stated that faith is not seeking after God, just acknowledging a truth and acting on it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
The act of faith is not the act of seeking after God, but an acknowledgement of the truth and acting on that truth when presented.
Question: So faith is not seeking after God, just acting on the truth ... then after faith is expressed, one acts on that truth ... what is this acting on the truth - is that the seeking after God done after the faith statement?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
The choice to put one's faith in/on Christ does not "earn" God's favor, but it is our reasonable service, our responsibility, our mandate, which is nothing to boast about.
However, making a statement of faith would be a "work" that is not contrary to salvation, but our reasonable service, our duty, our mandate, our responsibility...ect...
All faith is doing the reasonable service which is expected from all mankind, it is not earning salvation but submitting to the responsibility, duty, mandate & command of God.
Sorry, but I’m having a hard time finding a verse explaining faith as a reasonable service, responsibility, or mandate. Can you help me find one?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Since God wants all men everywhere to repent, God expects them to. Since God expects them to, it makes sense that they are able.
Jn 1:13 who were born, not of bloods, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but were born of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
The act of faith is only agreeing to the truth which is evident to all mankind:
1: Their is a God
2: He created us
3: Each individual has willfully sinned against God
4: Each individual is under condemnation by their own fault(not because of Adam)
5: Jesus is a real man in history who is truly God
6: He did something in plain view to atone for all mankind’s willful sins
If one does not know these, one is able to acknowledge these went these truths are presented.
All mankind is able to obey the truth while being unrighteous.
Regarding “not because of Adam” perhaps you can help me understand Ro 5:12-19. For the rest of the SPT view expressed in this quote, I think I'm going to need help understanding these verses from the SPT explanation.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Rom 1:21 Because, knowing God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were thankful. But they became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
Jn 12:37-38 But though He had done so many miracles before them, yet they did not believe on Him, (38) so that the saying of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spoke, "Lord, who has believed our report? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"
quote:
quote:
Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.
Question: what is the gift of God in this sentence? Being saved, or faith?
Answer is:
For by grace you have been saved through faith...
The whole phrase.
Thus we could accurately paraphrase, For by grace you have been saved through faith, and the fact that salvation works this way is not of yourselves, it is God’s gift.
I found this part of SPT very interesting. I would offer that RT would agree 100% ... both faith and salvation are gifts from God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Let me ask you few questions:
Knowing that to be born again(regenerated) means being a child of God & all children of God have eternal life.
Or how could God have an unrighteous son if one is born again before he has faith?
How dos one remain unrighteous and be born again until he has faith?
Rom 5:10 For if when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Eph 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for His great love with which He loved us (5) (even when we were dead in sins) has made us alive together with Christ (by grace you are saved), (6) and has raised us up together and made us sit together in the heavenlies in Christ Jesus, (7) so that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. (8) For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, (9) not of works, lest anyone should boast.
Not the most technical answer, but I need to get some sleep.
Blessings ...
_____________________________
"Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason ... my conscience is captive to the Word of God." - Martin Luther, Diet of Worms, April 2, 1521.
*** Sola Fide, Sola Gratia, Sola Scriptura, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria ***
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 1:17:03 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
In the bible we can see God using means. In our salvation God uses the gospel to save His elect. Just like in everyday providence God uses ordinary means. He gives you a job to give you your daily bread. He gives medicine and doctors to give you good health. He gives you the bible, the preacher and the church to strengthen your soul. He causes things to happen through the use of things, men and event.
There are also some times that He would skip using ordinary means. He can also work out providence without the use of ordinary means. He can just put mud in one's eye and heal his blindness. Use only a few pieces of fish and bread to feed five thousand. Part the red sea. Walk on water. Still a storm. Revive a dead person. Very rarely you will hear God healing a person despite the lack healthcare, but it happens, miracle do happen in the hands of God.
In God's plan, He uses means and according to His own counsel it is necessary. He sent the Lord Jesus as a propitiation for us which is a means to turn His wrath away from the sinner but by His own good wisdom He required innocent blood to be spilled for us. He could have declared us innocent by just a word but He intended to use humans to effect a plan of salvation.
