RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians!
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 8/21/2008 5:40:28 PM
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armydude
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Thank you Jimbo.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 8/21/2008 8:03:20 PM
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prophet
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Because of poop-ularity, lots of lazy pastors use it to re3place bible studies for even matured believers.
40 days of wastage which could be spent in the gleaning through His word. Some do not even bring their bibles. Some are so confused due to the crocked translations used!
My ex pastor used it for the youth group cos no one had time to teach the group 
Is this summarised statement descriptive of PDL?
quote:
Warren fails to present the evangelical Christian gospel accurately--failing to accurately represent the nature of sin, repentance and hell, as well as the blood sacrifice of God's son Jesus as the means to be forgiven by God for sins and which allows man to have a relationship with God.Some critics accuse him of absolving his readers of moral responsibility by making Satan into an all-pervasive godlike figure contrary to both orthodox theology and psychological soundness, and some contend that when citing Scripture, Warren jumps from one Bible version to another, cherry-picking whichever paraphrase or translation supports whatever point he attempts to convey. The practice of using translations selectively is defended by others.Yet another common complaint pertains to Warren's statement that "Whenever God wanted to prepare someone for his purposes, he took forty days"--a claim which critics affirm to be both overly broad and contradicted by Scripture.[/quote]
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 8/21/2008 8:21:25 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: armydude
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Because of poop-ularity, lots of lazy pastors use it to re3place bible studies for even matured believers.
40 days of wastage which could be spent in the gleaning through His word. Some do not even bring their bibles. Some are so confused due to the crocked translations used!
My ex pastor used it for the youth group cos no one had time to teach the group
So you're blaming Warren for what pastors do with his book? Can you explain how that works?
Can I hold Chrysler responsible for a drunk driver misusing their cars? Of course not. So why hold Warren responsible for what pastors do with his book?
Oh yeah.. "poop-ularity?" How old are you?
i am blaming RW for writing a book using questionable paraphrased versions, which coupled with lazy pastors annd young sheep spells disastor....how old are you?
i am old enough to know the deception PDL brings into the life of young believers.
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 8/21/2008 8:52:47 PM
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Neeva_Candida
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quote:
Answering a question with a question and avoiding it is all I need to know.
Jesus frequently answered questions with questions.
~Neeva
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 9:29:09 PM
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christiancapitalist
Posts: 46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
"if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: 39 But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God."
The problem with this is that in the short-term evil sometimes triumphs, whereas the cause of God apparently fails. You can see this in our Lord's ministry, when we are told that 'many drew back and no longer walked with him' (John 6:66), and by the time of the crucifixion the disciples forsook him and fled.
Conversely, if you follow the Gamaliel principle to its logical conclusion, you would have to say that religions such as Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism and modern movements such as Mormonism are all inspired by God, because they are still gaining adherents. The criteria for discerning spiritual authenticity is clearly not whether something fails or survives over time. Truth has never been decided by the counting of heads.
Far better is the example of the Bereans, about whom we read: 'they examined the scriptures every day to see if these things were true.' (Acts 17:11). Surely this is the yardstick for spiritual discernment. Are these things affirmed or condemned by the Bible?
that wasn't my point. my point is that, in the end, he will be judged by God for his actions, not by man. i'm talking about eternal failure and eternal success. whatever else you say about him, warren gives all credit and constantly points to christ. shallow converts they may be, but hell is a little less empty due to his actions. i hope the same can be said about me
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 9:32:54 PM
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christiancapitalist
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i hear many accusations of warren paraphrasing verses. so what? when paul wrote romans, did he put verses and chapters in it? no, i don't think so. they were added centuries later to make the bible easier to break down and find specific information. there's nothing wrong with paraphrasing a verse. you could just as well accuse someone of paraphrasing matthew by only quoting one verse instead of the whole book!
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/21/2008 9:57:48 PM
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Rick4Him
Posts: 102
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cc,
I must disagrre with your assesment on Warrens paraphrasing. Paraphrasing isn't using one verse of scripture to make a point. Paraphrasing is more of a rewording of scripture to make it modern or to fit a certian presupposition. The problem isn't Waren paraphrasing, it is Warren using paraphrased versions of scripture in a suspicious manner. If I still had one of his books I could show you. He'll take several verses and partial verses all from different versions including some paraphrased versions and mix them to make"his" point. There is nothing wrong about using different verses to make ones point, but when it is so obvious that one uses the different versions and mixed partial texts in a way that is completely out of context from the original autographs, we must point this out as wrong.
I'm not sure I understand you complaint about adding chapter and verse to the texts?
Rick
quote:
ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist
i hear many accusations of warren paraphrasing verses. so what? when paul wrote romans, did he put verses and chapters in it? no, i don't think so. they were added centuries later to make the bible easier to break down and find specific information. there's nothing wrong with paraphrasing a verse. you could just as well accuse someone of paraphrasing matthew by only quoting one verse instead of the whole book!
