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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:04:47 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Now that was impressive! You convey such great substance in your posts!
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
You know, you need to find another hobby. If all you can do is twist peoples' words and skew them into your own reasoning, you are only roiling the waters. At first, a little of your trolling was kinda humorous. Now it's getting pretty tiresome. It's always the same needling, parsing, and one-upsmanship. Please try to contribute something worthwhile instead of trying to get us worked up. Please?
-Dave
Another carry, another fumble. One more chance blown.
"I'll say one thing for him, he's consistent!"
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:05:56 PM
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Evangel70
Posts: 554
Joined: 10/28/2006
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Let's break down what you consider making fun of the bible...
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And even if we did have only Christians in our midst, if we expelled every non-Christian from the United States of America, whose Christianity would we teach in the schools? Would we go with James Dobson's, or Al Sharpton's?
Obama here states the FACT that we have almost 2000 "brands" of Christianity. If conservatives what to bring Christianity into our schools , what brand of Christianity would that be? Would you teach catholicism and loyalty to the Pope? Would you teach the baptist doctrine or once saved, always saved? How about the presbyterian doctrine of predistination? Or perhaps Rev. Wright's black liberation theology?
Do you understand Obama's point (and that of many Christians who don't want religion brought into schools)?
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Should we go with Leviticus, which suggests slavery is ok and that eating shellfish is abomination? How about Deuteronomy, which suggests stoning your child if he strays from the faith?
Here Obama is saying (tongue in cheek) that if you want to use legislate using the bible, you have to use ALL of it -- included the OT and not just pick and choose which parts of the bible are worthy of obedience.
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Or should we just stick to the Sermon on the Mount - a passage that is so radical that it's doubtful that our own Defense Department would survive its application? So before we get carried away, let's read our bibles. Folks haven't been reading their bibles.
I would agree here. How do you legislate loving your neighbor; keeping your word; giving to the needy; importance of prayer and fasting, etc. If folks read their bibles, they'd see that these are not virtures that can be "legislated". How do you legislate faith?
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I may be opposed to abortion for religious reasons, but if I seek to pass a law banning the practice, I cannot simply point to the teachings of my church or evoke God's will.
This has been discussed in other threads but bears repeating. You can't just legislate "because the bible tells me so". Imagine if a politician tried to legislate that women must wear head coverings when in public because that's what the Koran teaches. Abortion should be discussed in terms of regarding sanctity of life, not simply as a biblical mandate.
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Now this is going to be difficult for some who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible, as many evangelicals do. But in a pluralistic democracy, we have no choice.
Politics depends on our ability to persuade each other of common aims based on a common reality. It involves the compromise, the art of what's possible. At some fundamental level, religion does not allow for compromise. It's the art of the impossible. If God has spoken, then followers are expected to live up to God's edicts, regardless of the consequences.
I find no fault here. When speaking of the bible, one cannot compromise. Either Jesus is the son of God or he isn't -- there is no compromise when it comes to the basic tenent of the bible. However, in politics, everything can't be black and white. In order for government to work, there must be compromise. We don't have clones or stepford robots in congress. The reason we have so much gridlock is due to lack of compromise.
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But it's fair to say that if any of us leaving this church saw Abraham on a roof of a building raising his knife, we would, at the very least, call the police and expect the Department of Children and Family Services to take Isaac away from Abraham. We would do so because we do not hear what Abraham hears, do not see what Abraham sees, true as those experiences may be. So the best we can do is act in accordance with those things that we all see, and that we all hear, be it common laws or basic reason.
I don't know anyone who seeing an adult take a knife to a child (or another adult for that matter) wouldn't attempt to stop it or at least call 9-11. If the attacker is saying they're hearing from God, they would probably end up in some mental hospital after their release from jail.
Obama here is just stating the obvious that just because YOU believe something to be true (i.e. the teachings of the bible) doesn't mean that EVERYONE around you holds the same view. Thus lies the falacy of trying to legislate issues of faith.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:19:32 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
The best anyone came up with was *McCain didn't mean a 100-year military occupation*, at best an evasion of the real issue, but even that individual was unable to explain exactly WHAT McCain was talking about if it wasn't that. Be that as it may, leave out the 100-year limt. HOW LONG a military occupation is McCain talking about? Another two years? Another five? "Aslong as *IT* takes - without being able to explain what *IT* is? Ten years? Twenty? Who can say? - since noone has come up with a coherent definintion of what we are trying to acheive.
That is the only issue - your entire point was premised on a false reading of McCain's statement - as he didn't say or propose what you have disingenously suggested he did, there is no reason to 'defend' that fictional position.
