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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:09:46 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
No, it wasn't. No one "added" anything to John 8. And no one "subtracted" anything from John 8. He just won't deal with what's there.
Therefore, his post was dishonest.
No dishonesty at all!
umcbee says this,
quote:
When most evangalists preach , they are not witnessing per say , but rather preaching the message of the gospel .
However , how can a Calvinist evangalist preach to 1000 unbelievers and tell them that God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them ; when he does not even believe that to be the facts to begin with ?
He is not being true to his deepest theological beliefs , to the pillows of his theology .
You respond speaking about Calvinists;
quote:
Clearly, it is NOT the gospel message. Otherwise, that is what Jesuswould have said to the crowd in John 8:24.
quote:
But, instead, He gave the gospel to everyone. Clearly, Jesus was NOT a calvinistic evangelist.
Your response was trying to show that umcbee had it all nailed down and Calvinist preachers were not honest if they did not include things like;
God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them
I dont see any of that stuff in all of John 8..........let alone John 8:24!
You preach that all humans have the ability and Jesus did not.
Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me!
If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me?
He who belongs to God hears what God says.
The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:10:23 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Sovereign,
After a re-reading of that passage (Jer 18:7-10) and looking back at
Ex 32:14, Amos 7:1-6 and Jer 26:3, I don't think God changes his
mind in the same way we do.
Rather God changes his response based on the choice a man makes.
He doesn't change the response.. The response is in accordance with the action...
quote:
Further on in Jeremiah 19:5 he declares the Lord said the people
did something he never commanded and never entered his mind.
Right... You really believe God had/has no knowledge of it? We are back to God repenting of evil...
quote:
I just think it is clear that God responds to the free will decisions of man.
I think any god that is steered by his creation isn't much of a god and I wouldn't put any faith in him...
quote:
Arguing about whether God's foreknowledge makes them certain or not is
not the point - the point is God relates and interacts with man, who is often
stiff-necked and obstinate.
It may not for what you believe, but I don't toss it aside... Though it doesn't make what I believe look silly at times...
quote:
Stiff necked and obstinate, but possessing no free will to reject? How is it possible?
Man has free will, but what does it avail him? Nothing...
quote:
So as for "God changed his mind", lets say God retains the right to
change his original plan based on what men do as free agents.
If that's the case His council doesn't stand forever... It bend according to the whims of man...
quote:
This explains why God said he was sorry he ever created man.
Men screwed it up. It was not God's "original recipe".
Creation was subject to vanity because wanted it that way... Romans 8 I believe...
quote:
Pride, arrogance, rejection, and egotism are all qualities of man's nature
that affect our decisions within the boundaries of God's will.
They only affect the temporal... God's sovereign decrees are not subject to man's sinful nature, his free will, or even the collective free will of all of mankind... Man's free will would be like a grain of sand on the outside of Hover Dam if it were to ever burst compared to God's will...
quote:
I am constantly brought back to "Who can be saved?" and the answer
we give will reveal how we understand the character of God.
Anyone God so chooses...
quote:
Every time God justifies a sinner, his fate has changed because God's response
to that person has changed - he will go from death to life because he met the
conditions set forth and the wrathful judgment of God will not fall on him.
Did God "change his mind" - thankfully, yes!
God didn't change His mind...
For God to change His mind that would entail Him condemning that which He justified...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:23:58 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
BTW, rou’re commenting to the argument against my POV.
Read it again: The most common objection to this Molinism is the “grounding objection.” Basically, can a choice be truly free if it is known ahead of time? In other words, no one (God included) can know my choice of vanilla or chocolate until I make the choice. If a choice is determined ahead of time, then it is not free.
This is a false assumption... I highlighted the point of the comment in case you missed it. Prophecies debunk this claim that God does no know ahead of time. I'll admit to a certain naivete concerning all the various beliefs out there. But, never in my wildest imaginings would I have considered there were Christians who actually believe, despite all Scripture to the contrary, that Almighty God is not omniscient. How could they possible conclude such an abberation?
From where or from whom did such a theory originate?....we know it didn't originate with Scripture.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:29:28 PM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
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quote:
ORIGINAL: John_O
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
If God allows it then He has willed it to happen.
Which puts us right back to God is the cause of sin. A point I disagree with and a discussion I'm not ready to have.
I am in control of what my daughter has for supper. However I let her choose sometimes what she wants to eat. That doesn't make me any less in control of the menu.
