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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 1:57:31 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
What you should grasp is that what we have been claiming.
God is capable and actually does cause persons to make personal decisions.
Why would God have us be deceived about who is making the decision?
My friend the reality is WE make decisions.
The reality is you have no way of knowing whether you were induced
to make the decision or whether it was your choice.
You may be honoring God by giving him the credit,
but in the process you deny the fact that God created
man as a free agent with an inner moral witness to the truth.
But the truth is found in the revelation of God's redemptive plan
and the overarching theme of the man/God relationship.
Which is: God set the conditions, man continually fails to meet
them.
God justifies the unrighteous by imputation of righteousness.
The sin debt is satisfied by the substitutionary death of the perfect man.
Therefore, all men are potentially elect in Jesus Christ, not
by being perfectly obedient, but by repenting.
And all men are able to repent because God commands it.
A command implies ability. A general command (Acts 17:30)
is not given to anyone who is not able to obey it.
Please explain to me why Adam try to hide from God if
depravity cause him to be blind to his sin?
quote:
The natural person makes the personal decision to
follow his own personal nature which just so happens to
be in bondage to sin and in total cahoots with satan, and
in total rebellion to God.
This is doctrine-speak.
You have no way of knowing if this is actually true.
You can make statements like this because everything a
man does is sin if he has not been justified.
Like I said there are moral pagans who are NOT in "cahoots
with Satan - in fact, the look more like the church than the church!
BTW, I do believe man is born depraved, just not totally.
Please explain to me how man be born with a certain knowledge
of God because the majesty of God has been revealed to him
in nature?
And why the Bible says that because of God's general revelation
man is without excuse; that he is responsible?
quote:
You are under no obligation to read what I write at all.
I dont have any way of forcing you to agree with me and nor
would I even want to force you to. Those kinds of things are all personal decisions you make.
Honestly, alot of what I read from you are dogmatic
statements, but I have learned to expect this from a Calvinist.
You guys are VERY good at your catechism of doctrine.
But, you are certainly correct in assuming if I had no choice
to agree or disagree with you. The problem I see is many from
your side question people's faith if they disagree.
BTW, if I agreed with you, you would have no way of seeing
more excellent way.... 
quote:
It shows that the unrepentant are held captive by Satan to do his will.
It is obvious that somehow Satan has invaded their wills and they are being held hostage to disobedience and in all of this they are not being held against their personal wills. They are quarrelling church members, KJB, not pagans in need of salvation!
This repentance is not unto faith, but unto sanctified living,
two totally different aspects of the same action.
Yes, we NEED God for the ongoing repentance that
sanctification demands, no question.
I really think you should review the context.
What did those in Acts 2:38 ask 'What shall we do now?"
And what did Peter say? "Repent and be baptized".
If God commands all men everywhere to repent, but not
all men do, the reason is man's rejection, not God's selection.
quote:
God gives such revelation and people come to their senses. Yes, men must respond.
Please explain to me how you view the prodigal son.
Does Scripture attribute his repentance to God
"bringing him to his senses"?
Why do you think prosperity is the greatest hindrance
to receiving the gospel? Why did Jesus say what he
did about the rich man and the camel?
Doesn't this give you the right to say therre are fewer
elect among the rich?
I think it shows us that each individual somewhere makes
a personal decision to repent and many factors cause this
"blindness" such as idolatry involving money.
As for Satan invading their wills and blinding them - why is
this even necessary if man is born depraved what what is
keeping them from believing is God's choice?
Seems to me Satan is the great deceiver. He acts
by deception and enticement of the will. He prevents nobody
from being saved outside of his ability to deceive and delude.
He acts as the prince of the power of the air by preying
on man's inborn depravity - THIS is how he blinds people.
I think grace is resisitble. God's love is universal but he
forces his love on no man.
quote:
It is at that time people give no praise at all towards their rotten will and give all praise to God for saving them even though they had a rotten will. But their sin nature and their
"rotten will" remain even after regeneration.
There are moral pagans, my friend, many of whom
have a better life witness than professing Christians, I might add.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 2:58:14 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7655
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
And why the Bible says that because of God's general revelation
man is without excuse; that he is responsible?
rw, the calvinists just cannot explain why man is responsible and without excuse, yet all the faith and repentance are doled out by God. Their system is contrary to the Scriptures.
I've asked why Jesus chided His very own disciples for their lack of faith, and He praised others for their great faith, esp since calvinists insist that God is the One who gives faith. If that were true, Jesus should have chided His own Father because of His very own disciples, and He should have praised His Father for the great faith of others.
The FACT that He chided His own disciples and praised others demonstrates very clearly that faith comes the person, and is not a gift. That is why man is responsible for faith and repentance. They are capable of it.
quote:
If God commands all men everywhere to repent, but not
all men do, the reason is man's rejection, not God's selection.
Excellent phrasing, rw!
quote:
quote:
God gives such revelation and people come to their senses. Yes, men must respond.