And his full quote has been given explaining exactly what he meant - and I think any reasonable person could support that position.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:34:26 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The best anyone came up with was *McCain didn't mean a 100-year military occupation*, at best an evasion of the real issue, but even that individual was unable to explain exactly WHAT McCain was talking about if it wasn't that. Be that as it may, leave out the 100-year limt. HOW LONG a military occupation is McCain talking about? Another two years? Another five? "Aslong as *IT* takes - without being able to explain what *IT* is? Ten years? Twenty? Who can say? - since noone has come up with a coherent definintion of what we are trying to acheive.
That is the only issue - your entire point was premised on a false reading of McCain's statement - as he didn't say or propose what you have disingenously suggested he did, there is no reason to 'defend' that fictional position.
And his full quote has been given explaining exactly what he meant - and I think any reasonable person could support that position.
Sigh - another carry, another fumble.
You just CAN'T bring yourself to endorse McCain's views on Iraq, can you? Yet you can't bring yourself to reject them, either.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:39:31 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
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Jack said "REASONABLE PERSON".
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
The best anyone came up with was *McCain didn't mean a 100-year military occupation*, at best an evasion of the real issue, but even that individual was unable to explain exactly WHAT McCain was talking about if it wasn't that. Be that as it may, leave out the 100-year limt. HOW LONG a military occupation is McCain talking about? Another two years? Another five? "Aslong as *IT* takes - without being able to explain what *IT* is? Ten years? Twenty? Who can say? - since noone has come up with a coherent definintion of what we are trying to acheive.
That is the only issue - your entire point was premised on a false reading of McCain's statement - as he didn't say or propose what you have disingenously suggested he did, there is no reason to 'defend' that fictional position.
And his full quote has been given explaining exactly what he meant - and I think any reasonable person could support that position.
Sigh - another carry, another fumble.
You just CAN'T bring yourself to endorse McCain's views on Iraq, can you? Yet you can't bring yourself to reject them, either.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 12:54:52 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Jack said "REASONABLE PERSON".
I like to assume the best, and yet he keeps proving me wrong...
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 1:02:09 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
You just CAN'T bring yourself to endorse McCain's views on Iraq, can you? Yet you can't bring yourself to reject them, either.
I'll try one more time, then assume this a case of fingers in your ears, "I can't hear you" ploy on your part.
I support McCain's views as he stated them - that being, if we have troops in Iraq one hundred years from now in the same manner as we have troops in Japan or Korea today, then I think that wouldn't be a bad thing - perhaps it would even be the best thing, as it belies an alliance of like-minded nations working together for common security goals.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 1:30:17 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You just CAN'T bring yourself to endorse McCain's views on Iraq, can you? Yet you can't bring yourself to reject them, either.
I'll try one more time, then assume this a case of fingers in your ears, "I can't hear you" ploy on your part.
I support McCain's views as he stated them - that being, if we have troops in Iraq one hundred years from now in the same manner as we have troops in Japan or Korea today, then I think that wouldn't be a bad thing - perhaps it would even be the best thing, as it belies an alliance of like-minded nations working together for common security goals.
Fair enough.
Now, how lkong are you willing to have combat troops on the ground, how do you define 'victory', and how will you recognize it when it gets here, if ever?
The current Bush policy is as far from 'allied armies in residence' as you can get, so it is useless wishful thinking to pretend otherwise in your answer, as if somehow the two were the same, the classic straw man illogic.
So here's the question again - are you in support of McCain's promise to continue the occupation as it currently exists (reality check), for some undefined perid of time? Or not?
It's a simple queston, a yes-no answer, and trying to change it to something else doesn't change it.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 3:44:53 PM
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Dred
Posts: 231
Joined: 10/11/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
The current Bush policy is as far from 'allied armies in residence' as you can get, so it is useless wishful thinking to pretend otherwise in your answer, as if somehow the two were the same, the classic straw man illogic.
So here's the question again - are you in support of McCain's promise to continue the occupation as it currently exists (reality check), for some undefined perid of time? Or not?
Again? Do you mean this one?
quote:
SO here's the question - do you, or do you not, support McCain's plans to continue the Iraq war/occupation, for a "hundred years" or however long it turns out, or not?
That question was certainly a straw man as Jhud has so patiently showed. Exposing a straw man built by another is not the same as building one himself.