With regards to the use of the gospel, He could have not needed any evangelists to spread the gospel and magically change people's mind and make them believe in Him. But it is according to His counsel that we need to hear the gospel in order to effect a response. The use of the gospel was deemed necessary by God so that His voice might be heard by His sheep. The words "How can they believe if they do not hear" is the Lord's way of saying that His plan for salvation is effected by the the foolishness of the gospel.
All of what you say here is true, but does not answer my questions.
Can any of the elect NOT believe? Calvinism says NO. Can any of the elect EVER be in danger of "dying in their sins"? Calvinism says NO. So, again, what's the truth: what Jesus told them, that they WILL die in their sins UNLESS they believe in Him, or what calvinism claims? Both cannot be true. They are in opposition.
If you say that all these are true, then you are close to the answer you seek. You are close to understanding the true phenomenon of faith. However, if you believe that God does not secure the salvation of the elect by giving them faith, then you are saying that God will not take every effort to save His elect.
There is replete scriptural declarations that man is incapable which you will not acknowelege. There lies the fault of your reasoning. By not considering the hardness of man's heart and inability to believe, you are opening yourself to a false hope that your faith was born out of your natural heart. The heart cannot believe naturally, nor understand naturally things that are Spiritual.
This has been explained thoroughly but you are still unwilling to recognize this.
Why would God need to warn even the elect? I have explained that all that will be saved need to believe the warnings of the Gospel. Unless we believe we shall not be saved. But never was that a natural occurence to man. Therefore the majority of men do not believe. The faith that we see with our eyes was a result of supernatural workings in us.
WE cannot stir ourselves to believe something that does not naturally add up. We hear the gospel and we call it foolishness. Where in that can be understood that man is still capable of believing? How can one believe if one can not truly understand spiritual things?
Let us take Ezra as an example in Ezra 7. He needed to open his mouth in order to ask of King Artaxerxes to be gracious to his request to adorn the Temple of God. If you were liken it to the gospel, men need to warn all, the elect and the non-elect as the evangelist is not omnescient who will be granted the ears to hear. Hence my explanation of God's use of mean to be coincident to the opening of their hearts.
Here Ezra asked the King but it was not his words that opened the heart of the king. It is God.
Ezra 7:6 The king had granted him everything he asked, for the hand of the LORD his God was on him.
The King was generous freely giving his wealth to the Israelites. If a learned king is unable to be generous on a temporal level apart from the grace, it behooves us to see that spiritual things are never naturally understood by any unregenerate.
Ezra extatic of the king's generosity, did not commend the king to God for his free will but glorified God instead because he saw the truth of God's inner workings in man.
27 Praise be to the LORD, the God of our fathers, who has put it into the king's heart to bring honor to the house of the LORD in Jerusalem in this way 28 and WHO has extended his good favor to me before the king and his advisers and all the king's powerful officials.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 1:40:51 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Why would God rejoice when a sinner repents?
If man was unable, why would God command and wait for him to repent?
How can God "desire" anything if he determines everything?
Just because God is not surprised by anything doesn't mean
he determines all of our choices.
No tricks, I just simply don't see how it can be true.
Did God not rejoice when He saw His creation? If faith is God's work does God not have any reason to rejoice? If God was happy to see His work and called it good, why would He not rejoice to see the results of His work in faith and call it good as well?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 1:56:18 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
umcbee,
It will take a little while for me to get back to answering your post cuz I gots some things going on.
One point though.
quote:
Paul's ministry does not apply to me , as Paul says our gospel v. 3 does not apply to me : it applies to the gospel given to Paul by divine revelation . It was not given to me as it was to Paul . Maybe you think God gave it to you just like He gave it to Paul .
Its abundantly clear that you have no case to argue
Why did God do that to Paul instead of letting Paul use his free-will?
Favoritism?
KJB
KJB,
Thanks for reminding us this. Paul on the way to Damascus was never given a chance to make a choice. If the FW proponents are correct, He was coerced by God to believe Him!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 5:48:20 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Why would Christ tell those He KNEW were condemned how not to be condemned when, again, He KNEW they already were? According to the free will philosophy this certainly seems like taunting.
Oh, so this is the question. Here is the REASON He told them what He told them. Are you listening? Paying attention? Good.