Don't you find this statement by KJ a bit "odd"? He admits that God gives revelation, and people "come to their senses". I thought his pov was that man cannot respond to God until God regenerates him. If that is true, what does he mean by "coming to their senses".
Under calvinism, there is no such thing as "coming to one's senses", since it all comes from God.
quote:
As for Satan invading their wills and blinding them - why is
this even necessary if man is born depraved what what is
keeping them from believing is God's choice?
Excellent question, rw! Bee brought up a similar idea from 1 Pet 5:8, which says, "Be sober, be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls about like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour."
Now, IF calvinism were true, this verse is meaningless, because the devil cannot touch the "elect" and he already has the "non-elect", given to him by God "from before the foundation of the world" when He was " individually electing" people out of humanity, leaving behind the "non-elect". So, WHY would the devil even bother "prowling around" seeking someone to devour?
Why indeed? Under calvinsim, God has already given him all the "non-elect" who cannot believe and were prepared for destruction anyway.
But, none of the calvinists responded to Bee's question with any semblance of answer.
Have you noticed that there are a pile of questions on this thread that the calvinists just cannot answer from their theology?
quote:
Seems to me Satan is the great deceiver. He acts
by deception and enticement of the will. He prevents nobody
from being saved outside of his ability to deceive and delude.
According to the calvinists, man cannot resist Satan, just as they think that man cannot resist the Holy Spirit. You make a good point here.
quote:
I think grace is resisitble. God's love is universal but he
forces his love on no man.
We certainly know this from Acts 7:51.
quote:
quote:
It is at that time people give no praise at all towards their rotten will and give all praise to God for saving them even though they had a rotten will.
But their sin nature and their
"rotten will" remain even after regeneration.
There are moral pagans, my friend, many of whom
have a better life witness than professing Christians, I might add.
Absolutely true!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 9:17:53 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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KJB:
A reasoned study I did of "evil" revealed the following perspective:
The intent for moral injury is the motivating factor for Satan.
The intent to accomplish a purpose is the motivation for God.
Calamatous events might or might not be evil depending
on why it has occurred and who purposed it to occur.
It certainly might appear to be evil in the eyes of men and
for this reason we can never be sure an "evil" event is
for destruction or purpose.
In addition to determining certain events such as the passing over
and killing of firstborn babies, causing cannibalism, threatening and
destroying whole cities and nations, and even destroying
the whole world (!) save eight persons, God also uses
the evil Satan is able to perpetrate for his own purpose to
without being the primary cause.
This being said, God is not the determiner of my sin, as
my sin is a product of my nature, not a predetermined
decree. It is offensive to God. It is the reason I am
in need of redemption.
No, my sin in not predetermined by God by God's Eternal Decree.
My sinful nature, my lack of being spirit-filled and my possibly being
seduced by the great deceiver, Satan is the cause of my sin.
This fact alone proves God does not determine every single
act, thought and word of every single person in the world.
It is also proven by the fact that God created a parallel
universe of evil of which he knows everything about, but
he also only limits or prevents, but is never the mastermind of.
So when you speak of God as a tyrant or merciless, sadistic
perpetrator of human suffering, and compare the purposeful
suffering God imposes on humans to the destructive purposes
of Satan, it reflects a poor understanding of God's character IMHO.
Yes, little babies and young mothers died in the flood.
Do act as if you are in some strange way happy God did it in order
to prove his sovereignty. But you miss the point.
So you think God took pleasure in it? No, Gen 6 says
he was sorry he ever created man.
quote:
I dont really know what to think about this constant; "tyrant sadistic monster"
stuff but it is getting to be quite annoying.
Diolectic may be unbalanced, but I tell you the word
lovingkindness occurs 177 times in the Bible.
Dio - do you see no difference in the calamity God has determined
to do vs. the calamity Satan is able to induce men to do?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/28/2008 10:44:13 PM
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quixote
Posts: 59
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline
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Freegrace,
"Why don't you stay with reality here when considering the prodesis? IF you do, THEN you will have a good example. (see what I mean?) "
I'm glad you see in me the potential for a good example :)
I don't consider Christ's sinless life to be outside the boundary of the real, but no problem. Let's return to Jesus addressing the crowd in John 8. If he were to say "If you do not sin from this point forward, then your penalty on the day of judgment will not increase from where it stands this moment." If/then does not always carry potentiality.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 3:51:55 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JohnO
quote:
RT does not deny that one way in which God controls man is through man's free choices. Just as you are the primary cause of your daughter eating what she wants; so, too, is God the primary cause of man's sin.
