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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/21/2008 9:37:58 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
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quote:
If somebody "dismissed" the scripture, please show me where that happened. I don't think anyone dismissed any part of the Bible. We are merely trying to read it in context.
It was 'dismissed' because some felt that since it was addressed to scribes, pharisees, or religious people, it didn't apply to us. Therefore an assumption has been made that ALL are believers. We can't make that assumption. At least I'm not going to. Many are deceived.
Context is important but if we don't listen to and take heed of these words of Jesus, we may be missing something we need to hear. For example, when Jesus speaks to promiscuous women do you not have to listen and heed what he says if you were never promiscuous? or what about when He's speaking to the rich young ruler? or widows? what about the woman who poured the vial of oil on Jesus? having never done that, do we not hear what is being said?
I am not telling you which words of Jesus He is speaking directly to you. But I am not going to assume that just because He was talking to a certain group of people that I don't need to listen. KWIM?
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/22/2008 8:01:53 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1982
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I don't think it can be said that the scripture is being dismissed, it is the context that the scripture is used that is dismissed. That would be a fair statement.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/22/2008 11:01:51 AM
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stampinlady
Posts: 1542
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If a believer "could" keep someone from the Kingdom couldn't that someone then use it as an excuse when they don't believe and stand before God?
Liveloved I think I get what you are saying, but because God brings people to Him there's no way we can keep people out.
_____________________________
Deb
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/22/2008 12:30:02 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
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quote:
If a believer "could" keep someone from the Kingdom couldn't that someone then use it as an excuse when they don't believe and stand before God?
Liveloved I think I get what you are saying, but because God brings people to Him there's no way we can keep people out.
Then we need to ask, why did Jesus say these men/people were shutting people out of the kingdom? What were they doing that had such an effect on others? powerful enough to shut them out of the kingdom?
I don't want us to put ourselves in the place of God. But who is doing that? The one who thinks they know what a scripture is saying? Or the one who ponders it, listens, desires to learn and doesn't assume they know or that it doesn't apply to them?
When I hear the word 'hypocrite', for example, I don't exclude myself. I listen up all the more because I know my heart is deceitful and there are ways I am living hypocritically. Was it Spurgeon who said that when someone paints a picture of him, all it needs is a little more black paint because they don't see all the evil that's in him? (That's my rough remembrance but the image is the same.) That's what living honestly and truthfully is all about---wanting to see ourselves, wanting to know how and what we are doing that is displeasing to the One we love. And knowing that there is evil within. Yes, I am the righteousness of God through Christ but He's doing a sanctifying work in me as well.
So I listen. And I know you do too. So bless you, Deb.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/23/2008 9:00:36 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day. And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
I am late to the party...but I do have a few thoughts...
Matt 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
These were Jesus words to the legalists of His day, and they are a warning to the legalists of today. As are all the harsh words and warnings that Jesus spoke. For His only words of condemnation were for those who professed to be what only He was and is...sinless perfection.
It is no different today. There are those who pretend to be perfect, while judging and condemning all others who they feel do not measure up to their own state of perfection. Jesus calls these pretenders..."sons of hell" [Matthew 23:15].
We hinder, not help, when we place others back under the Law...back under the endless and profitless curse of self effort [Galatians 3:3].
Religion is mans attempt to make himself acceptable to God; Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/23/2008 5:05:30 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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quote:
I am late to the party...but I do have a few thoughts...
Matt 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
These were Jesus words to the legalists of His day, and they are a warning to the legalists of today. As are all the harsh words and warnings that Jesus spoke. For His only words of condemnation were for those who professed to be what only He was and is...sinless perfection.
It is no different today. There are those who pretend to be perfect, while judging and condemning all others who they feel do not measure up to their own state of perfection. Jesus calls these pretenders..."sons of hell" [Matthew 23:15].
We hinder, not help, when we place others back under the Law...back under the endless and profitless curse of self effort [Galatians 3:3].
Religion is mans attempt to make himself acceptable to God; Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.
You were invited. Glad you showed up. . . finally. 
These words are for self examination not the examination or judgment of others, That is why I listen to each word Jesus speaks and apply it to my heart and my life. And, yes, I see my failure to DO but I also receive the needed encouragement to BELIEVE that He (Jesus) is doing all for me. This self examination is not to lead to works but repentance and a yielding to the Spirit that is so needful.