The REASON Jesus told those who would NEVER believe how to avoid dying in their sin is BECAUSE they were ABLE to apply the solution, even though He knew they would not, Yep, just as I figured - no answer to the question just free will rhetoric about ability. You haven't answer WHY Christ would tell those He KNEW were condemned how NOT to be condemned. Why can't you answer the question? Since you don't recognize an answer when it is place before you, there is no need for further discussion. It is obvious that you closed your eyes to my answer. But I will explain it in other words for your benefit. By all means "place it before me", I would enjoy the novelty of actually seeing your answer.
quote:
The reason Jesus told those He knew wouldn't believe is because they could believe. He was warning them HOW to avoid dying in their sins. As expected, you've placed absolutely nothing before anyone. If Jesus KNEW they wouldn't, couldn't believe, WHY did He tell them HOW to be saved when He KNEW they never would be saved?
Why "warn" them about HOW to avoid damnation when Christ KNEW they would NEVER avoid damnation?
You have not answered that question. Do you have an answer?
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 5:50:38 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Anyway, you do realize that the free will philosophy results in Christ simply taunting those individuals He KNOWS are condemned? Why is that? Why would He do such a thing? Nice try in your feeble attempt to twist my charge against the calvinists against me, but it won't work. Problem is you can't even manage a "feeble" answer to what you consider a "feeble" question, why is that? Are you speaking of my WHY question to the calvinists? If so, I gave the FW answer when I first gave that question. Where were you? You're one to ask. Why bother replying when you don't even read what you're replying to?....that's really weird. You've gone way beyond dodging, now claiming absolute blindness because you apparently can't answer.
One more thing, kelman. The ONLY REASON Jesus would tell those He KNOWS are condemned is because He ALSO KNOWS they WOULD avoid dying in their sins IF they believed in Him, which is something the calvinists claim cannot happen. Nope, still not answering the question unless, of course, it is your position Christ is not omniscient. Is it?
If Christ KNOWS something, the opposite CANNOT happen. So they could NOT avoid dying in their sins...so WHY did Christ tell them HOW to do something He KNEW they COULD NOT do?
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Why can't you explain WHY Jesus told those you consider not chosen for faith to believe in order to avoid dying in their sins? Your failure to answer this WHY question reveals the failure of calvinism to be a credible theology. Your ploy de jour still doesn't work...you'll need to search for another. I answered your question pages ago. Since its obvious you barely read most posts anyway, it's no wonder you "missed" it.
God could have used any means to spread the Gospel. He could have used angels or the Holy Spirit alone. But, instead He chose to spread the Gospel by means of believers. Believers follow the example of Christ and the Apostles....they bring the Word of God as Christ did without regard for who will or will not become saved. Christ did what we are to do - preach the whole Gospel to all. That is the means God chose "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 6:09:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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ORIGINAL: Eric B
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Why would I say it would be better that all the unsaved were never born since Christ never said it? He said that only of Judas. Yes, you are the one putting forth that idea - no one else has - including Christ.
You are simply attempting to argue a point no one has presented...sounds very much like a strawman. Scripture doesn't teach that because God predestined some to salvation and not others that it would have been better had these "others" not been born. Scripture doesn't teach it nor does RT. So is Christ uttering TO US empty words that have no meaning? He said that it would have been better if this one person hadnot been born. He did not say that for all other "non-elect". But according to RT, all "non-elect"s fate is just as sealed as Judas. What does the statement mean, then? First, it sounds like you're saying you don't think Christ knows whose fate is "sealed"?...but, I'm sure that's not so.
Obviously, Judas' singular sin of betrayal was in some way of a different character than all other sins. After all, it was such an act of personal treachery committed against Christ by His "friend". Other than that, I can't think of another reason, can you?
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Jesus chose someone He knew would betray Him and hang himself instead of repenting.
No, Jesus is God. With God, it is never a matter of simply knowing the future like some ultra-advanced crystal-ball fortune teller. These were events that were "certain" to happen and if certain to happen they must be preordained. And, with this particular event it cannot be argued the one doing the ordaining was God. I thought that was your point. That God chose Judas and basically made him do it; or gave him the desire and inclinations, and Judas basically gets charged with it being "his own".