Your new question seems to be equivalent to asking whether McCain should know precisely when the occupation must either fundamentally change or cease to exist. I don't know whether he should know this right now, but I doubt it. I have some thoughts on Iraq, but that is not the topic of this thread.
quote:
soi-disant
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/26/2008 4:23:52 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dred
quote:
The current Bush policy is as far from 'allied armies in residence' as you can get, so it is useless wishful thinking to pretend otherwise in your answer, as if somehow the two were the same, the classic straw man illogic.
So here's the question again - are you in support of McCain's promise to continue the occupation as it currently exists (reality check), for some undefined perid of time? Or not?
Again? Do you mean this one?
quote:
SO here's the question - do you, or do you not, support McCain's plans to continue the Iraq war/occupation, for a "hundred years" or however long it turns out, or not?
That question was certainly a straw man as Jhud has so patiently showed. Exposing a straw man built by another is not the same as building one himself.
Your new question seems to be equivalent to asking whether McCain should know precisely when the occupation must either fundamentally change or cease to exist. I don't know whether he should know this right now, but I doubt it. I have some thoughts on Iraq, but that is not the topic of this thread.
quote:
soi-disant
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
--Inigo Montoya
The current situation in Iraq - a matter of fact - is what either McCAin or Obama is going to have to deal with.
The facts are that our involvement there contiunues to be one of a military occupation. Obama has stated straight-forward that that involvement will end. McCAin has stated straight-forward that it will continue.
Leaving aside the question of whether the current FACTUAL military occupation can evolve somehow into some future WISHFUL THINKING allied-forces-in-residence scenario, is ANYONE here willing to support McCain's position on the situation AS IT EXISTS today? Or for the foreseeable future?
Over and over and over again the McCainbackerObamabashers on this Forum have chosen to duck that question - trying to replace it with some rose-colored glasses alternate reality, or quibbling over the grammar or the phrasing, or some snarky comment on McCAin's more-trustworthiness than Obama, or some such silly side-dealing.
NO ONE has chosen to support McCain's intended continuation of the status quo as a reason to elect the guy. Which means that you are pushing to elect a candidate with which you disagree, or worse, don't care, about his position on the matter.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 10:50:42 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I hate to respond to this because of your seemingly overwhelming desire to play word games with us, or as you so eloquently put it "quibbling over the grammar or the phrasing, or some snarky comment" with us. However, here goes:
The fact of the matter is that we are in Iraq with military forces. It does no good at this point in time to argue whether we should or should not be there. Since we are there, we need to complete the task we started. That entails our troops remaining until the freely elected government of Iraq (not the UN, not Russia, not Iran, and not some socialist, world government crackpot in Washington DC) either is able to take over the role we have been assuming, or officially tells us it is time to leave. Then we should begin a gradual pullout.
Now, I believe that as you put it "McCain's intended continuation of the status quo," is just the conditions I set forth in the above statement. There has been great progress toward peace and reconciliation with the various Iraqi factions. They are taking more and more responsibility for security. The Iraqi government is talking about a troop withdrawal timeframe. It is probably going to happen in the near future.
I hope I have answered your challenge to the McCain supporters here. I don't speak for anyone other than myself.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
The current situation in Iraq - a matter of fact - is what either McCAin or Obama is going to have to deal with.
The facts are that our involvement there contiunues to be one of a military occupation. Obama has stated straight-forward that that involvement will end. McCAin has stated straight-forward that it will continue.
Leaving aside the question of whether the current FACTUAL military occupation can evolve somehow into some future WISHFUL THINKING allied-forces-in-residence scenario, is ANYONE here willing to support McCain's position on the situation AS IT EXISTS today? Or for the foreseeable future?
Over and over and over again the McCainbackerObamabashers on this Forum have chosen to duck that question - trying to replace it with some rose-colored glasses alternate reality, or quibbling over the grammar or the phrasing, or some snarky comment on McCAin's more-trustworthiness than Obama, or some such silly side-dealing.
NO ONE has chosen to support McCain's intended continuation of the status quo as a reason to elect the guy. Which means that you are pushing to elect a candidate with which you disagree, or worse, don't care, about his position on the matter.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 11:11:56 AM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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Another day
Another poster
Another failure to endorse McCain's positions on the major foreign-policy issue likely to face his Preidency.
How can you vote for the man if you can't support his positions on major issues?
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 11:22:13 AM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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I SUPPORT HIM!!! What part of that don't you understand?
Another incredible response on your part. Keep it up and no one will want to respond to you at all.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
Another day
Another poster
Another failure to endorse McCain's positions on the major foreign-policy issue likely to face his Preidency.
How can you vote for the man if you can't support his positions on major issues?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 11:52:51 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Fair enough.