And, no, I do not want my life to be one who turns anyone away from my beloved Savior. Only by grace have I entered and that is what I have to tell others. But faith without works is dead. So His grace leads me on to DO and LIVE as He does and lives in and through me. Bless you, URF! Glad you joined the party. There's always room for one more.  LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/24/2008 10:24:21 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
I am late to the party...but I do have a few thoughts...
Matt 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to."
These were Jesus words to the legalists of His day, and they are a warning to the legalists of today. As are all the harsh words and warnings that Jesus spoke. For His only words of condemnation were for those who professed to be what only He was and is...sinless perfection.
It is no different today. There are those who pretend to be perfect, while judging and condemning all others who they feel do not measure up to their own state of perfection. Jesus calls these pretenders..."sons of hell" [Matthew 23:15].
We hinder, not help, when we place others back under the Law...back under the endless and profitless curse of self effort [Galatians 3:3].
Religion is mans attempt to make himself acceptable to God; Christianity is God making man acceptable to Himself.
You were invited. Glad you showed up. . . finally.
These words are for self examination not the examination or judgment of others, That is why I listen to each word Jesus speaks and apply it to my heart and my life. And, yes, I see my failure to DO but I also receive the needed encouragement to BELIEVE that He (Jesus) is doing all for me. This self examination is not to lead to works but repentance and a yielding to the Spirit that is so needful.
And, no, I do not want my life to be one who turns anyone away from my beloved Savior. Only by grace have I entered and that is what I have to tell others. But faith without works is dead. So His grace leads me on to DO and LIVE as He does and lives in and through me. Bless you, URF! Glad you joined the party. There's always room for one more. LL
I am a bit confused by this self examination thing. If we know that no good thing lives in us, that is, in our sinful nature [Romans 7:18], what possible good could come from examining it????
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/24/2008 9:02:48 PM
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justasheep
Posts: 44
Joined: 5/13/2008
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quote:
I am a bit confused by this self examination thing. If we know that no good thing lives in us, that is, in our sinful nature [Romans 7:18], what possible good could come from examining it????
Self examination is exorted in various passages and is natural for the true believer. The believer begins to know God and himself in a way that the unbeliever can never know. It is particularly clear in 2 Cor. 13:5 and I believe particularly helpful for the OP.
5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!
It's very clear that Paul was calling the Corinthian believers to test themselves in the faith. Maybe an appropriate place for the believer would be to study James. I'm not saying to completely take our eyes off of Christ. For in our examination and confession we must have faith in the finished work of Christ, which of course is the only thing that will justify us in the end. But the parables that describe those who thought they knew Jesus but didn't are a warning to all. As you well know there will be those on the last day who will say Lord, Lord.... Jesus will say to them depart for He never knew them.
_____________________________
Life is wasted if we do not grasp the glory of the cross, cheerish it for the treasure that it is, and cleave to it as the highest price of every pleasure and the deepest comfort of every pain.
John Piper
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/24/2008 10:14:42 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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quote:
I am a bit confused by this self examination thing. If we know that no good thing lives in us, that is, in our sinful nature [Romans 7:18], what possible good could come from examining it????
I used the phrase 'self examination' to distinquish it from examining and judging others but it truly is a work of the Holy Spirit. He is the searchlight or as the KJV says the 'candle' within that searches us. He desires truth in the innermost being (Ps 51:6). He desires my being truthful about me. . . and how far my ways are from His. But the verse continues "and in the hidden part Thou wilt make me know wisdom." And that wisdom is Jesus. So He reveals my sin to me, areas of flesh that are still not dead, so that I can repent. And as I repent I know more of Wisdom, Jesus, and love Him more for all that He has done for me.
The 'good' is not that I improve myself. The 'good' is that I see again and again how wonderful Jesus is and ALL He has done for me. And I love Him more and more. . . not as He deserves but more.
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/25/2008 12:44:03 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 1220
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
You shut off the kingdom of heaven
from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day. And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
I read my way through this and the reader is asked to discern her or his own actions for ways in which she or he is doing something they'd rather not be doing. How might I be doing a bad thing, and in what ways might I be going about doing it? That clashes with pursuing excellence by taking captive one's thought life- Phillipians 4:8-ing things. I don't know the skills involved in focusing on what is bad in the Bible, then holding my life up to it, and seeing if I'm a sinner in that area or not, and if so, ridding myself of those bad habits, repenting for any sin happening because of it whether it has or hasn't, and then feeling relieved to have worked that out. I am not saying that's what you are about doing, either, Liveloved. I just cringe at the thought of what looks like going after my own self-esteem and self-worth by considering your course of action, and for this discussion.
