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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 4:17:27 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
If pride is self-esteem then pride is sinful and therefore, so is self-esteem. Esteeming oneself, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. I can agree with that.
I can see how low self esteem could be self deprecation, but it still has a sinful agenda attached. "Self" is still the focus, regardless of the emotion or attitude. Low self-esteem is still about focusing on ourselves - to either be better, bigger, bolder, whatever.
Rather than esteeming Jesus first in all things and learning how to have confidence in your position in Christ (which imo would be biblical esteem), we hang on to how we feel about ourselves and how others feel about us as more important than God.
Just because I see myself with a depraved heart does not mean that I am self-depracating...I am merely stating that in terms of God's mercy and grace - I have never and will never deserve it.
That should bring us to our knees in thanksgiving instead of guilt over not being good enough. Of course, we're not good enough - after all, Jesus died because there was no chance of us ever being good enough.
You summed up my points nicely, perhaps in a better way than I did/could.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 4:19:18 PM
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doinkdom
Posts: 4259
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
You summed up my points nicely, perhaps in a better way than I did/could.
well, that's a first... 
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 4:43:06 PM
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doinkdom
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I meant that it's a first that I could sum anything up with fewer words
I tend to ramble here and there
but thank you...and your testiness
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 5:40:45 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
LL, your focus on you, doesn't change them. Their lack of, it is their own road. No matter how many times you may discuss it. It still will fall on them.
I am not trying to change them, DD. But what the Lord has shown me is how I am to be---to live openly repentant and eternally grateful for all that Jesus has done for me. That is His life working through me. It was John the Baptist's message and it is my message and I desire to be the Lord Jesus' living sacrifice.
What may be your truth doesn't mean it is the same truth for everybody.
I don't think this is 'my' truth at all. I think it is Jesus' main message and one that has been lost by the evangelical church. That is not to say that the Lord doesn't deal in different ways with different people. He certainly does. But I see this as basic Christianity---Christianity 101 if you will.
I totally hear what you are saying, but I can't help but think. the meaning you have attached to it goes much deeper.
A person who has low self esteem, has tragedy in their past. It's still affecting them because they have given it to Jesus yet. They may think they have, but if it keeps visiting, it's because they keep taking it back.
There is not pride in this, for some it has become a way of life. To live differently feels very strange and uncomfortable.
I guess I'm hearing from you that we are to not esteem ourselves at all.
This concerns me because of what Jesus did for me. I can't claim that it was by my effort, yet if I refuse to acknowledge the healing He did, I am denying Him the glory.
DD, if you are thinking I have not 'dealt with' things from my past, I wouldn't deny it. The Lord still has much conforming work to do in me. But really I had a blessed upbringing and life---growing up on a farm with loving parents in a family and community of believers. There are no skeletons in the closet. And I've been happily married for 33 years and have a wonderful son. I don't think I'm self deprecating---but view myself realistically. However my bent is toward melancholy which is my dominant temperament.
I'm walking, talking proof of His loving kindness. Even though I still sin, the state that He brought me from, overrides what I was.
Does that make more sense?
Yup. It makes sense. I wish we could know each other in person. I think cyberspace so limits our knowing one another. But I'm enjoying getting to know you here and very much enjoy our dialogue. Bless you, DD.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 5:47:03 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1838
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quote:
Pride would be self-esteem
low self esteem =self deprecation
I see that as being very different.
Now I'm really confused, DD. You say this to me and then you agree with Doinkdom and she says what I said only she used waaaaaaaaaaaay more words.
(I'm teasing you Doinkdom after what you said to DD.)
Anyway, can you 'splain this to me?  LL
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/15/2008 5:53:05 PM
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deliveredarling
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We cross posted. Did my last post explain?
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 7:37:02 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
ORIGINAL: doinkdom
quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
Pride would be self-esteem
low self esteem =self deprecation
I see that as being very different.
If pride is self-esteem then pride is sinful and therefore, so is self-esteem. Esteeming oneself, thinking more highly of ourselves than we ought. I can agree with that.
I can see how low self esteem could be self deprecation, but it still has a sinful agenda attached. "Self" is still the focus, regardless of the emotion or attitude. Low self-esteem is still about focusing on ourselves - to either be better, bigger, bolder, whatever.
Rather than esteeming Jesus first in all things and learning how to have confidence in your position in Christ (which imo would be biblical esteem), we hang on to how we feel about ourselves and how others feel about us as more important than God.
Just because I see myself with a depraved heart does not mean that I am self-depracating...I am merely stating that in terms of God's mercy and grace - I have never and will never deserve it.