So God says "Thou shalt not..." then forces even us believers to commit those sins? (1John1:8-10) That is a strawman. I don't say God "forces" us so why argue against what has not been proposed?
quote:
quote:
Your daughter, who eats according to her desires, is the secondary cause of her choosing what to eat. This would be impossible for her to do had you not first granted the permission; and, in fact, provided the "choices" she must choose from. No. She desires to eat what she desire to eat. Another one who simply answers in a knee-jerk fashion. Did I not just say your daughter eats according to her desires?(bolded above) Yes, I did, so why do you reflexively say "NO"?
quote:
I cannot force her to desire to eat brocolli. She desires mac' n' cheese and a hot dog, no matter what I allow her to eat. Again, I have not said that you can force her nor do I say that God forces.
quote:
quote:
This seems to be your position also since you said "I am in control of what my daughter has for supper." You did not "cause" your daughter to eat what she desired by spooning the food she chose into her mouth. But, the fact, remains you are the primary cause of your daughter eating the food she "freely" chose.
I allow her to eat (sometimes) what she desires, but I in no way control those desires. Again, that is NOT the argument being made, at least by me.
It's useless to respond further since it's obvious you do not wish to engage the argument as proposed.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 4:00:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3867
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Oquote:
RIGINAL: kelman
Man chooses according to his desires and inclination, that's what God teaches us as He relates the events of the Crucifixion, for example.
Since God created mankind to seek Him, THAT is part of mans "desires and inclination". Therefore, man is able to seek God and believe the evidence that God makes clear to man. Sure man can seek God, never said otherwise.
quote:
quote:
God placing you where He wanted you IS a "thing of God". You have no scriptural support that it is within the nature of the natural man to seek God as He commands - with his whole heart.
Where is your support that man is UNABLE to seek God with his whole heart? God must give man the "new heart"....
Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:[20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
....then man is able to seek with his whole "new" heart:
Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
...if God doesn't give the new heart, man remains with:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
quote:
quote:
I meant what I asked "are you able to choose differently from what God knows?" God knows you will have that filet mignon for dinner. Is it possible that you will instead have fish? How do you choose to answer?...meat or fish?
The answer is quite obvious. Since God is omnisicent, He correctly knows what I'll have for dinner, even though I may not make up my own mind as to what I choose. What good is your "obvious answer" when it obviously is not responsive to the question? I asked you "are you able to choose differently from what God knows?" Are you?
quote:
quote:
What we think is not the point. But, what Scripture says IS the point. And, Scripture is clear God is the primary cause of all things because He is the sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient Creator of all.
If you want to think that God causes sin, that is your problem completely. Since that is what Scripture teaches, I have no problem believing it.
quote:
quote:
And, therefore, must make "contingency" plans to cover your "every possible alternative" of man's libertarian free will – if your “every possible alternative” was true which, of course, it is not.
Your conclusion re: "contingency plans" is pure nonsense. All I said is that God knows perfectly everything that could ever occur. What's the point of knowing "every possible alternative" unless contingency plans are made to cover them? IOW, Adam might sin, then again, he might not. Did God make plans for those alternatives?
quote:
quote:
Obviously, your "every possible alternative" is quite uncertain. You may choose "this", yet again, you may choose “that” - the definition of uncertainty. If something is uncertain (this or that) then it cannot be known. Everything God foreknows is certain, everything that is certain has been foreordained. Therefore, it is a contradiction in terms to say "possible" and "certain". You really seem confused. Your use of "uncertain" is your word, not mine. LOL....the only one confused is you since you can't figure out that if something is only "possible" then it is "uncertain".
quote:
quote:
Precisely why I asked you the original question. In any event, ultimately, the fact is that if God knows what you will choose, you are not free to choose otherwise....because then God would be wrong.
No, you just fail to realize that knowing what will happen has no relationship causually with causing what will happen. Nope, who's talking about "causing"? You still haven't answered the question. Why is it so hard? But, since I've decided to avoid this type of silliness, I won't ask you again. Therefore, you don't have to continue to not answer.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 4:44:14 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Original:Freegrace
In light of what Acts 17:26 says, don't you think your question is rather silly? Considering your statement:
quote:
By placing those He knew who carry out the misery at the right time and place in history so they could do so. Check out Acts 17:26 for details. You are basically admitting that God places people to where He wants them to be to fit events. So the chess analogy would be close to your response. Because He put the pieces together as they would interact the way He wants them too.
What you are admitting here is that God does control all events. How different is that from the RT look at providence? Very little because you will deny that God has planned them to happen. When you said "by placing" you admit to an omnipotent God.
You must realize that denying God ever will things to happen and yet make the statement that God places people to act upon an event is a bit incongruent. You say that God does not will evil to happen (evil that is caused by sin) but you will contradict yourself by saying that God sovereignly place people to make things happen.
quote:
Are you trying to equate sin with pain? Why? What's your point here? Well, sin caused pain on earth. Go to Genesis. If sin has not entered the world, calamities and disasters would have not been possible. Sin brought us sickness and death. Pain at birth and toil in labor. Aside from the universal effect of sin in man, on a micro level sin brings pain. Murder brings death, pain and sorrow. What I was saying sin brings pain. So if God brings you pain, it can be in so many form. But you can rest assure that sin will have its imprints in it. That is why I gave you the murderer analogy in a previous post.
quote:
But not the way calvinism views it. Why would you not view God desiring to harden the heart of Pharaoh? You yourself admit that He lengthen his life for this purpose. Although we differ in the nuances of God's will regarding Pharaoh, you are showing here that God desired to harden the heart of Pharaoh, therefore what He wished came to pass as He had purposed.