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/22/2008 3:42:26 AM
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prophet
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quote:
shallow converts they may be, but hell is a little less empty due to his actions
Just because someone presents 'Christ'?
Do you agree with the gospel of the Mormons?
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/22/2008 3:46:38 AM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist
i hear many accusations of warren paraphrasing verses. so what? when paul wrote romans, did he put verses and chapters in it? no, i don't think so. they were added centuries later to make the bible easier to break down and find specific information. there's nothing wrong with paraphrasing a verse. you could just as well accuse someone of paraphrasing matthew by only quoting one verse instead of the whole book!
HUH?
Paraphrase
1. a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.
2. the act or process of restating or rewording.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paraphrase
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/22/2008 9:01:59 AM
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P31W
Posts: 3005
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Questionable theology, misuse and/or partial use of Scripture, quoting of enemies of Christianity, using translations to fit a point rather than the other way around
Soxfan,
This is not the first time I have caught you trying to throw the kitchen sink at RW.
To be honest with you I don't find you to be a very trustworthy poster.
What I also find very telling is that in one post you talk about your chruch using this material because ---and this is your direct quote "The leadership felt that this model did NOTHING to prepare new believers for further spiritual growth"
What I find hard to believe is that YOUR CHRUCH filled with such WISE MATURE BELIEVERS would allow material to be taught that YOU SAY contains......"Questionable theology, misuse and/or partial use of Scripture, quoting of enemies of Christianity, using translations to fit a point rather than the other way around"
It appears to me that your entire Mature Chruch is the one who is twisted if they didn't know what they were doing to begin with and were offering this type of terrible material to it's new converts. SHAME SHAME on your "mature Chruch" filled with believers such as yourself.
< Message edited by P31W -- 8/22/2008 9:35:33 AM >
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/23/2008 7:18:17 PM
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christiancapitalist
Posts: 46
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: christiancapitalist
i hear many accusations of warren paraphrasing verses. so what? when paul wrote romans, did he put verses and chapters in it? no, i don't think so. they were added centuries later to make the bible easier to break down and find specific information. there's nothing wrong with paraphrasing a verse. you could just as well accuse someone of paraphrasing matthew by only quoting one verse instead of the whole book!
HUH?
Paraphrase
1. a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.
2. the act or process of restating or rewording.
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/paraphrase
Sorry, I was mixing up two points into one. Let me clarify. I see nothing wrong with only using parts of scripture, as long as they don't violate the context in which they were written. For example, I heard a pastor use only the first part of John 3:16, "For God so loved the world that He gave", and stopped there. His message was on the fact that God is a giver. Fine. Partial verse. Good theology. As for paraphrasing, I think that your post makes my point. The purpose of paraphrasing is to clarify a point, or to make it more succinct. Jesus giving the two commandments is basically a paraphrase of the entire book of the law.
In the end, I beleive that the reason why Warren is often the subject of extreme critiscm is simply because many christians believe that we should resist ANY form of success. this attitude of christian failure as somehow being the same as piety. piety to me is seeing warren sell 25 million copies of a book, and then become a reverse tither. (that's giving away 90% of your income). I may not agree with everything that he preaches, but Christ is still the center of who he is, and what he preaches. i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the meantime.
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My God can beat up your god
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 8/23/2008 7:36:20 PM
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jayvance
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quote:
In the end, I beleive that the reason why Warren is often the subject of extreme critiscm is simply because many christians believe that we should resist ANY form of success. this attitude of christian failure as somehow being the same as piety. piety to me is seeing warren sell 25 million copies of a book, and then become a reverse tither. (that's giving away 90% of your income). I may not agree with everything that he preaches, but Christ is still the center of who he is, and what he preaches. i'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in the meantime.
Well said.
Jay
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/10/2008 1:28:07 PM
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rofaith
Posts: 60
Joined: 1/17/2008
From: rofaith, a believer
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As a member of Saddleback I can attest to a couple of things. First, Rick has a passion to preach the undiluted gospel to the lost. As such, Saddleback ministers to what it calls "seekers" which are much different than the Osteen or Willow Creek seekers.... So, during worship, it's all about preaching the gospel topically rather than verse by verse to those kinds of people. It attracts a large number of people because they are not treated to the "churchianity" or "christianese" that is in some churches today which revolves not around content, but the attitude and culture of the Christian community in those churches. Doesn't mean that verse by verse is wrong or that the Christian culture so to speak is wrong, it just is what it is. So @ Saddleback, content is preached through topics that people deal with everyday which inevitably ends up with the clincher of receiving Christ and repentance. Biblical teaching in the verse by verse sense takes place at other venues @ Saddleback usually revolving around OT History, Prophecy and numerous small group curriculums also do the same. Intense bible study, discussion and repentance takes place @ Celebrate Recovery(Christ centered 8 principle program that loosely follows the 12 step program except, as noted, biblically and Christ centered)
I have found PDL is not for the faint of heart as some have intimated here in this forum. There are a lot of "bible studiers" out there which is good intellectually and spiritually, especially in that it is mandated in the Word of God. But there are not a lot of "Doers of the Word" which is where PDL also goes. So, the idea is to not just preach it, but do it as well.... in other words, making a difference. If you read PDL in this way, it seeks to preach the gospel and make a difference in a person's life and attitudes such that they start giving to others in Christ's name.
