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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 8:23:59 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
PDL can serve a purpose, but it is milk, not meat. That was the basic premise that I have stated.
Spoiled "milk"
What is your meaning when you say "spoiled"? What exactly is your beef with a book that discusses how a Christian can find his/her purpose instead of being what an old sergeant buddy of mine used to call "OTF" or "out there flapping"?
I've outlined my beef numerous times in this and other PDL threads.
Questionable theology, misuse and/or partial use of Scripture, quoting of enemies of Christianity, using translations to fit a point rather than the other way around
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 8:38:03 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jayvance
quote:
So, the gospel is diluted in that, it leaves out the sin/holiness aspects which more oft turns the general public off. This is an imporatnt doctrine to set the scene. Without this, how can the Holy Spirit convict? What disciple can you create without the realisation of this fundamental aspect of the Truth of Jesus?
Again, we must agreeably disagree. I believe it is the Holy Spirit who "sets the scene," not the preacher. In my own personal experience and observation over 30+ years of ministry, the folks who make a quick decision to accept Christ based on a sermon about sin and punishment are MUCH less likely to follow through than those whose path to conversion is prompted by an ongoing hunger in their hearts for something more than the self-centered life they've been living. Furthermore, I have found that it is God's love which leads to my holiness, not the other way around.
In any case, as I said previously, you and I will simply have to disagree on the issue of whether or not the PDL book and the entire PDL approach is capable of producing mature, doctrinally sound disciples; I think it can and you think it can't, and that's okay. We won't fight about it. Ultimately God will have the final say anyway.
Jay
Yes, the Holy Spirit sets the scene. But, the preaching of the gospel is the key to the Holy Sprirt carrying out the convicting. Look at Acts: ALL the disciples preach the word before the crowd response. Its no Todd bentley thingy!  Whhether the folks who accept finishes the race is not the issue here. Thats disciplehip and the lot coming along the way. But the right gospel sets the scene and the right gospel IS of the Holy Spirit.
Acts 3
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
Start with wrong gospel, you are aslo setting a scene but not that of the Holy Spirit.
quote:
Ultimately God will have the final say anyway.
Sorry, but this is a cope out. If we use words like this, we might as well just twiddlle our thumbs and do nothing.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 8:40:52 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Good point. If we were so inclined we could find contradictions to God's word in each and every teacher there is (including me  )...
But the question lies in how far are you willing to go to find those contradictions? If it's a teacher people like, they don't dig very far. If it's a teacher people don't like, they typically keep digging until they find something and say, "I didn't have to look hard. It's right there!"
If its a teacher who has great influence over the body.........the more is given, the more is required of him to be accountable.....
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:20:59 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
Good point. If we were so inclined we could find contradictions to God's word in each and every teacher there is (including me )...
But the question lies in how far are you willing to go to find those contradictions? If it's a teacher people like, they don't dig very far. If it's a teacher people don't like, they typically keep digging until they find something and say, "I didn't have to look hard. It's right there!"
If its a teacher who has great influence over the body.........the more is given, the more is required of him to be accountable.....
quote:
Teachers are more accountable, but to say that one teacher is more accountable than another is simply hogwash. No teacher has more spiritual guidance than another, no teacher has information exclusive to him or her.
Please back up that statement that greater influence means greater responsibility. I know to whom much is given much is required, but I need some proof that that statement applies to influence as you're saying. I don't buy it.
i agree teachers are more accountable....
You dont have to buy anything.....its siomple
Pastor Wang zie chiang has a congregation over here of 200. He teaches them well....or not?
Whereas RW....
http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2008/1101080818_400.jpg
http://img.timeinc.net/time/covers/1101050207/photoessay/photos/splash_top.gif
The Purpose Driven Life (2002) is a devotional book written by Christian author Rick Warren and published by Zondervan. The book has been on the New York Times Best Seller list for advice books for 174 weeks (as of May 2006). The book offers readers a 40-day personal spiritual journey, and presents what Warren says are God's five purposes for human life on Earth.
Since September 2002, over 30,000 congregations, corporations, and sports teams across the United States have participated in a "40 Days of Purpose" emphasis. A May 2005 survey of American pastors and ministers conducted by George Barna asked Christian leaders to identify what books were the most influential on their lives and ministries. The Purpose Driven Life was the most frequent response.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Purpose_Driven_Life
His influence is great....
< Message edited by prophet -- 8/20/2008 10:29:12 PM >
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:23:08 PM
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armydude
Posts: 16891
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My question remains. Can you show me biblical proof that a teacher with a larger congregation has greater responsibility than one with a small congregation?
Again, I don't buy it. IMO it's hogwash. But I'm open minded. Show me some scripture please.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:27:13 PM
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christiancapitalist
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let me get this straight. warren teaches that the bible is the perfect word of god. check. he preaches that jesus christ is the only way to heaven. check. he teaches people to overcome selfishness and realize that their only purpose in life is to glorify god. check. according to an article in time magazine, with the proceeds from his book, he repaid his church his salary for the last 20 years, consistently gives away 90% of what he makes, and lives on the rest. check. he is feeding the poor, the sick, and the lame in africa. check. ummmmm, aren't some people making mountains out of mole hills? he's accomplished more for god in the first half of his life than most will do in their entire lives. please, leave the man alone. can't you people find something better to do than to criticize a fellow christian? besides, as it was said in the book of acts, "if this is man, it will fail. if it is of god, do not stand in their way."
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My God can beat up your god
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:28:21 PM
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armydude
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quote:
ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist
ummmmm, aren't some people making mountains out of mole hills?
Check.