That at least you are admitting to here. However, scriptures go further. When Paul commented on the same issue, he shows us that God chose Pharaoh to be hardened. Because he said that it does not depend on man's desire (will) but on God's mercy as he contrasts hardening with giving mercy. This shows that God acts upon hardening one person, while NOT hardening another person (God has mercy on him).
Romans 9:16 It DOES NOT, therefore, DEPEND on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
quote:
I suppose it's quite safe to say that IF God prevented Satan from being in the garden, then Adam wouldn't have sinned. Of course God allows us opportunities to sin. Does that make God the cause of sin? No. well, does God know the future? Yes. And Arminians would agree because they would argue that predestination was predicated by God knowing that we will believe. Will it change? No. Arminians would agree that it will not because for them foreknowledge means God knowing the future.
Opportunity then is left without value. God knowing that a creature is destined for destruction, would be cruelty to even contemplate of creating his soul. It will be a shame, a waste. If Arminians accuse Calvinists of worshipping a tyrant, then it would be equally applicable to Arminians to construe their God as being a heartless sadist because the only way to look at it is He has the power to remove a painful future for many by not allowing them to even be concieved.
< Message edited by balbas -- 8/29/2008 7:03:26 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 5:35:47 AM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1661
Joined: 1/23/2006
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wow i cant believe it. i was reading my posts in the original thread that is archived. and wow i cant bleive i said such things as i did. i even said my opinion of God which was just about blasphemous when i realize He is not who i thought He was in His entirety as to mercy and salvation and election, etc. You all were patient and kind with me, and even when i acted like a troll. but i was trying to learn and i was fighting it all the way until it made sense.. so thank you all for answering my questions and objections but finally God showed me what was up with all that. so im sorry for being rude, and thank you for having patience and showing me the Bible scriptures.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 7:38:53 AM
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FolkSingerBlues
Posts: 555
Joined: 1/11/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
FolkSingerBlues:
God allowing (not causing) evil allows for him to exercise the magnificence of his sovereignty. Why would God even allow sin, if He could create a universe without it?
Diolectics, that question would require speculation to answer in detail.
However I do see evidence in the Bible that his sovereignty is displayed in awesome ways by trumping evil for his glory.
_____________________________
My New Blog site
Proof texting is a very dangerous thing...If we were given the Scriptures it was to humble us into realizing God is right and the rest of us are just guessing.
-Rich Mullins
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 7:44:01 AM
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balbas
Posts: 133
Joined: 8/3/2008
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quote:
Original:diolectic
Tell me how you get by with your description of God?
You do know it is of a tyrant don't you? A tyrant is nothing. I am describing GOD.
quote:
Reformed theology/doctrine & Calvin states...
God commands are impossible to obey.
This is tyranny.
You must, therefore, be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect. Matt. 5:48
quote:
God controls/dominates/causes men to sin, then HE condemns them for sinning.
This is tyranny.
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD; he directs it like a watercourse wherever he pleases. Proverbs 21:1
The next day an evil spirit from God came forcefully upon Saul. He was prophesying in his house, while David was playing the harp, as he usually did. Saul had a spear in his hand and he hurled it, saying to himself, "I'll pin David to the wall." But David eluded him twice. 1 Samuel 18:10-11
So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you. 1 Kings 22:23
quote:
God takes pleasure in condemning His creation, "for he has created all things, and for your pleasure they are and were created"(Rev 4:11)
If God was knowing HE will not elect some, He created the non-elect for the sole purpise of condemning them,
This is sadistic
The LORD has made all for Himself, Yes, even the wicked for the day of doom. Proverbs 16:4
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth. Romans 9:17
quote:
Not saying that God causes all things, but God causes all things all things to work together for the good of those who love God...
...him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will...Eph 1:11
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. Isaiah 45:7
quote:
The "evil" that God creates in not moral evil.
God creates the darkness by His contrast to the light.
Why do you insist on maligning the character of God with your implications?
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips. Job 2:10
quote:
Evil, which is sin, the Lord has not done.
No one has the right to accuse God of sin even if He does evil to man. What is the worst thing God can do to His creature that will be considered by anybody as a crime? Kill His creature. That can be a sin agains God if man does it. A murderer carrying out the Lord's will does not accuse God of sin but glorifies Him as God. The murderer sins to bring a God appointed end to another. God is justified because He owns all things - even man.
quote:
Evil, which is punishment for sin, the Lord does. Okay.
quote:
Evil that men do out of rejecting God, God does not do
God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. Romans 9:18
quote:
Evil from the judgment from sin as the plagues of Egypt, the Lord does. Okay.
quote:
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth blessings and evil of the judgments. Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
quote:
This verse is a parallel.