That should bring us to our knees in thanksgiving instead of guilt over not being good enough. Of course, we're not good enough - after all, Jesus died because there was no chance of us ever being good enough.
I bolded Doindoms response because I agree to a point. I also said in the following post that I just don't know how sinful low self esteem is.
It was her two following paragraphs that summed it up nicely.
If our identity is in Christ, then our "self-esteem is no longer about us, it becomes our confidence in Christ.
She didn't say that low self esteem is still esteeming one's self highly.
That makes no sense. Low self esteem means that someone doesn't value or regard themselves in any sort of worthy manner. There is no esteeming one's self highly, when they have low self esteem.
They aren't the same thing, one is soul sickness, the other is the healthy outcome from faith in Jesus.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 7:53:44 AM
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makarizo
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just a thought.......
to have low self esteem, one needs to ignore/brush aside the promises of Jesus, and put there 'self' up in the foreground ahead of the promises. back to the former things.
when you look in a mirror what do you see?
(James 1:24)
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 8:08:47 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
just a thought.......
to have low self esteem, one needs to ignore/brush aside the promises of Jesus, and put there 'self' up in the foreground ahead of the promises. back to the former things.
when you look in a mirror what do you see?
(James 1:24)
That is a true statement for all of us. We all were blind to Him before we chose Him.
I still think that for those who struggle, they haven't let go completely of it, allowing Him the opportunity to heal.
For some, it's a really long road, for others it's like a flash.
Knowing and trusting how He views us, just might help that one struggling, to let go of it.
Jesus doesn't want us to continue beating ourselves up over something that He already died for. What would be the point of that?
It's kind of like a friend who has wronged you, you've talked about, forgiven it, and every time they see you, they bring it up again and again. It doesn't change what's already been done, but it does continue to pour salt in the wound. It doubts the forgiveness that has been offered.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 5:05:12 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
She didn't say that low self esteem is still esteeming one's self highly.
That makes no sense. Low self esteem means that someone doesn't value or regard themselves in any sort of worthy manner. There is no esteeming one's self highly, when they have low self esteem.
What the Apostle Paul says of this in Philippians 2:3 is "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself." Humility is regarding others more, thinking of them rather than yourself. Low self esteem is regarding oneself more, thinking of oneself. So this would be the opposite of humility which is pride.
Anyway DD, low self esteem is an inordinate attention to me which I think is pride. But we can agree to disagree on this.
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 5:42:05 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Humility is regarding others more, thinking of them rather than yourself. Low self esteem is regarding oneself more, thinking of oneself. So this would be the opposite of humility which is pride.
We do have to disagree on this.
My concern is that people of regard others to the point of neglecting themselves. They will run to and fro for others, even when they are sick. They give every bit of their money away and can't even keep their lights on.
People who do this, from what I have see, then will go and bemoan others of their own miserable existence. Such as, "whoa is me, my lights are about to be cut off, I have no food to eat".
This is unhealthy and I do not for one minute believe that Jesus wants or expects this from us.
(It's probably important for you to know that my background is in sociology ) It certainly makes a different world view than most 
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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Delightfully Pardoned - more like! - 8/16/2008 6:23:36 PM
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oldmethuselah
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Deliveredarling...
A recent survey had americans rate their three WORST choices for next door neighbour...
1) Jehovah's Witnesses
2) Evangelical Christians
3) Hell's Angels (a distant third choice)
Simply put, WHATEVER we are SUPPOSED to view ourselves as, we come across as ARROGANT know-it-alls
About HALF of this accusation is undeserved, media manipulation and guilt of sinners faced with personal decision...
the OTHER half however is perfectly justified!
Now that is MOST unfortunate, since we SHOULD view ourselves as thirsty men in a desert who found an oasis and wants to tell others about it...
SURE we are children of the KING, but it Ain't cause of deserving it!
So, we should be joyful, receptive and encouraging to others (our neighbours) who don't yet know of God's Grace...
NOT beating ourselves on the back with whips as some religionists do,
but at the same time,
not HAUGHTY people who "have it all together"
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RE: Delightfully Pardoned - more like! - 8/16/2008 6:57:48 PM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
Deliveredarling...
A recent survey had americans rate their three WORST choices for next door neighbour...
1) Jehovah's Witnesses
2) Evangelical Christians
3) Hell's Angels (a distant third choice)
Simply put, WHATEVER we are SUPPOSED to view ourselves as, we come across as ARROGANT know-it-alls
About HALF of this accusation is undeserved, media manipulation and guilt of sinners faced with personal decision...
the OTHER half however is perfectly justified!
Now that is MOST unfortunate, since we SHOULD view ourselves as thirsty men in a desert who found an oasis and wants to tell others about it...