_____________________________
No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:43:30 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
"if this is man, it will fail. if it is of god, do not stand in their way."
This does not check.... You think Gamaliel was inspired of God?
Are you saying it was human inspiration that drove a member of the Sanhedrin to speak out against his fellow members and for these followers of Jesus?
quote:
if this is man, it will fail. if it is of god, do not stand in their way."
Yes it was ahuman inspriation....
For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed F10 him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed F11 him, were dispersed.
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:49:37 PM
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armydude
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We're going to have to agree to disagree on that (among many other things apparently)...
Human inspiration? HOW?
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No act of kindness is too small when measured by nail-pierced hands.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:55:30 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
We're going to have to agree to disagree on that (among many other things apparently)...
Human inspiration? HOW?
I posted this before Gamliels famous lines:
35 And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men. 36 For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain; and all, as many as obeyed F10 him, were scattered, and brought to nought. 37 After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as obeyed F11 him, were dispersed. 38 And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
He was inspired by past events. Simple logic. Peter says its of God. Peter will simply disappear like the rest before him if its is not of God.
You can see here that Gamaliels reasoning was wrong in that we now know Peter perished like the others, but the Gospel lived on.....Halleluyah
< Message edited by prophet -- 8/20/2008 11:02:34 PM >
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/20/2008 10:57:43 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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"if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
The problem with this is that in the short-term evil sometimes triumphs, whereas the cause of God apparently fails. You can see this in our Lord's ministry, when we are told that 'many drew back and no longer walked with him' (John 6:66), and by the time of the crucifixion the disciples forsook him and fled.
Conversely, if you follow the Gamaliel principle to its logical conclusion, you would have to say that religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and modern movements such as Mormonism are all inspired by God, because they are still gaining adherents. The criteria for discerning spiritual authenticity is clearly not whether something fails or survives over time. Truth has never been decided by the counting of heads.
Far better is the example of the Bereans, about whom we read: 'they examined the scriptures every day to see if these things were true.' (Acts 17:11). Surely this is the yardstick for spiritual discernment. Are these things affirmed or condemned by the Bible?
_____________________________
Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 10:10:32 AM
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jayvance
Posts: 58
Joined: 3/23/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
This guy writes a book about how Christians can find their purpose and there are multiple threads about how it's bad? Is that all we look for? 
My purpose as a Christian is to worship and glorify God as well as go and make disciples. Who needs a book and 40 day program for that?
I don't think anyone is saying you NEED PDL. Nor is anyone saying PDL is the last best hope for mankind. But that's a far cry from saying PDL is promoting false doctrine or creating false converts. The fact is that many spiritually grounded, mature Christians have been inspired and provoked to love and good works by PDL, while others who have used PDL in some form or fashion have no doubt gotten off track in some way. But that can be said about EVERY book that's ever been written--it can even be said about people who don't read anything other than the Bible!
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 10:49:57 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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His book helped me.
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 11:05:02 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
The results are SHOCKING but not surprising because many Bereans have been warning for years that the seeker-sensitive / purpose-driven model was creating false converts and now there is hard statistical data that backs up this claim.
Granger’s own qualitative study revealed that:
47% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in salvation by grace.
57% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe in the authority of the Bible.
56% of those attending Granger DO NOT believe Jesus is the only way to eternal life.
The study had nothing to do with "converts". The study was about the beliefs of those who were "attending" the church.
If your church is geered toward helping invite in "seekers" then I would say the stats are showing that they are succeeding at that.
Now if you follow these seekers over time I would be interested in seeing those results and comparing them to the average lost person who attends one of your services over time.
Right now I teach the youth. We have several new converts in the class. Depending upon how the questions were phrased I bet they would have answered incorrectly. Sometimes we "mature believers" forget that knowing certain doctrines and american christian theological termonology is not a "requirement" for true conversion.
From my experience most of the people who have a problem with Rick come from the Reformed Theology camp. Knowing that I now "expect" them to attack his beliefs and teachings. Of course they would. They are on the opposite side of the coin.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/21/2008 11:57:28 AM >
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 11:24:49 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
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Soxfan,
Are you going to edit your OP and the title of this thread so that it's truthful or are you going to leave the false statment in tact?
Once you get some "hard statistical facts" to back up your false statment let me know. Otherwise this is just another one of your "witch hunts".
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/21/2008 11:39:14 AM >
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 1:08:35 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1498
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
The study had nothing to do with "converts". The study was about the beliefs of those who were "attending" the church.
If your church is geered toward helping invite in "seekers" then I would say the stats are showing that they are succeeding at that.
Now if you follow these seekers over time I would be interested in seeing those results and comparing them to the average lost person who attends one of your services over time.
Right now I teach the youth. We have several new converts in the class. Depending upon how the questions were phrased I bet they would have answered incorrectly. Sometimes we "mature believers" forget that knowing certain doctrines and american christian theological termonology is not a "requirement" for true conversion.
I don't recall Jesus using "seeker friendly" language when he called the disciples to follow Him, or when He would speak to those that would gather to listen to Him
I also don't recall the disciples using "seeker friendly" language or using programs and classes to reach the thousands that were saved in Acts.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 1:28:06 PM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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So you are going to leave your lie in bold letters for all to see.
quote:
P31W
I don't need "hard statistical facts".
You said you had them. That is why you started this thread. The TRUTH IS YOU DON"T have them.
You lied.
Now to use "biblical American language".
Thou shalt not lie.
What is wrose is that you are being a false witness in your OP and with your title. You refuse to correct these false statement and are trying to justify your sin.
Isn't there a passage about a log and a splinter that apply here?
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/21/2008 1:37:49 PM >
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