God does, so the wicked do.
The LORD has done all things for himself: yea, even the wicked [has done things] for the day of evil.
Try studying Scripture instead of finding ammo for your POV. I do not use the scriptures as an ammo. The scriptures thought me first.
If you are so knowledgeable about this verse why won't you give a much clearer explanation?
The verse does not say "even the wicked has sone things". It says: The LORD has made ALL FOR HIMSELF. Yes, EVEN THE WICKED for the day of doom. Proverbs 16:4
quote:
I'm claiming that God hardens hearts just like anyone else does. So you are claiming that as I manipulate someone to get mad at me, God also manipulates someone to be mad at Him?
quote:
I'm talking about that some claim that Judas had to betray Jesus, he had no choice, just because of prophecy.
Some claim that prophecy causes things to happen, when in realty, it forsees the thing happening. Prophecies are declarations of things to come. Just like "Let there be light". The Lord's words are not empty guesses or just forsights of the future. They are proclamations from God.
quote:
This time, actually take some time to comprehend.
Dome people argue against my POV saying thus...
...No one (God included) can know my choice of vanilla or chocolate until I make the choice. If a choice is determined ahead of time, then it is not free.
(I say that) This is a false assumption,
(This next part is my argument to the false assumption)
the knowledge of another's choice does not take the options away from the one choosing, nor does it stop the freedom to choose. God is not the One who determines a man's choices just because He knows them. So you created your own strawman. Nice work.
quote:
Don't be so amazed.
Do you think God wanted sin to exist?
Do you think God wants His creation to fall, to be condemned, hate Him...ect...
This is what I mean as sadistic.
According to the Ref & Calvin, God could have made a universe with no sin, but God chose to make one with sin over the one that didn't.
This means that God wanted sin.
This is ridiculous!!!
Fact is that since God hates sin and would never choose sin over the absence of it, the logical conclusion is that God could not create a universe without sin.
Unless God was lawless, because without law, there is no sin.
But we kniw that God can not be lawless. There are things beyond the control of God? Actually what you are sayings here is. All things are beyond the control of God.
quote:
I will spell it out for you then:
God's intention is to create mankind to enjoy life in a loving relationship with Him.
He also created all mankind to worship Him. Actually He created all things for HIMSELF. Worship is just a part of that "for Himself" motive.
quote:
God knows that most will refuse to be in a relationship with Him, however, that does not change His intention for creating them.
Do you see it now? It does in your first premise. If God created man to enjoy life in a loving relationship with Him, the forsight of destruction of the things He intended to enjoy life in loving relationship with Him is defeated because now, not all are going to enjoy life in loving relationship with Him. He just wasted a great amount of fragile souls to torment.
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God has free will, we are created in His likeness & image.
Furthermore, love demands free will.
You must prove from Scripture where God does not give free will.
Also, prove that love is possible without free will. We are created in the image of Adam - bound in sin. If that will remained intact, it would have been the will to be holy.
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Would it be ungodly to want the whole world to be saved?
It would if God really didn't. Actually, if He knew the future, and He really intended the have no one to be lost, He would have not created the tree.
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According to your POV, God does not want to save those He created.
This makes God to be apathetic toward the non-elect & our prayer for the non-elect.
God is ungracious toward the non-elect & our prayer for the non-elect.
God is mean spirited toward the non-elec.
God is unmerciful toward the non-elect & our prayer for the non-elect. Romans 9:21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
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No, they are mysteries to science.
Common sense has it that God can do miracles.
Nonsense has it that God can not make a square circle.
The explanation to miracles are that God can create something out of nothing.
The key word is not "common", but "sense".
They make sense, they are in the realm of reality as a square circle isn't. The natural man cannot comprehend the spritual things.
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It would mean either, I didn't prey according to His will or that I regarded iniquity in my heart.
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
However, I didn't regard iniquity in my heart. And it was surly according to His will.
1: He put us together, let no one separate us. Mat 19:6;
2: It is not good for man to be alone(especially if he is married)
3: Marriage is a relationship, two people 1/2 way around the world is no much of a relationship...ect...
I had many reasons that God would answer my prayers in a positive manner.
Furthermore, what do you think effectual prayers are, according to James 5:16? You already said that if it did not go your way, your prayer was not according to His will. I know what that means, but didn't Paul ask that the thorn on his flesh be removed but to no avail...was he a righteous man? When Jesus asked for the cup to be removed...wasn't he the righteous man?
To be the righteous man does not mean getting all that you ask for as if being righteous is a badge to get all things. If it was so, the saints would have had all the protection in the world in the face of persecutions. It only means praying according to the will of God. Knowing what God wants and praying for it. Aligning desires with God's will. Getting it or not he knows that the Lord's counsel is wiser than his prayer. Even the Lord Jesus would pray "Thy Will Be Done". Confidence with no presumptions.