You may not be willing to have that discussion; but, its seems you're right smack in the middle of it :)
RT does not deny that one way in which God controls man is through man's free choices. Just as you are the primary cause of your daughter eating what she wants; so, too, is God the primary cause of man's sin.
Your daughter, who eats according to her desires, is the secondary cause of her choosing what to eat. This would be impossible for her to do had you not first granted the permission; and, in fact, provided the "choices" she must choose from.
This seems to be your position also since you said "I am in control of what my daughter has for supper." You did not "cause" your daughter to eat what she desired by spooning the food she chose into her mouth. But, the fact, remains you are the primary cause of your daughter eating the food she "freely" chose.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:45:59 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Can you explain WHY Jesus promised to the so-called "non-elect" that they would NOT die in their sins IF they believed in Him?
Can you explain WHY you never read? 
quixote gave you a great answer.
Try to read the following before jumping to any knee jerk reaction;
21Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
What did He just tell those people? Think about it.....read it again a few times.
you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.
Do you think maybe it has more to do with God seeking and saving the lost rather than people seeking God for all the wrong reasons?
Please read the following;
22So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
25So they were saying to Him, "Who are You?" Jesus said to them, "What have I been saying to you from the beginning?
26"I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world."
Where in all of that did Jesus tell anybody they have the ability to believe Him? For you to imply that He said such a thing or even insinuated such a thing is totally dishonest.
For you to speculate that somewhere in that text He was trying to show everybody that they all have the ability to believe in Him is just that.....speculation and bad speculation at that.
Look at the answer that quixote gave you;
quote:
I appreciate your brevity. Jesus answers your "why" question in vs 26: "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world." The text explicitly, immediately, and in Jesus's own words cites judgment as rationale for addressing a crowd that contained both those who would and would not believe. The Gospel, after all, is double-edged, entering the world in both salvation and judgment. The remainder of the chapter focuses in part on the rationale for the judgment Christ mentions in vs 26.
quote:
Absolutely I do not agree. Please look at the text in question a bit more closely. It says "I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:" Notice the punctuation, which sets this portion of the sentence off as a reference back to vs 21 which clearly states in no uncertain terms that those Jesus is addressing will die in their sins.
Then reads the remainder of vs 24: "For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." This is the judgment of Christ, and indeed the "why" he clearly states in this chapter.
You of course know that I agree that whoever believes in Christ will not die in their sins. I am only disputing that that is what is being taught here. To wit, "Where I go, you cannot come."
That should give plenty enough clarification.
If it did not clarify things for you and you still assume all people have the ability to believe........the rest of the things Jesus said should;
43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
47"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
50"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
There is no need for you to keep asking WHY until you learn how to read that text exactly how it reads without putting your own wrong spin on it.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:50:32 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
Not if you know that God moved
Pharaoh by the means offending the proud man to harden his own heart. Pharaoh chose to get offended.
Not that God wants to harden anyone's heart.
God did something over a dozen times though He really didn't want to? Ok...
How do you explain God moving Pharaoh to chase after God's people... They are already gone... What was the purpose for God moving Pharaoh to go after them? If Pharaoh was going to do it on his own what was the point of God moving him to do so?
quote:
But God couldn't do this by Pharaoh yielding to God, right?
Once again we are back to Pharaoh yielding... Well to be quite frank, Pharaoh did yield and guess what? God moved Pharaoh to NOT let God's people go.. A dilemma you have never dealt with, and I doubt never will...
quote:
Fact is, God's original purpose of coming to Pharaoh was for him to free His people.
Fact is why and how was Pharaoh there in the first place...
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
quote:
God's command to Pharaoh explicitly implies this.
Therefore, we must deduce or conclud that the way God intended to show HIS power to Pharaho & to the world, and that His name might be declared throughout all the earth, is by the means of the implication of the command; to free the slaves.
One can't conclude that since God moved Pharaoh more than once to NOT let God's people go... So one can only conclude that God was showing the world His great power by displaying the level of control over His creation and in the case of Pharaoh the most powerful man on earth, who was moved and twisted by God like a blade of grass...
quote:
Any other way is maligning the character of God, as you do in your interpretation
Any other way depicts God in some form who is a servant to His creation to the degree that who could have faith that He can overcome even the simple of evils...
quote:
Then comes the question that begs, why must you read tyranny in the verse?
You must actually think God is a tyrant, but you may deny the term for it.