I think it would be a much better pursuit if prayer took place, where I prayed for wisdom in how to be a better witness to Christ's love for His creation. I would also pray for some opportunity to really get to know people well, and then I'd pray that hearing a testimony I shared with someone be a life-changing experience for someone, or at least get them asking questions and wanting to learn more themselves. This would place your desire into things, and instead of not wanting to do the bad, you ARE wanting to do the good. The good will spell out the bad, right? Or triumph over it? You take shutting off the kingdom of heaven and sharing with someone else your joy in knowing Jesus and hold them side by side, and those two are going to be fighting against each other so hard your arms are straining not to be pulled out of their sockets. I'm saying there's no way that anyone is likely to be accomplishing both building up and shutting off. And if your heart is on fire for building up, there's not going to be any room there for anything against that, right?
I'm sorry, I just don't know the ways in how I might be doing something wrong. I don't even know many of the ways I might be doing something right. This reminds me of the do-be-do-be-do passage Paul wrote about. The good that he knows to be good he does not do, and the bad which he knows to be bad he finds himself doing instead. Since there's no laws against the fruit of the Spirit, those are all good to work into life's activities. Those and thinking of excellence are usually on my to-do list.
Blessings on your study- I hope this helps some.
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/25/2008 9:41:44 AM
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URForgiven
Posts: 1120
Joined: 3/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I used the phrase 'self examination' to distinquish it from examining and judging others but it truly is a work of the Holy Spirit. He is the searchlight or as the KJV says the 'candle' within that searches us. He desires truth in the innermost being (Ps 51:6).
Thank you, this is very good and very true. But if it is the Holy Spirits work, what is there for us to do? Do we need to nudge Him along? Does He reveal, or does He lead? Will we even be aware that He is working, except perhaps as we see the change in our lives that He has caused from within?
quote:
He desires my being truthful about me. . . and how far my ways are from His. But the verse continues "and in the hidden part Thou wilt make me know wisdom." And that wisdom is Jesus.
I believe it is Jesus being spoken of. But isn't this what happens to us at regeneration? We receive the Spirit of God, who is the Spirit of truth and wisdom? It continues on...
Psalm 51:7
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean [ceremonially]; wash me, and I shall [in reality] be whiter than snow.
Is this not speaking of our purification, the washing away of our sins through the shed blood of Christ on the cross? I do not see sins being revealed to us, I see us being made white as snow, and I see wisdom and truth being imparted to us.
quote:
So He reveals my sin to me, areas of flesh that are still not dead, so that I can repent. And as I repent I know more of Wisdom, Jesus, and love Him more for all that He has done for me. The 'good' is not that I improve myself. The 'good' is that I see again and again how wonderful Jesus is and ALL He has done for me. And I love Him more and more. . . not as He deserves but more.
How does this line up with Colossians 3:2-4...
"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."
How can we set our minds on things above, if our minds are set on ourselves? How do we focus on Jesus, if we are focused on ourselves?
Who we now are is hidden in Christ. Who we were, died on that cross with Him 2000 years ago. If we want to know ourselves better, it would seem we would need to examine and know Jesus more. From Gods point of view what we were is already dead, we now need to consider ourselves dead to it also.
How does God revealing our sins to us line up with Hebrews 8:12?...
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more"
The sin issue from Gods point of view has already been settled. The Holy Spirit neither convicts nor condemns the Children of God...He leads us to the truth about who we are in Christ. And when we are lax, He lead us back to the truth about who we are in Christ.
Our identity, as Christians, is not based on anything we do, it is based on who we now are in Christ, and who we now are is forgiven, blameless and completely righteous in the sight of God. Not because of anything we can or have done, but because of what Jesus Christ has done on our behalf.
God remembers our sins no more, and because He does not we may approach God with freedom and confidence [Eph 3:12].
Anyway...that's the way the cookie crumbles for me. 