Even the same author caution us from being so.
James 4:13 Now listen, you who say, "Today or tomorrow we will go to this or that city, spend a year there, carry on business and make money." 14Why, you do not even know what will happen tomorrow. What is your life? You are a mist that appears for a little while and then vanishes. 15Instead, you ought to say, "If it is the Lord's will, we will live and do this or that." 16As it is, you boast and brag. All such boasting is evil. 17Anyone, then, who knows the good he ought to do and doesn't do it, sins.
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Petitions of what? Things that He'll do anyway? What's the point. Boy, you would stop at nothing to make a point. Even attacking a man's personal prayer life is not anymore a sacred thing.
Sorry to disappoint you. I know that God holds the future, not I therefore, I do pray with confidence that the Lord will respond with much wisdom and that the answer will be of love and goodness to me. I petition God for things that He will answer according to His will because I trust His judgement.
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Furthermore, praying this:
"THY WILL BE DONE."
That is the greatest DUH!!!
Is it as if His will might not be done? I thought you said that sin is not His will. What if instead of your request for peace evil occured?
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PRAYER MOVES GOD!!! To where God wisely will go because first and foremost the spirit prays for us according to the will of God.
Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 7:57:00 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7655
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: quixote
Freegrace,
Let's return to Jesus addressing the crowd in John 8. If he were to say "If you do not sin from this point forward, then your penalty on the day of judgment will not increase from where it stands this moment." If/then does not always carry potentiality.
But He didn't say that. And even if He did, so what? They had already sinned and were under condemnation.
Please deal with the reality of what He DID say. He evangelized those of whom He said their father was the devil and they couldn't hear Him. I believe the calvinist would agree those would be the "non-elect". Yet, Jesus evangelized them.
kelman actually admitted that the gospel is for everyone, which surprised me, because to admit that, you must acknowledge that Christ died for everyone, which I firmly believe He did.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 8:13:28 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7655
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Oquote:
RIGINAL: kelman
Man chooses according to his desires and inclination, that's what God teaches us as He relates the events of the Crucifixion, for example.
Since God created mankind to seek Him, THAT is part of mans "desires and inclination". Therefore, man is able to seek God and believe the evidence that God makes clear to man. Sure man can seek God, never said otherwise.
Nonsense. All of you calvinists continue to claim that man is unable to seek God.
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God placing you where He wanted you IS a "thing of God". You have no scriptural support that it is within the nature of the natural man to seek God as He commands - with his whole heart.
Where is your support that man is UNABLE to seek God with his whole heart? God must give man the "new heart"....
Ezekiel 11:19-20 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:[20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.
....then man is able to seek with his whole "new" heart:
Again, where is your support that man is UNABLE to seek God with his whole heart? Ezek 11:19 speaks of regeneration but says nothing about man's inability to seek God. It should be clear to you that the unregenerate cannot "walk in God's statutes, or keep His ordinances".
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Deut 4:29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
where is your support that man is UNABLE to seek God with his whole heart? Deut 4:29 says that those who seek God WITH their whole heart and soul WILL find Him. Where does it speak of "inability"? It doesn't. None of the verses you give me support what you claim.
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...if God doesn't give the new heart, man remains with:
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
This isn't under debate. Even with the new heart, man is a sinner, and continues to be capable of all categories of sin. Your point is not taken.
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I meant what I asked "are you able to choose differently from what God knows?" God knows you will have that filet mignon for dinner. Is it possible that you will instead have fish? How do you choose to answer?...meat or fish?
The answer is quite obvious. Since God is omnisicent, He correctly knows what I'll have for dinner, even though I may not make up my own mind as to what I choose. What good is your "obvious answer" when it obviously is not responsive to the question? I asked you "are you able to choose differently from what God knows?" Are you?
No offense, but you are merely asking a really stupid question. Since God IS omniscient, He KNOWS the choice I make. Seems you really think that His knowing what choice I am going to make causes me to make it, but that is irrational. I gave an example of how one can know what is going to happen yet is not in any way the cause of it happening.
Why didn't you comment about that example?
Get this, kelman. Even if you could have prevented something from happening, but didn't doesn't mean you caused it. Calvinism cannot separate knowing from causing, even though they aren't related at all.
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What we think is not the point. But, what Scripture says IS the point. And, Scripture is clear God is the primary cause of all things because He is the sovereign, omnipotent, omniscient Creator of all.
If you want to think that God causes sin, that is your problem completely.
Since that is what Scripture teaches, I have no problem believing it.
Since Scripture does NOT teach that God causes sin, your views are totally unbiblical.
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And, therefore, must make "contingency" plans to cover your "every possible alternative" of man's libertarian free will – if your “every possible alternative” was true which, of course, it is not.