I don't... I read God's sovereign decree...
quote:
I could say that I'm showing anyone that knows God ian't a tyrant that you can't see what the verse plainly means.
You could, but the verse it quite clear God raised Pharaoh into power for a purpose...
quote:
It ain't that Pharaoh was dead, but kept alive or brought to life.
Than your take on raised up doesn't apply since Pharaoh wasn't dead till God moved him to go after God's people..
quote:
You can't get passed the fact of the word does not imply putting Pharaoh in office, but to keep alive or bring to life.
God keeps all mankind alive or brings them to life out of His mercy & grace, and God keeps all mankind alive or brings them to life to show HIMSELF strong on their behalf for all mankind should have their heart perfect toward him.
God never does anything for sadistic purposes as you demand.
Really... God going to show His great power to the world by moving and twisting some goat herder who the world didn't know of? I highly doubt that....
quote:
Oh yah, by random chance, luck of the lotto, from a purpose with no particular way of execution.
Only in your mind...
quote:
That's how He elected you, isn't it?
Only in your mind...
quote:
God favored you that His purpose with no particular way of execution according to an arbitrary election might stand.(Rom 9:11)
Certainly wasn't because I made myself righteous enough to deserve His mercy...
quote:
Not more outrages than God being described as a sadistic tyrant!
Those are you words, not mine...
quote:
I realy suggest you do some word studies that you understand verses befre you put your whole self into them.
Do you disagree that if you walk according to the spirit, you can't be perfect?
Mat. 19:21, Phil 3:15, 2Tim 3:17, James 1:4
Good luck.... Especially since one will not be finished till they die are Christ returns... In your study it should have been reveled that perfect is the goal, even though it cannot be obtained... God is perfect, complete, holy, pure, and finished... No man will ever be...
quote:
Yep, as I figured, according to your POV, God gave them vain imaginations for His purpose.
At times He has...
quote:
So, children are not innocent, huh?
What are they guilty of?
What do infants do to bring guilt upon themselves?
You tell me, God saw fit not place them on the Ark and He didn't tell Joshua to treat them any different from the adults in Jericho...
quote:
Furthermore, I already proved the command to be perfect like the Father is posible.
You proved it? Really... If you simply post something it's fact?
quote:
If you think the command to be perfect refers to the unattainable perfection of Deity, that ain't what it means.
Try studying the scriptures instead of collecting ammo for your POV.
God is perfect, complete, holy, pure, and finished... No man will ever be...
quote:
Fact is, God really wanted Pharaoh to free HIS people, But Pharaoh freely, by his own will, with out any mind control from God, chose to become offended and hardened his own heart.
If so why did God move Pharaoh to NOT let them go? And why did God see fit to move Pharaoh to go after them?
quote:
I'm actually debating how God changed Pharaoh's mind.
As I can tell, you think that God supernaturally dominates/causes/controls the mind/heart to not do as God insincerely commands, and condemns Pharaoh for not complying with that which is impossible.
This is ridiculous!!!
Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
quote:
I say that God hardens Pharaoh's heart by having a humble shepherd demand to let the proud Pharaoh's (who thinks he's god) slaves(free labor) go.
Pharaoh chooses to be offended at this & chooses to harden his heart because of it.
God does not want pharaoh to harden his heart, but knows he will.
Pharaoh continues to harden his heart by & through the judgments of his consecutive stubborn refusals.
God is able to use what He gets.
I say that denies the stated purpose for Pharaoh being their in the first place...
Romans 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
quote:
However, those who have been brainwashed with the Reformed theology & of Calvin will see nothing wrong with God being a tyrant, in fact they will defend it as you are.
This will be reported...
quote:
As you have prove, you have all these pre-conceaved ideas of whar Scripture says without actaly studying them.
Strange, since I believed sorta what you believe for longer than I have held Reformed belief...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 8/27/2008 9:58:11 PM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:51:54 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Why do you insult Him by saying He:
---changes His mind
The Bible says it.
What does it mean?
quote:
---makes mistakes
----doubts Himself
---wonders and questions
Your credibility is in doubt when you put words like this in my mouth.
Manna - You have become a clanging symbol, my friend.
Please tell me what Ex 32:14, Amos 7:1-6, Jer 18:7-10 and Jer 26:3 mean to
a determinist like yourself.
No ranting, just answers.
I will not debate a clanging symbol.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 8:58:41 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
KJB: How can you tell everybody their debt has been paid
in full if some of them are going to hell?