SURE we are children of the KING, but it Ain't cause of deserving it!
So, we should be joyful, receptive and encouraging to others (our neighbours) who don't yet know of God's Grace...
NOT beating ourselves on the back with whips as some religionists do,
but at the same time,
not HAUGHTY people who "have it all together"
Apparently, I am coming across as your above description, suggesting that we should appear as arrogant and haughty?
I don't recall a single post that even came close to us behaving in that manner.
I do and will continue to advocate a healthy balance. One of a serving attitude but not to the point that it causes one detriment.
ETA: Nowhere have I said or implied that we are deserving of our forgiveness.
I have stated or implied that if Christ has forgiven us, who are we to continue bringing it up as if the forgiveness wasn't enough. He made us new creatures, which means we are no longer the same creature, yet if we hold onto who we were before Christ, have we really accepted the forgiveness in the first place?
< Message edited by deliveredarling -- 8/16/2008 7:04:07 PM >
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 7:45:20 PM
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pstrdebi
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I truly believe that if those of us who profess to believe and trust in Jesus would confess our sin openly and stop pretending that we are righteous and wonderful before the watching world, more people would believe. Yes, I have been made righteous by Jesus. But the world sees 'me'. And they need to see a 'me' who is truly repentant and thankful for the salvation I've found in Jesus.
I understand what you are saying... so please don't take this the wrong way:
We have seen so many "Christians" who take the "This is me, and I'm repentant..." stance over and over and over and over. Yes, God forgives... 7 X 70.... and more.... however, if the watching world continues to see us "return to our vomit" so to speak... what kind of message are we sending? It's ok to be a sinning worm, because God will forgive me?
Just something to think about.
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 8:14:32 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
We have seen so many "Christians" who take the "This is me, and I'm repentant..." stance over and over and over and over. Yes, God forgives... 7 X 70.... and more.... however, if the watching world continues to see us "return to our vomit" so to speak... what kind of message are we sending? It's ok to be a sinning worm, because God will forgive me?
Nope, I won't take you the wrong way either cuz I luv ya, debi! And if I do, you'll have to straighten me out!
No, I am not using this as an excuse to sin. God forbid! (to quote my buddy Paul) But I do sin! And the Lord shows me my sin. And if I go to my brother or sister or whoever and confess my sin, they see someone who is tender to the things of God and wants to please Him but sometimes doesn't, KWIM?
As OldM said, many see Christians as arrogant knowitall's and certainly not humble, admitting when they've done wrong. And that is what I have seen in the church. Arrogant, prideful people who DO NOT SEE their own sin. That makes me want to vomit. And no, it's not a vomit I want to return to but it seems to happen over and over again because of all of the self righteousness.
Anyway, I do appreciate your challenges or prods, debi, and do ponder all that is said to me. I'm one of the ones sitting in the pew who thinks every word from the Lord is for me. So I want to listen and that includes to my brothers and sisters who I know are listening too and want the best for me. Bless ya! LL
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 8:18:49 PM
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Liveloved
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quote:
(It's probably important for you to know that my background is in sociology ) It certainly makes a different world view than most
DD,
I started out in psychology. Transferred to sociology. And ended up in Family Studies which is a more integrated approach viewing each individual as part of a 'family system' which I thought made the most sense. I have a Master's Degree in Family Studies so it is interesting that we have similar vocational backgrounds. But I think the differences we observe between us are definitely related to the biblical teaching we have received. LL
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 8:22:11 PM
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pstrdebi
Posts: 739
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From: So. Oregon, by way of So. Cal.
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
She didn't say that low self esteem is still esteeming one's self highly.
That makes no sense. Low self esteem means that someone doesn't value or regard themselves in any sort of worthy manner. There is no esteeming one's self highly, when they have low self esteem.
What the Apostle Paul says of this in Philippians 2:3 is "Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself." Humility is regarding others more, thinking of them rather than yourself. Low self esteem is regarding oneself more, thinking of oneself. So this would be the opposite of humility which is pride.
Anyway DD, low self esteem is an inordinate attention to me which I think is pride. But we can agree to disagree on this.
Uhhhh... humility is us being modest and unassuming in our attitude and behaviors.. When Paul is speaking he is telling us in our humility (taking on a humble spirit), think of others before we think of ourselves.
Low self esteem comes from not understanding who we are in Christ... it has nothing to do with regarding oneself more or thinking of oneself. It is completely the opposite. They are not regarding themself at all, or at least the way that God wants them to.
I don't believe that is nesesarily pride, but a lack of being proud. They have no confidence in themselves or in some cases, the God who made them. We have to love ourselves in a balanced way... if we don't learn to love ourselves, having confidence in the work that God is doing in and through us, how can we love others and think of others?