Your conclusion re: "contingency plans" is pure nonsense. All I said is that God knows perfectly everything that could ever occur. What's the point of knowing "every possible alternative" unless contingency plans are made to cover them?
There IS no point, kelman. Just the facts. God knows every possible option out to infinity. But, apparently you disagree that God is that "knowledgeable". Why is that? calvinism limits the atonement. So, why not limit His omnisicience as well.
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IOW, Adam might sin, then again, he might not. Did God make plans for those alternatives?
Again, no offense, but your questions are stupid. since God knows exactly what WILL happen, why would you even bother to suggest He "might" need to "make plans" for "alternatives". You simply fail to grasp what omniscience is about.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 8:17:39 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7655
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
This is new. No, in fact, it is not new as I just explained to you. But, what is also not new is your disingenousness as demonstrated again in your latest post. I intend to avoid these types of posts like the plague.
You are most free to ignore what you freely choose to ignore. But, it is sad that you are unwilling to explain why you think the gospel is for everyone, when the main point of calvinism is that the "non-elect" were actively or passively chosen for destruction. That certainly is NOT good news for them, now, is it.
So, you will avoid my questions. No problem. Your failure to engage these questions demonstrates your lack of having an answer.
btw, admitting that the gospel is for everyone is an acknowledgement that Christ died for everyone, as Paul made very clear in 1 Cor 15:3.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 8:23:42 AM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1595
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
This being said, God is not the determiner of my sin, as
my sin is a product of my nature, not a predetermined
decree. It is offensive to God. It is the reason I am
in need of redemption.
If you can show me ONE solitary human being that born without a sin nature I will agree with you.
Once we find the guy we might as well crucify him.
It has been determined by God that whatever creature that proceeds from Adam (I am speaking about procreation and not creation) is a fallen creature.
If you or any person in all of creation can change this fact and reality so it is not determined anymore, you will have literally taken all of Scripture and turned into meaningless dribble.
Why dont you show us all the un-fallen creature?
It is a determined decree of God that creatures are fallen and there is not a thing they can do to change that decree.
It is His world and that is how things are.
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No, my sin in not predetermined by God by God's Eternal Decree.
My sinful nature, my lack of being spirit-filled and my possibly being
seduced by the great deceiver, Satan is the cause of my sin.
You might want to try that someday.
When God questions you on your sin and all is laid in the open I would like to see you try and blame Satan for your sin. Stand in front of the GOD of the universe and blame Satan for your sin.
By the same token I would like to see you you make any attempt to blame God for your sin or sin nature.
I do not think it would be a funny sight at all.
Stand in front of God and blame Him for your sin nature EVEN if He did give it to you.
I can picture people trying to defend themselves calling Him a tyrant.
What a JOKE!
If those people could not resist His will before they certainly will not resist it when He casts them into everlasting hell. 
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It is also proven by the fact that God created a parallel
universe of evil of which he knows everything about, but
he also only limits or prevents, but is never the mastermind of.
Why dont you read that and figure it out? It is doubletalk.
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So when you speak of God as a tyrant or merciless, sadistic
perpetrator of human suffering, and compare the purposeful
suffering God imposes on humans to the destructive purposes
of Satan, it reflects a poor understanding of God's character IMHO.
IMHO I dont remember insinuating that God is a tyrant or merciless sadistic perpetrator of human suffering.
I would speak of you and myself that way, but never of God.
quote:
Yes, little babies and young mothers died in the flood.
Do act as if you are in some strange way happy God did it in order
to prove his sovereignty. But you miss the point.
You miss the point.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 8:33:38 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7655
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: balbas
quote:
Original:Freegrace
In light of what Acts 17:26 says, don't you think your question is rather silly? Considering your statement:
quote:
By placing those He knew who carry out the misery at the right time and place in history so they could do so. Check out Acts 17:26 for details. You are basically admitting that God places people to where He wants them to be to fit events. So the chess analogy would be close to your response. Because He put the pieces together as they would interact the way He wants them too.
I believe that Acts 17:26 demands this conclusion.
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What you are admitting here is that God does control all events. How different is that from the RT look at providence?
I'm not "admitting". More like "proclaiming". Of course He is in charge of all events. iow, nothing happens without His consent. But, does that mean He is micro-managing, as in how a puppeteer manipulates his puppets? No. While the wooden headed puppet has no will, man has a free will, and chooses freely. Our differences are that while God is in control, I believe that He uses man's free will to accomplish His purposes, while calvinism seems to believe that God causes man's very actions, much like a puppet.
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Very little because you will deny that God has planned them to happen. When you said "by placing" you admit to an omnipotent God.
Your statment is very puzzling. Why would you think that I wouldn't "admit to an omnipotent God"? Of course I do.
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You must realize that denying God ever will things to happen and yet make the statement that God places people to act upon an event is a bit incongruent. You say that God does not will evil to happen (evil that is caused by sin) but you will contradict yourself by saying that God sovereignly place people to make things happen.