Your question reveals your misunderstanding, KJB.
There is a decided view that everyman is potentially saved.
Only those who repent and believe will be saved.
So the answer is the atonement is limited to those who are saved.
Which has nothing to do with who can be saved.
Excellent post, UMCBEE.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:02:41 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
No, it wasn't. No one "added" anything to John 8. And no one "subtracted" anything from John 8. He just won't deal with what's there.
Therefore, his post was dishonest.
No dishonesty at all!
umcbee says this,
quote:
When most evangalists preach , they are not witnessing per say , but rather preaching the message of the gospel .
However , how can a Calvinist evangalist preach to 1000 unbelievers and tell them that God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them ; when he does not even believe that to be the facts to begin with ?
He is not being true to his deepest theological beliefs , to the pillows of his theology .
You respond speaking about Calvinists;
quote:
Clearly, it is NOT the gospel message. Otherwise, that is what Jesuswould have said to the crowd in John 8:24.
quote:
But, instead, He gave the gospel to everyone. Clearly, Jesus was NOT a calvinistic evangelist.
Your response was trying to show that umcbee had it all nailed down and Calvinist preachers were not honest if they did not include things like;
God loves each and every one of them , and desires to save each and every one them , and that Christ died for each and every one them , and tell each and every one them that their sin debt has been paid in full , and that this message of the gospel is for each and every one of them
I dont see any of that stuff in all of John 8..........let alone John 8:24!
You apparently missed Bee's response to you that he was quoting Scripture from other passages, just like you do. That's why it isn't IN John 8. But, the point is, it's in the Bible.
quote:
You preach that all humans have the ability and Jesus did not.
Why is my language not clear to you?
Because you are unable to hear what I say.
Why is it not clear to you that they weren't able to hear Jesus because their father was the devil. Can you actually comprehend 2 people speaking at once to you? Of course you can't. Neither could those who were listening to their father the devil.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:04:56 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
FreeGrace: I tried to imbed the link but I can't get it to work.
the was a comma after the .pdf.
Very informative site, though.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:10:21 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Sovereign,
After a re-reading of that passage (Jer 18:7-10) and looking back at
Ex 32:14, Amos 7:1-6 and Jer 26:3, I don't think God changes his
mind in the same way we do.
Rather God changes his response based on the choice a man makes.
He doesn't change the response.. The response is in accordance with the action..
I'm so sorry, but I disagree.
He is definitely giving several "if/then" conditional statements.
Seems to me God's sovereignty is more than predetermination.
The fact that he allows evil can only happen if God limiting his sovereignty.
Might be time to consult a couple commentaries.
I'll get back to you.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:12:25 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Just as you are the primary cause of your daughter eating what she wants; so, too, is God the primary cause of man's sin.
kelman, no parent is the cause of their children eating. That's plain nonsense. When the child eats, it is because the child is doing it. The child is the cause of his/her eating. The parent certainly makes the food available for the child. But when the food is eaten, it is the child who caused it to be eaten. Now, if you are thinking that the parent is actually placing the food in the mouth of the child, and then grabbing the child's jaw and moving it up and down until the child swallows, ONLY THEN can you say that the parent causes the child's eating.
quote:
Your daughter, who eats according to her desires, is the secondary cause of her choosing what to eat.
Now, you have changed things a bit. Now you bring in "choosing what to eat". That is quite different than causing to eat. The parent provides the choices, or even NO choice. But the cause of eating is solely with the child, unless the parent is abusive and does what I just described above.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:23:39 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
KJ really fails to understand what believing is all about. He keeps confusing one's "will" with what one believes, as if non-reformed think we "will" our beliefs. That is erroneous, yet he keeps arguing against a false, erroneous view that none of us even have.
Why dont you show me how you have the ability to believe the way I do? I dont care if you will it, want it, dont want it, desire it, or dont desire it.......just start believing and posting exactly like I do and hold the same beliefs dear and deep in your heart. Do you suppose you have the ability to do that? I know you dont have the ability to do it.
And yet you would think an unbeliever is able to believe what he does not believe?
You think it is something within the person that makes the choice towards the gospel and I would agree.
But it is NOT the person.
The Bible shows the truth that you keep overlooking and avoiding.
The following shows how people made all sorts of choices in their minds and hearts about Jesus Christ;
13When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, "Who do people say the Son of Man is?"