Peace
_____________________________
"Are you so foolish? After beginning with the Spirit,
are you now trying to attain your goal by human effort?" Galatians 3:3
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/25/2008 5:33:40 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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quote:
I read my way through this and the reader is asked to discern her or his own actions for ways in which she or he is doing something they'd rather not be doing. How might I be doing a bad thing, and in what ways might I be going about doing it? That clashes with pursuing excellence by taking captive one's thought life- Phillipians 4:8-ing things. I don't know the skills involved in focusing on what is bad in the Bible, then holding my life up to it, and seeing if I'm a sinner in that area or not, and if so, ridding myself of those bad habits, repenting for any sin happening because of it whether it has or hasn't, and then feeling relieved to have worked that out. I am not saying that's what you are about doing, either, Liveloved. I just cringe at the thought of what looks like going after my own self-esteem and self-worth by considering your course of action, and for this discussion.
Hey, thank you, OneJohn410, for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your entering into my thoughtlife. And, you see, I see this very much in line with taking thoughts captive. . . as I fellowship with the Lord and am in His word, He speaks to me about my life, the ways in which I am living. So, for example, on this day, I recalled a conversation that I had with a man while I was working out at the gym. He is not a believer. And the Lord showed me that that conversation was one that showed my worldly attitude in regard to a business dealing. Will that conversation prevent this man from entering the kingdom? I doubt it. But I certainly did not show him the peaceful trust and security of a life lived in the confident love of Jesus, KWIM? And that is certainly NOT how I want to be. So I confess my unbelief, because that is truly what it is. And I ask Jesus to help me believe MORE. And I'm so thankful for this opportunity to SEE myself and seek more of Jesus and His life and I wanted to share this with others by stimulating a conversation around this topic.
I think it would be a much better pursuit if prayer took place, where I prayed for wisdom in how to be a better witness to Christ's love for His creation. I would also pray for some opportunity to really get to know people well, and then I'd pray that hearing a testimony I shared with someone be a life-changing experience for someone, or at least get them asking questions and wanting to learn more themselves. This would place your desire into things, and instead of not wanting to do the bad, you ARE wanting to do the good. The good will spell out the bad, right? Or triumph over it? You take shutting off the kingdom of heaven and sharing with someone else your joy in knowing Jesus and hold them side by side, and those two are going to be fighting against each other so hard your arms are straining not to be pulled out of their sockets. I'm saying there's no way that anyone is likely to be accomplishing both building up and shutting off. And if your heart is on fire for building up, there's not going to be any room there for anything against that, right?
Again, I hear what you are saying. They are two different conversations and two different audiences. I was seeking a conversation with mature believers who desire to grow in godliness. I thought this forum was the appropriate place (whereas the general faith would not). Am I misunderstanding this? And you seem to be concluding that building up does not include this kind of discussion. Edification means to straighten and straightening is often quite painful. Stimulate means to poke or prod. These are both types of behavior that believers are to engage others in so that we grow up and live and do as Christ would have us. True, the kinds of things you discuss with babes are different than those you discuss with the mature. The Apostle Paul said he could not speak to the Corinthian church as to spiritual men because they were not spiritual men; they were carnal, fleshly men who could not understand spiritual things. Is that what you are saying?
I'm sorry, I just don't know the ways in how I might be doing something wrong. I don't even know many of the ways I might be doing something right. This reminds me of the do-be-do-be-do passage Paul wrote about. The good that he knows to be good he does not do, and the bad which he knows to be bad he finds himself doing instead. Since there's no laws against the fruit of the Spirit, those are all good to work into life's activities. Those and thinking of excellence are usually on my to-do list.
It seems you think this type of thoughtful reflection on the teachings of Christ to be a wrong use of time. I don't understand this. God's law is my meditation day and night. I'm continually thinking about Jesus and what He says and what that means for me. HE is my life. And He speaks to me day in and day out. I live in His love. But living in His love does not mean He doesn't correct me. It means He corrects me all the more. He loves me. And I want His correction. So help me understand what you are saying because I don't think I am.
Blessings on your study- I hope this helps some.
OneJohn410
Thanks for your blessings. I do appreciate all you have said and seek to truly understand. The Lord speaks to me through others and I want to be listening and heeding. Bless you back. LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/25/2008 6:05:03 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
I used the phrase 'self examination' to distinquish it from examining and judging others but it truly is a work of the Holy Spirit. He is the searchlight or as the KJV says the 'candle' within that searches us. He desires truth in the innermost being (Ps 51:6).