Don't worry, I have some differences with Rick, but hey, that's what makes Christian love... well love. The ability to chose to love by faith rather than rely on some intellectual or emotional feeling. We are first and foremost saved by Christ and then brothers in Christ. But, in general he's right on IMHO. We can quibble about jot and tittle in the bible wrt Rick, but in the end, we end up besmirching a brother in Christ who is near and dear to God's heart, even as we are. This ends up dividing the body of Christ because rash statements of Rick being New Age, Gospel-lite etc pop up which divides rather than unites.
We are not all meant to be the same or to preach the gospel the same. Otherwise, we'd be a bunch of straight-jacketed preachers.... IMHO, God wants His gospel preached in diverse ways, with the core being Christ Crucified, Christ Resurrected, Salvation by Grace, repentance, gratefulness for God's mercy etc.... all of which are @ Saddleback...
As a final note, Rick always encourages members to attend and even join other churches if they feel that they are being fed more to what God wants for them at those venues.
that's it... God bless you and over and out....rofaith
< Message edited by rofaith -- 10/10/2008 1:56:30 PM >
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/17/2008 10:16:34 AM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
i am blaming RW for writing a book using questionable paraphrased versions, which coupled with lazy pastors annd young sheep spells disastor....how old are you?
i am old enough to know the deception PDL brings into the life of young believers.
I'm 56 and English is my first language, I've actually read all of PDL (not just reviews or spot reading) and there is no deception in PDL.
Now you.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/19/2008 9:40:49 PM
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prophet
Posts: 566
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
i am blaming RW for writing a book using questionable paraphrased versions, which coupled with lazy pastors annd young sheep spells disastor....how old are you?
i am old enough to know the deception PDL brings into the life of young believers.
I'm 56 and English is my first language, I've actually read all of PDL (not just reviews or spot reading) and there is no deception in PDL.
Now you.
Sorry was my post directed at you?
Besides that post is over two months old and......
You sir, are becoming a pest......
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Create in me a Clean Heart, O Lord.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 1:00:32 AM
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GodsMusic
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
Sorry was my post directed at you?
Besides that post is over two months old and......
You sir, are becoming a pest......
That was funny. And I agree, PDL is a joke.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 8:58:10 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: prophet
i am blaming RW for writing a book using questionable paraphrased versions, which coupled with lazy pastors annd young sheep spells disastor....how old are you?
i am old enough to know the deception PDL brings into the life of young believers.
I'm 56 and English is my first language, I've actually read all of PDL (not just reviews or spot reading) and there is no deception in PDL.
Now you.
Sorry was my post directed at you?
Besides that post is over two months old and......
You sir, are becoming a pest......
Why are you offended that, on a public forum, I took umbrage with a reply to a comment you made in a thread in which I've participated in since the very first page - no, not just the first page but as the very first to answer????????
If you wish not to have anyone respond to your posts, you could start a blog without permitting responses. Or keep a journal. But any remark on a forum, whether foolish or erudite, is open to challenge.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 12:54:11 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Neeva_Candidaquote:
Answering a question with a question and avoiding it is all I need to know. Jesus frequently answered questions with questions. So isn't that the normal Jewish way to answer?
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RE: PDL Model Creates False Converts - 10/20/2008 12:57:39 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4092
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: prophetquote:
shallow converts they may be, but hell is a little less empty due to his actions Just because someone presents 'Christ'?
Do you agree with the gospel of the Mormons? At least the gospel is a version of the biblical one. THe Jesus of the mormon religion is a falsity, considered to once be human until he attained godhood. Brother of the devil. Gives his faithful each their own planet and then their own universe where they rule as god and start the cycle all over again.
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 1:58:52 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
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quote:
....I've actually read all of PDL (not just reviews or spot reading) and there is no deception in PDL.
Now you.
Here’s one deception:
"The best style of worship is the one that most authentically represents your love for God, based on the background and personality God gave you" (p. 102).
By way of comparison, it is written:
John 4:23
23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
(KJV)
Ps 147:11
11 The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy.
(KJV)
Ps 32:2
2 Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
(KJV)
Ps 51:6
6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
(KJV)
Warren claims worship flows from “background and personality”. God’s Word says something completely different.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: PDL is a GREAT tool for educating Novice Christians! - 10/20/2008 2:04:45 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
By way of comparison, it is written...
Exactly. There is no contradiction, just your interpretation.
Do you really think you should worship God based on MY background and personality or should you worship Him based on someone else?
When you have prejudged something incorrectly, you cannot see the truth even when you attempt to trash a minister's intention.
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