_____________________________
"For in Him we live and move and have our being..." Acts 17:28a
http://www.therockfellowship.org
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/16/2008 10:21:41 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1838
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quote:
Low self esteem comes from not understanding who we are in Christ... it has nothing to do with regarding oneself more or thinking of oneself. It is completely the opposite. They are not regarding themself at all, or at least the way that God wants them to.
I beg to differ. It certainly does result from not understanding who we are in Christ but that lack of understanding can still be a proud self preoccupation. And any thinking of self. . . me focus is what pride is all about. In other words it's all about me.
I do know that there are people who live in the realm of self deprecation. And that is my bent. But I had to come to see it as pride. And I truly believe that is what God wants me to see it as. Humility thinks of others and puts their needs first. That is where the Lord wants me to be.
Anyway, this obviously is another place we differ. Oh well. Love you both. LL
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RE: Delightfully Pardoned - more like! - 8/17/2008 4:14:28 AM
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oldmethuselah
Posts: 355
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quote:
Apparently, I am coming across as your above description, suggesting that we should appear as arrogant and haughty?
Actually, DD, I did not read any of THAT attitude in your OP, and was responding to the original question - I like that desert illustration because it is an apt description of our relative position as grace recipients
I seem to remember a speech in one of C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, where ASLAN is speaking to one of the children...
something along the lines of
"you are a child of Adam... a reason to both mourn and rejoice"
something like that...
the implication being that Adam was a most magnificient creation as well as being a very fallen one...
< Message edited by oldmethuselah -- 8/17/2008 4:21:49 AM >
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RE: Delightfully Pardoned - more like! - 8/17/2008 7:37:01 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
Joined: 8/30/2007
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quote:
Actually, DD, I did not read any of THAT attitude in your OP, and was responding to the original question - I like that desert illustration because it is an apt description of our relative position as grace recipients
I seem to remember a speech in one of C.S. Lewis's Narnia books, where ASLAN is speaking to one of the children...
something along the lines of
"you are a child of Adam... a reason to both mourn and rejoice"
something like that...
the implication being that Adam was a most magnificient creation as well as being a very fallen one...
I like that one, it made much better sense to me. Thank you for clarifying.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Are Christians supposed to view ourselves... - 8/17/2008 8:03:46 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1080
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Low self esteem comes from not understanding who we are in Christ... it has nothing to do with regarding oneself more or thinking of oneself. It is completely the opposite. They are not regarding themself at all, or at least the way that God wants them to.
I beg to differ. It certainly does result from not understanding who we are in Christ but that lack of understanding can still be a proud self preoccupation. And any thinking of self. . . me focus is what pride is all about. In other words it's all about me.
I do know that there are people who live in the realm of self deprecation. And that is my bent. But I had to come to see it as pride. And I truly believe that is what God wants me to see it as. Humility thinks of others and puts their needs first. That is where the Lord wants me to be.
Anyway, this obviously is another place we differ. Oh well. Love you both. LL
Yes, what we call low self esteem is rooted in pride. For example, if someone says, "I am ugly, I hate myself." What they are really saying is that they love themselves and they are upset because they are not better looking. If they truly hated themselves, they would be happy they were ugly.
The problem with us (all of us) is not that we need to love ourselves more, the problem is we love ourselves too much already. It is our perverted self love, our exalted self-image that is the problem, not the solution.
God says that the solution is the renewing of our minds, about Him, about ourselves, about others and about life. The solution is to believe what Scripture says about who we are in Christ, and who we are outside of the control of Christ.
Romans 7:18
“I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh; For I desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.”
This will be the condition of our flesh until we leave this arena, the flesh does not get better, and we will never get perfection from what is imperfect.
Until we get to...
Romans 7:24
“What a wretched man that I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?”
We will never realize the joy and freedom of...
Romans 7:25
“Thanks be to God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!”
In and of ourselves...we are doomed to a life of certain failure. Because the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit. But God has not left us alone. We who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ are also indwelt by the Spirit of God. And He leads us from within...
Galatians 5:16
“So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh”
...and there is the solution. It doesn't say clean up the flesh and then you will be spiritual. It doesn't say love yourself more. It says live by the Spirit, live in total dependence upon the indwelling Spirit of God...and then you will not be doing what the flesh desires.
We must accept as our self image what God says about us. And who we now are as Children of God is because of Christ, not ourselves. The punishment for our sins went on Jesus Christ 2000 years ago, and there is none left for us who are in Him. It is not because we are perfect in ourselves, it is because we are indwelt by the Perfect One...and because He has done for us what we could never do for ourselves.
Peace
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"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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