Our differences are in how we understand "willing", "allowing" and "causing".
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Are you trying to equate sin with pain? Why? What's your point here? Well, sin caused pain on earth. Go to Genesis. If sin has not entered the world, calamities and disasters would have not been possible. Sin brought us sickness and death. Pain at birth and toil in labor. Aside from the universal effect of sin in man, on a micro level sin brings pain. Murder brings death, pain and sorrow. What I was saying sin brings pain. So if God brings you pain, it can be in so many form. But you can rest assure that sin will have its imprints in it. That is why I gave you the murderer analogy in a previous post.
Just because sin causes pain, doesn't equate them. Actually, some sins cause pleasure. The Bible even says so!
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But not the way calvinism views it. Why would you not view God desiring to harden the heart of Pharaoh? You yourself admit that He lengthen his life for this purpose. Although we differ in the nuances of God's will regarding Pharaoh, you are showing here that God desired to harden the heart of Pharaoh, therefore what He wished came to pass as He had purposed.
God desired to "show him His power and to proclaim His name through all the earth", from Ex 9:16. That was God's purpose. He knew Pharaoh would reject Him, and through that freely chosen rejection, God's power would be manifest, andf His name would be proclaimed through all the earth.
The impression I get from calvinism is that God chose to harden Pharaoh's heart just because God chose to "not" elect him. But, since Christ died for everyone, including Pharaoh, that notion is quite incorrect.
quote:
That at least you are admitting to here. However, scriptures go further. When Paul commented on the same issue, he shows us that God chose Pharaoh to be hardened. Because he said that it does not depend on man's desire (will) but on God's mercy as he contrasts hardening with giving mercy. This shows that God acts upon hardening one person, while NOT hardening another person (God has mercy on him).
It's all about purpose. calvinism fails to recocgnize that the gospel is for everyone, as kelman has finally admitted. such an admission also must acknowledge that Christ died for everyone, because "gospel" means good news, and Paul explained the gospel in 1 Cor 15:3 this way: Christ died for us.
If Christ hadn't died for everyone, to those He didn't, you CANNOT say the gospel is good news. Because it wouldn't be if Christ didn't die for them.
That is WHY Jesus could evangelize the entire crowd in John 8:24. He was to die for them all. There is NO OTHER REASON He said what He did.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 11:16:33 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
For what it's worth, I've never read any Piper. In fact, I didn't even know who he was until I started reading this thread.
He is one of the modern authors that tackles some theol issues of Calvinism. As an inspirational preacher he is excellent
Have you read Pink , Edwards or John Owens, esp The Death of Death in the Death of Christ? If you are a reformed you‘d like them, i think. To me - their theology is very debatable, but those are decent reformed authors that have some substance to them. I love Spurgeon very much but his views are just as close to deep theology is a Honda Civic commercial ad to the actual instructional manuals /specifications.
Appreciate your level headed approach, sister. Boys here like to draw blood and gut each other out on occasion..but i dont dare to complain:) As my rabbi and dear personal friend would say "thats' the way men are glued together, you dont like it? then you have the reason for concern you might be gay"
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 11:21:28 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2338
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
God turned me to Jesus Christ and if He is for me can I be against? I actually see myself as an object deserving of wrath. Now that I have turned I am not free to do anything else because I dont even have the will to desire anything esle. So I certainly dont think too highly of myself.
I always appreciate your modesty and thinking low of yourself Its highly commendable, KJ. Most people from the rich western countries think of modesty almost as a personal defect of sort..
But as a theological point, that is preaching to the choir – nobody here ever said he ever deserved salvation or saving faith. We all deserve Gods wrath. Deserving would actually be a disqualifier for salvation by mercy- which by definition is getting opposite of what we deserve.
edit spelling
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 8/29/2008 11:33:02 AM >
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 8/29/2008 11:38:58 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2291
Status: offline
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Free -
Am I wrong in thinking that implicit in a command is ability?
The simply have no answer as to why God would command
"all men everywhere" knowing he has with forethought created
a certain number of them with no ability to obey.
As for ability, don't you think fact that Adam was ashamed
of his sin proves the inner moral witness Romans 1 talks
about is in every man?
How can a man reject what he was never created to believe?
As for election, isn't there a dual purpose in election as
revealed in the Old and New Testament?
Wasn't Noah's and Israel's election was for purpose rather
than salvation? To preserve a remnant out which the Messiah
would come and to whom he would appear first?
And now that the light has "appeared to all men" and salvation
is for the Jews and the Gentiles, election takes on a different
meaning. God commands all men everywhere to repent and
God desires all men to be saved. How? There is one elect man,
Jesus Christ and all men are potentially elect not because
of God's choosing, but through believing in him.
Another reason I reject selective redemption is the
idea that God would allow sinful man to think of himself
as somehow specially chosen.
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