14They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets."
15"But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?"
16Simon Peter answered, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God."
17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Yeah....people certainly make all sorts of choices dont they?
Too bad they are all wrong UNLESS they have been BLESSED by His Father in heaven.
quote:
KJB seems to indicate that man cannot change his mind. That is absurd. It's done all the time. Just look at politics. There are conservatives who change their minds and become liberal. And vice versa. Is all that coming from God? Of course not. What a ridiculous idea!
I never said men cannot change their minds. Show me where I said that.
I say there is a cause that causes rebels to change their minds to turn to Jesus Christ and the cause is NOT their minds unless we are considering the mind only as a secondary cause. The primary cause is GOD and if GOD does not cause........the secondary cause will remain as lost and mixed up in their choices as they were before.
quote:
Deut 30:19 says "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. Here, God TELLS His people to choose life over death! So much for calvinism and the nonsense that people cannot choose unless God causes them to.
And as usual FreeGrace.........you are wrong again. 
6"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
And;
28For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
29But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:24:26 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
Can you explain WHY Jesus promised to the so-called "non-elect" that they would NOT die in their sins IF they believed in Him?
quixote gave you a great answer.
His response did NOT answer the question.
quote:
21Then He said again to them, "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
What did He just tell those people? Think about it.....read it again a few times.
you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come.
Why can't they come? Because they weren't chosen, or because they didn't believe in Him? It was because they didn't believe in Him. Your theology claims it is because they weren't chosen.
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24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
This is clear promise that they will NOT die in their sins IF they believe in Christ, yet calvinism claims the "non-elect" were chosen to die in their sins, and cannot believe. Yet, Jesus promises them what will happen IF they believe. WHY?
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Where in all of that did Jesus tell anybody they have the ability to believe Him? For you to imply that He said such a thing or even insinuated such a thing is totally dishonest.
You can keep your eyes as tightly shut as you want to KJ, but what Jesus told them is a very clear indication that they WILL NOT die in their sins If they believe. Why would He even say this if calvinism is true rre: "non-elect"?
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For you to speculate that somewhere in that text He was trying to show everybody that they all have the ability to believe in Him is just that.....speculation and bad speculation at that.
There is NO speculation here. Jesus evangelized EVERYONE because the gospel is for EVERYONE, which calvinism denies.
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Look at the answer that quixote gave you;
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I appreciate your brevity. Jesus answers your "why" question in vs 26: "I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world." The text explicitly, immediately, and in Jesus's own words cites judgment as rationale for addressing a crowd that contained both those who would and would not believe. The Gospel, after all, is double-edged, entering the world in both salvation and judgment. The remainder of the chapter focuses in part on the rationale for the judgment Christ mentions in vs 26.
The "rationale for judgment" is based on their lack of faith in Him, and doesn't answer the WHY question.
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Then reads the remainder of vs 24: "For if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins." This is the judgment of Christ, and indeed the "why" he clearly states in this chapter.
No, what He said creates the WHY question in light of calvinism. The judgment is based on their lack of faith. That's why He warned them.
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If it did not clarify things for you and you still assume all people have the ability to believe........the rest of the things Jesus said should;
43"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.
47"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."
50"But I do not seek My glory; there is One who seeks and judges.
There is no need for you to keep asking WHY until you learn how to read that text exactly how it reads without putting your own wrong spin on it.
I've read the text exactly and the question that you cannot answer continues.
You cannot explain why Jesus evangelized the so-called "non-elect". You calvinists claim you evangelize everyone because you do not know who is elect or not. Yet, Jesus, perfectly omniscient, does know, and that didn't stop Him from evangelizing EVERYONE.
The reason? the gospel is for EVERYONE, not just your so-called "elect". That is WHY Jesus evangelized EVERYONE, and calvinsim denies that the gospel is for everyone.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:25:17 PM
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quixote
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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Freegrace,
quote:
Every "if...then" proposition IS a potential.
Given your assertion above, I'd like you to comment on any potential within the following if/then proposition:
If God sins, then he will cease to be God.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:26:07 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
FreeGrace: I tried to imbed the link but I can't get it to work.
the was a comma after the .pdf.
Very informative site, though.
Thanks, rw. Could you get the second link to open? I couldn't.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:38:31 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
KJ really fails to understand what believing is all about. He keeps confusing one's "will" with what one believes, as if non-reformed think we "will" our beliefs. That is erroneous, yet he keeps arguing against a false, erroneous view that none of us even have.