If not, then there probably isn't much dispute here. The "dispute" centers around your understanding that "God...basically made him do it". God did not "make" Judas sin nor did God given him the evil desire or inclination...He didn't have to. We all sin according to our desires and inclination.....and Judas had his own reasons for doing what he did.
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Jesus had warned the Jews about an unpardonable sin (another concept rendered meaningless with unconditional reprobation), and many had already committed it; Judas included, apparently.
What you appear to be surmising is NOT the meaning of the unpardonable sin. The specific meaning was the Blasphemy against the Spirit, but there were other instances of people sealing their fate through a "seared conscience", and Judas was probably in that state. God speaks of only one sin as being one that can never be forgiven. Few have committed such sin.
As for "unconditional reprobation", Arminians/free willers have more difficulty with this doctrine than do RT does. Arminians must admit God deliberatedly creates all those knowing they will be lost. All these lost who serve no good purpose and will bring destruction upon themselves in spite of the fact God wishes to bring them all to heaven....seems rather foolish.
Better to simply accept what Scripture says about the reprobate "Why doth God find fault with the wicked? for who hath resisted His will? If He, who only can convert them, refrains from doing it, what room is there for blaming them that perish, seeing it is impossible to resist the will of the Almighty?"..."Nay, but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God?"
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Regardless [Re: "lost because they are sinners"], the way you take the passage, it is God who "made them that way", by "hardening who He will", and hence the question, "why does He yet find fault...Why have thou made me thus" We are ALL made that way until God changes the type of vessel we are; and, yes, He sovereignly does so.
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But again, I broke down that whole passage, and showed from the CONTEXT what it was all about. You now are quoting snippet by snippet, ... I simply showed you FROM the context what God's purpose of election was. Paul is not using the illustration of Jacob over Esau simply to make the point that God can choose in whatever way He wants. Rather, he uses the choice of Jacob over Esau to demonstrate what God's purpose in election is.
Your pov does not address how it is that God chooses to save by faith as opposed to works. Or rather, how does this demonstrate His purpose of mercy unless salvation by faith is as unconditional as election by birth.
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So, "how it is that God chooses to save by faith as opposed to works; or rather, how does this demonstrate His purpose of mercy" is that salvation is not in being born in the right physical nation, (nor in keeping the Law given to that nation, as they were trusting in), but by entering the spiritual "nation" of "children of God by faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:26). It has nothing to do with any contrast with any "reprobation"or preordained destruction. You still do not address the point. How does God demonstrate His purpose of mercy unless salvation by faith is as unconditional as election by birth.
Just as they had no choice into what physical nation they were born neither did they have a choice into what spiritual nation they would enter - this is how God demonstrated His mercy - in the purpose of election.
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Seems like an accurate description of Pelagianism. Most say that their free will choice is simply made based on a noetic understanding of the Gospel....where's the "grace" in that? Again, that it's not by works or inheritance. Well, if it is by anything other than the good pleasure of God - it is not grace. And, that includes any innate faith you may have.
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LOL...well, that is what they call him. Since I've given at least three reasons why God elects, why persist in saying "unknowable". Now, it is true that God does not reveal everything to us about Divine Election, or many other things for that matter, still He does reveal some information. Is it your position that you know all the reasons God does what He does? If so, you would be in violation of Scripture. If not, why condemn RT for the same? Because it's your doctrine that raises the question in the first place, not ours (we never claimed to know all the reasons, and what you're calling "some [revealed] information" does become "speculation" when you force the above discussed reprobation scheme into it as the only answer!) You're the one "forcing" reprobation, not me. Of course, the free willers say they know everything there is to know - that there are no "mysteries". All you gotta do is to once have "faith" and then forevermore you are saved - even should you become an atheist.
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You only throw the question back at us to try to prove that "our position leads to the same thing anyway", but nobody would have ever thought of that if Augustine had not tried to make a philosophy of predestination out of it. Why do you find it unfair when you are asked a similar question? And what's Augustine have to do with free willers not being able to answer the question?