Now, how lkong are you willing to have combat troops on the ground, how do you define 'victory', and how will you recognize it when it gets here, if ever?
Personally? I think combat troops are already being drawn down, and as long as the relatively minimal violence continues and the Iraqi government continues to step up to bat, I think the lion’s share of the troops will probably be out in the next few years. I have no problem, as I said, with a contingent remaining on permanent bases as we do with other countries.
quote:
The current Bush policy is as far from 'allied armies in residence' as you can get, so it is useless wishful thinking to pretend otherwise in your answer, as if somehow the two were the same, the classic straw man illogic.
Actually, I think the administration just announced initial withdrawals, and seems amenable to the Iraqi initiatives.
quote:
So here's the question again - are you in support of McCain's promise to continue the occupation as it currently exists (reality check), for some undefined perid of time? Or not?
You seem to be either intentionally or unintentionally conflating the current administration's plans, and what McCain’s response was to the question. As much as McCain’s plan comports with the full statement given (acknowledging plans can change as conditions change – much as Obama’s statements have changed accordingly), I support that plan.
quote:
It's a simple queston, a yes-no answer, and trying to change it to something else doesn't change it.
Actually, it’s not all that simple, and it isn’t fixed in stone, nor should it be.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 4:20:29 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It's a simple queston, a yes-no answer, and trying to change it to something else doesn't change it.
Actually, it’s not all that simple, and it isn’t fixed in stone, nor should it be.
Swish. Strike three. Game over.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 4:22:22 PM
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tafkam
Posts: 2143
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Swish. Strike three. Game over.
I'm safely on Swede's ignore list, but could somebody please remind him that just because you scream "I WIN!", it doesn't actually mean that you do?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 8:10:31 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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In another thread, I told him I was fed up with him and his monkey business and to have a good life. I won't respond to him anymore. He has nothing useful to contribute. He only wants to stir up trouble.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
quote:
Swish. Strike three. Game over.
I'm safely on Swede's ignore list, but could somebody please remind him that just because you scream "I WIN!", it doesn't actually mean that you do?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/27/2008 9:45:26 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
The facts are that our involvement there contiunues to be one of a military occupation. Obama has stated straight-forward that that involvement will end. McCAin has stated straight-forward that it will continue.
The fact is Mr. Obama has made mentioned he'd speak with the commanders in the field regarding our involvement which given how politics works that cannot be seen as anything but a way out of his sorta straight-forward remarks about ending our involvement... Much the same way you see McCain view of the rape exception regarding abortion...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/28/2008 2:55:22 AM
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Thessa
Posts: 811
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Obama here is just stating the obvious that just because YOU believe something to be true (i.e. the teachings of the bible) doesn't mean that EVERYONE around you holds the same view. Thus lies the falacy of trying to legislate issues of faith.
I know what hes saying. I know its true that not everyone believes the same thing, but hes definately saying that hes not going to hold up to the words of the bible. Thats what hes saying.
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/28/2008 11:07:27 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: offline
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quote:
Swish. Strike three. Game over.
Oooops, wrong - Jack hits the ball out of the park, and casually saunters around the bases, waving to the throngs of adoring fans. Swede is confounded, he can't understand how his weak pitches continually take a ride on the homerun express - he walks away from the mound dejected, fully aware of his complete and utter failure as a rhetorician.
Wow swede, thanks for introducing me to this - I didn't realize how fun it was to declare one's own victory through a baseball metaphor.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/28/2008 11:15:43 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Thessa
quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
Obama here is just stating the obvious that just because YOU believe something to be true (i.e. the teachings of the bible) doesn't mean that EVERYONE around you holds the same view. Thus lies the falacy of trying to legislate issues of faith.
I know what hes saying. I know its true that not everyone believes the same thing, but hes definately saying that hes not going to hold up to the words of the bible. Thats what hes saying.
not to mention, you can't separate law from morality...and you have to define where morality comes from.
the direction of secular humanism is a fallaced one littered with dirty rags.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: Reasons to vote for John McCain - 8/28/2008 1:47:01 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1032
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: offline
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It's going............going..............gone! A home run! How about that, sports fans!!!
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Swish. Strike three. Game over.
Oooops, wrong - Jack hits the ball out of the park, and casually saunters around the bases, waving to the throngs of adoring fans. Swede is confounded, he can't understand how his weak pitches continually take a ride on the homerun express - he walks away from the mound dejected, fully aware of his complete and utter failure as a rhetorician.
Wow swede, thanks for introducing me to this - I didn't realize how fun it was to declare one's own victory through a baseball metaphor.
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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