Thank you, this is very good and very true. But if it is the Holy Spirits work, what is there for us to do? Do we need to nudge Him along? Does He reveal, or does He lead? Will we even be aware that He is working, except perhaps as we see the change in our lives that He has caused from within?
quote:
He desires my being truthful about me. . . and how far my ways are from His. But the verse continues "and in the hidden part Thou wilt make me know wisdom." And that wisdom is Jesus.
I believe it is Jesus being spoken of. But isn't this what happens to us at regeneration? We receive the Spirit of God, who is the Spirit of truth and wisdom? It continues on...
Psalm 51:7
Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean [ceremonially]; wash me, and I shall [in reality] be whiter than snow.
Is this not speaking of our purification, the washing away of our sins through the shed blood of Christ on the cross? I do not see sins being revealed to us, I see us being made white as snow, and I see wisdom and truth being imparted to us.
I have been made white as snow but the power that saves is also the power that is sanctifying me. And that is part of the 'making me know wisdom' as I fellowship with Jesus.
quote:
So He reveals my sin to me, areas of flesh that are still not dead, so that I can repent. And as I repent I know more of Wisdom, Jesus, and love Him more for all that He has done for me. The 'good' is not that I improve myself. The 'good' is that I see again and again how wonderful Jesus is and ALL He has done for me. And I love Him more and more. . . not as He deserves but more.
How does this line up with Colossians 3:2-4...
"Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. When Christ, who is your life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory."
How can we set our minds on things above, if our minds are set on ourselves? How do we focus on Jesus, if we are focused on ourselves?
Who we now are is hidden in Christ. Who we were, died on that cross with Him 2000 years ago. If we want to know ourselves better, it would seem we would need to examine and know Jesus more. From Gods point of view what we were is already dead, we now need to consider ourselves dead to it also.
How does God revealing our sins to us line up with Hebrews 8:12?...
"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more"
The sin issue from Gods point of view has already been settled. The Holy Spirit neither convicts nor condemns the Children of God...He leads us to the truth about who we are in Christ. And when we are lax, He lead us back to the truth about who we are in Christ.
Our identity, as Christians, is not based on anything we do, it is based on who we now are in Christ, and who we now are is forgiven, blameless and completely righteous in the sight of God. Not because of anything we can or have done, but because of what Jesus Christ has done on our behalf.
God remembers our sins no more, and because He does not we may approach God with freedom and confidence [Eph 3:12].
Anyway...that's the way the cookie crumbles for me.
He made Him Who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. IICor 5:21 This I believe. I am the righteousness of God. I know it. And it is on this basis that I live loved. Loved and ever thankful for His goodness to me.
But as a child of the King, I live under my Father's rule and His rule includes correction. And His correction is love. And it is through repentance only that I make my way back to Him.
So I'm not sure exactly how our cookies crumble differently. But I do know it's the same Cookie and that's all that really matters. quote:
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/26/2008 6:58:40 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1258
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Live, you come up with such convicting threads!! Ouchey!!! Yes, we can keep others from entering into the kingdom by not walking in love as Jesus commanded us. Folks see us acting badly and think, They're no different from me, so what's the big deal? Yes, we are on stage for everyone to see. We can turn others from God when we follow after what we want, not what God wants. ouchey!!! Good thread, kiddo!!! :)
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day. And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/26/2008 7:53:42 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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quote:
Live, you come up with such convicting threads!! Ouchey!!! Yes, we can keep others from entering into the kingdom by not walking in love as Jesus commanded us. Folks see us acting badly and think, They're no different from me, so what's the big deal? Yes, we are on stage for everyone to see. We can turn others from God when we follow after what we want, not what God wants. ouchey!!! Good thread, kiddo!!! :)
Bless you, Dancre. Ouchey is why many have a problem with me but many had a problem with Jesus and Paul so I'm in good company. I challenge others as the Lord challenges me to go deeper, live more thoughtfully, and love Him more. Deep calls to deep. So I put out His calls and some appreciate it and others are uncomfortable and strike. He shows me my wretched flesh so that I can repent and rejoice in Him. It is a blessed place to live. Blessings to you as you seek to know Him more, LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/26/2008 8:16:08 PM
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Dancre