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But still, this whole argument is the same sort of thing as the "foolish questions" or "philosophies" Paul tells us to avoid, that only raise disputes. Yeah, well try getting FG to understand that. He's oblivious to the absurdity of his question. I simply demonstrated his absurdity BY absurdity....but, he just doesn't get it.
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I did not say "I agree", (about "judging God" either "righteous" or otherwise); you're forcing that word as a diversion. I said "This is the point Diolectic has been trying to get across" Look, I'm not "forcing" anything. Dio was abundantly clear that God can be judged holy and righteous based on the deeds He did. And, I just as clearly told him neither he or anyone else has that right. So, as far as "diversions" are concerned you're the one trying to create them.
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You dodge the issue by bringing up killing of children. Dio and you are the ones "dodging" the issue because you refuse to answer the question. Now, if you are admitting you have no right to judge God then fine - the question is not for you. But, so far, Dio refuses to answer. And, it is a perfectly legitimate question to ask in light of the fact he says he can judge God which is, btw, exactly what he said. So, why don't you quit with your attempts at diversion - it won't work.
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What is all too clear is that you have forgotten NO ONE attributes sin to God. Doesn't your side always say "God ordains sin"? That's what I meant. God is the primary cause of sin by means of the secondary cause - man. Just as God determined the Crucifixion by sinful men who chose to do so according to their desires and inclinations.
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Hmm, are you also agreeing with Dio that Katrina was a JUDGMENT of God? No. (Even though he himself may be non-Calvinist, many Calvinists do believe things like that, and it would be very consistent with their theology of "sovereignty",and America being too full of "Pelagianism with it's human pride", "easy believism", etc.) Well, I don't know any of these "many Calvinists"....don't care either. Lots of people believe a lot of stupid things.
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Uh, why do you think the doctrine was codified at Orange?....because it was the established teaching of the then church although, of course, there were detractors....that's what it proves. It's absurd to say Augustine was simply reacting to Pelagius. He was defending the then position. No, it is well known that Augustine put his philosophical spin on a lot of doctrines. Humorous to see an Arminian criticize anyone for putting their "philosophical spin on a lot of doctrines" since this is precisely where libertarian free will doctrine was born - the philosophy of men.
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 8:28:26 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1594
Joined: 12/2/2006
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balbas,
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27 Praise be to the LORD, the God of our fathers, who has put it into the king's heart to bring honor to the house of the LORD in Jerusalem in this way 28 and WHO has extended his good favor to me before the king and his advisers and all the king's powerful officials.
There goes God again tampering with a kings mighty will. How dare He do such a thing.
Check out Ezra 1;
1 In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the LORD spoken by Jeremiah, the LORD moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and to put it in writing:
5 Then the family heads of Judah and Benjamin, and the priests and Levites—everyone whose heart God had moved—prepared to go up and build the house of the LORD in Jerusalem.
Amazing how that works!
The Lord moves Jeremiah to speak the Word of the Lord.
The Lord moves a king to make the proclamation.
The Lord moves people to obey the proclamation.
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Thanks for reminding us this. Paul on the way to Damascus was never given a chance to make a choice. If the FW proponents are correct, He was coerced by God to believe Him!
I dont think free-willers ever see the contrast at all.
As was written;
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
Free-willers have no problem at all that Paul was chosen (selected) by God before he did anything good or bad and was destined for a specific purpose.
As soon as we go to Romans 9 where it speaks of God loving and hating one human over another before they were born they start crying bloody murder.
We read about the king of Egypt and how God raised him up with real purpose for a set purpose and they all cry foul again.
18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
Somehow they keep going back to the same attitude claiming God would be unfair to harden people so they could not listen, but they never claim He was unfair for selecting Paul for his mission. 
Take care,
KJB
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Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 8:30:33 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7653
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: balbas
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
All of what you say here is true, but does not answer my questions.
Can any of the elect NOT believe? Calvinism says NO. Can any of the elect EVER be in danger of "dying in their sins"? Calvinism says NO. So, again, what's the truth: what Jesus told them, that they WILL die in their sins UNLESS they believe in Him, or what calvinism claims? Both cannot be true. They are in opposition.
If you say that all these are true, then you are close to the answer you seek.