Why dont you show me how you have the ability to believe the way I do? I dont care if you will it, want it, dont want it, desire it, or dont desire it.......just start believing and posting exactly like I do and hold the same beliefs dear and deep in your heart. Do you suppose you have the ability to do that? I know you dont have the ability to do it.
Your response here proves my point that you still fail to understand what believing is all about. It has nothing to do with your "will". It has EVERYTHING to do with choosing [b[]WHAT to believe. But you don't believe that.
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And yet you would think an unbeliever is able to believe what he does not believe?
No, but any unbeliever who comes to the realization that God is trustworthy WILL believe. Now, you'll spin that into God regenerating him so he can believe, yet in spite of no verses that state that.
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You think it is something within the person that makes the choice towards the gospel and I would agree.
Well, there you go.
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But it is NOT the person.
You just said "within the person". What, then? The Holy Spirit? do you have any verses that teach that the Holy Spirit regenerates so that one can believe? No.
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The Bible shows the truth that you keep overlooking and avoiding.
You keep showing me calvinism, which isn't the truth. You even claim that God causes sin. That is so far out, there aren't words to express it.
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17Jesus replied, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven.
Yes, the gospel is revealed by God the Father, just as He reveals His existence to mankind. iow, the gospel came from God the Father, not from man.
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Yeah....people certainly make all sorts of choices dont they?
So much so, I don't need to defend it.
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Too bad they are all wrong UNLESS they have been BLESSED by His Father in heaven.
Is this a twist of v.17? Jesus evangelized everyone because the gospel is for everyone, regardless of what calvinism claims. When people recognize and begin to honor God by seeking Him, He will reveal truth to that one.
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quote:
KJB seems to indicate that man cannot change his mind. That is absurd. It's done all the time. Just look at politics. There are conservatives who change their minds and become liberal. And vice versa. Is all that coming from God? Of course not. What a ridiculous idea!
I never said men cannot change their minds. Show me where I said that.
All of your recent posts.
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I say there is a cause that causes rebels to change their minds to turn to Jesus Christ and the cause is NOT their minds unless we are considering the mind only as a secondary cause. The primary cause is GOD and if GOD does not cause........the secondary cause will remain as lost and mixed up in their choices as they were before.
When man is faced with truth, he is faced with a choice. To believe or not. It's that simple. Calvinism denies that truth.
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quote:
Deut 30:19 says "I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants. Here, God TELLS His people to choose life over death! So much for calvinism and the nonsense that people cannot choose unless God causes them to.
And as usual FreeGrace.........you are wrong again.
How so? What does Deut 30:19 say to you? God has CLEARLY given His people a choice; life or death. You can deny it, but, so what?
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6"Moreover the LORD your God will circumcise your heart and the heart of your descendants, to love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul, so that you may live.
OK, nice tactic, verse 6. Great. What book, what chapter? If you want to discuss, please include the entire reference, so I can look up what you are quoting. Just giving me a single verse # doesn't help at all.
btw, do you think your v.6 "trumps" Deut 30:19? I'm not sure why you gave it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:41:04 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7657
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
Freegrace,
quote:
Every "if...then" proposition IS a potential.
Given your assertion above, I'd like you to comment on any potential within the following if/then proposition:
If God sins, then he will cease to be God.
What would you like me to comment on, specifically?
For starters, the prodesis, "if God sins" is illogical because that would deny that God is God, who cannot sin. So, what is your point here? Thanks.
btw, do you disagree that every "if...then" proposition is a potential?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:55:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
He is definitely giving several "if/then" conditional statements.
Yes... As I said the he response is in accordance with the action
If x does y will happen...
If x doesn't y this will happen...
That's not a change of mind...
If you don't mind your parents they will spank you...
If you mind your parents they will not spank you...
A change of mind would be...
I you don't mind your parents will not spank you...
If you mind your parents will spank you...
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Seems to me God's sovereignty is more than predetermination.
It's part of who God is...
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The fact that he allows evil can only happen if God limiting his sovereignty.
How was God limiting His sovereignty by controlling Satan in regards to his actions with Job?
As well, He used the evil of Satan to make His point... He simply didn't allow for no reason...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2008 9:59:56 PM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 555
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline
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Perhaps you should think of it this way....
God allowing (not causing) evil allows for him to exercise the magnificence of his sovereignty.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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