Why haven't you just plainly answered my questions, if I'm "so close" to the answer I seek? As you noticed in my response, what you said doesn't answer my question. If you understand my question, why don't you just give a straight answer to it?
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You are close to understanding the true phenomenon of faith. However, if you believe that God does not secure the salvation of the elect by giving them faith, then you are saying that God will not take every effort to save His elect.
I disagree with your statement. God doesn't "secure the salvation of the elect by giving them faith". God DOES secure the salvation of anyone by giving them ETERNAL LIFE. Do you se the difference?
Why do you think our salvation is "secured" by His giving us faith? How does "faith" secure anything?
Our salvation is secured ONLY when we possess eternal life.
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There is replete scriptural declarations that man is incapable which you will not acknowelege
What Scripture repeatedly declares is that man is incapable of saving himself, not incapable of responding to God. Do you see the difference?
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There lies the fault of your reasoning. By not considering the hardness of man's heart and inability to believe, you are opening yourself to a false hope that your faith was born out of your natural heart. The heart cannot believe naturally, nor understand naturally things that are Spiritual.
See above for my answer to this.
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This has been explained thoroughly but you are still unwilling to recognize this.
I've explained our differences. See above.
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Why would God need to warn even the elect? I have explained that all that will be saved need to believe the warnings of the Gospel.
Yet your theology claims the "elect" were chosen (saved) from before the foundation of the world.
Answer this: do you believe the "elect" are EVER in danger of dying in their sins? My understanding of your theology leads to a NO answer. Therefore, Jesus' warning to the "pre-faith elect" is meaningless in light of calvinism. Please explain WHY His warning isn't meaningless.
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Unless we believe we shall not be saved. But never was that a natural occurence to man. Therefore the majority of men do not believe. The faith that we see with our eyes was a result of supernatural workings in us.
Answer this: is it even possible that any of the "elect" will not believe? My understanding of your theology leads to a NO answer. Therefore, Jesus' warning to the "pre-faith elect" is meaningless in light of calvinism. Please explain WHY His warning isn't meaningless.
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WE cannot stir ourselves to believe something that does not naturally add up. We hear the gospel and we call it foolishness. Where in that can be understood that man is still capable of believing? How can one believe if one can not truly understand spiritual things?
This is just reformed rhetoric. You don't address the problem of Jesus warning the "elect" or telling the "non-elect how to avoid dying in their sins.
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Let us take Ezra as an example in Ezra 7. He needed to open his mouth in order to ask of King Artaxerxes to be gracious to his request to adorn the Temple of God. If you were liken it to the gospel, men need to warn all, the elect and the non-elect as the evangelist is not omnescient who will be granted the ears to hear. Hence my explanation of God's use of mean to be coincident to the opening of their hearts.
Your argument here falls flat, because Jesus IS OMNISCIENT, unlike every other evangelist. You still haven't dealt with what Jesus said to the elect and non-elect. Don't use the excuse "evangelists are not omniscient" and must tell everyone. Jesus absolutely KNEW who were and were not of each group. And further, what He told each group makes no sense in light of your theology, and you haven't addressed any of that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/22/2008 8:36:06 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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KJB:
Who would ever think that the One that made hearts could not also turn them one way or another?
The reason for man's heart turned against God is man's own rejection.
Here's some Good News, KJB:
God commands and desires all men everywhere to repent and be saved!
He will wait for them to repent and rejoice when they repent!
Man was created with a rational mind and an ability to believe. Don't think so?
Tell is to Paul, who reasoned daily and said he would "become all things to all
men in order that even a few might be saved."
When we stop theorizing and look at reality we find this:
The major hinderance to the gospel is prosperity. The hardest people
to evangelize are wealthy, prosperous people. The poor and downtrodden
are the most receptive to the gospel because their hearts are broken
and their spirits are humble - their "pride factor" is very low.
Look at America and American Christianity and I think you will agree.
The fact is men worship God or worship idols, but man is created to worship something.
Why do you think Jesus talked about money so much? Or about the cost of being saved?
Why were the Pharisees so resistant to the gospel? Because they were not chosen?
NO! Because their hearts became hardened by their own religiosity!
The truth of Romans 1:18 is many find another "religion" and in doing so they
suppresse their "certain knowledge of God".
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