Posts: 1258
Joined: 4/12/2005
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ORIGINAL: Liveloved
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Live, you come up with such convicting threads!! Ouchey!!! Yes, we can keep others from entering into the kingdom by not walking in love as Jesus commanded us. Folks see us acting badly and think, They're no different from me, so what's the big deal? Yes, we are on stage for everyone to see. We can turn others from God when we follow after what we want, not what God wants. ouchey!!! Good thread, kiddo!!! :)
Bless you, Dancre. Ouchey is why many have a problem with me but many had a problem with Jesus and Paul so I'm in good company. I challenge others as the Lord challenges me to go deeper, live more thoughtfully, and love Him more. Deep calls to deep. So I put out His calls and some appreciate it and others are uncomfortable and strike. He shows me my wretched flesh so that I can repent and rejoice in Him. It is a blessed place to live. Blessings to you as you seek to know Him more, LL
I think folks might be misunderstanding Live's post. This is what he/she is trying to say. Say for instance, Sandy works at Company A. She has all the bible verses posted to her computer, has the Jesus Keyring, reads her bible at lunch and has a Jesus bumper sticker on her car. She runs around saying all the Christian phrases, like Praise the Lord, etc. BUT she also thinks she's better than Julie who is living with her boyfriend and she lets Julie know she thinks she's better than Julie. Sometimes calls her a sinner, gossips about her, looks down on her, judges her, etc. (I actually work with people like Sandy.  ) Julie resents Sandy for her nasty behavior and thinks, If that's Christianity, then I don't want it. (this is what Live means by keeping folks from the Kingdom of God.) I also work with a girl like Julie who believes God is a goddess and she's into all kinds of weird new age funky stuff. She puts down Christianity b/c of folks like Sandy. If that's what Christianity is, then I don't want it. What Live is trying to say is are we like Sandy, where we look down on those lost in sin, judge them, gossip about them? Or are we like Jesus who saw Julie as a someone lost in sin and walk in love with her and don't look down on her, gossip about her, etc but shared God's love with her. Which one are you? Sandy or Jesus? It is a very convicting thread. Again, we are on stage. What we doing on that stage? Showing Jesus as He is or being judgemental, gossipey, Self-righteous, look at me, I'm so much better than anyone else here? Again, ouchey!!!
kim
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/26/2008 9:29:55 PM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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Kim, Thanks for the great descriptives. And I'm a she. LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/27/2008 1:08:48 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 1220
Joined: 6/1/2008
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ORIGINAL: Liveloved
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I read my way through this and the reader is asked to discern her or his own actions for ways in which she or he is doing something they'd rather not be doing. How might I be doing a bad thing, and in what ways might I be going about doing it? That clashes with pursuing excellence by taking captive one's thought life- Phillipians 4:8-ing things. I don't know the skills involved in focusing on what is bad in the Bible, then holding my life up to it, and seeing if I'm a sinner in that area or not, and if so, ridding myself of those bad habits, repenting for any sin happening because of it whether it has or hasn't, and then feeling relieved to have worked that out. I am not saying that's what you are about doing, either, Liveloved. I just cringe at the thought of what looks like going after my own self-esteem and self-worth by considering your course of action, and for this discussion.
Hey, thank you, OneJohn410, for your thoughtful response. I appreciate your entering into my thoughtlife. And, you see, I see this very much in line with taking thoughts captive. . . as I fellowship with the Lord and am in His word, He speaks to me about my life, the ways in which I am living. So, for example, on this day, I recalled a conversation that I had with a man while I was working out at the gym. He is not a believer. And the Lord showed me that that conversation was one that showed my worldly attitude in regard to a business dealing. Will that conversation prevent this man from entering the kingdom? I doubt it. But I certainly did not show him the peaceful trust and security of a life lived in the confident love of Jesus, KWIM? And that is certainly NOT how I want to be. So I confess my unbelief, because that is truly what it is. And I ask Jesus to help me believe MORE. And I'm so thankful for this opportunity to SEE myself and seek more of Jesus and His life and I wanted to share this with others by stimulating a conversation around this topic.
I think it would be a much better pursuit if prayer took place, where I prayed for wisdom in how to be a better witness to Christ's love for His creation. I would also pray for some opportunity to really get to know people well, and then I'd pray that hearing a testimony I shared with someone be a life-changing experience for someone, or at least get them asking questions and wanting to learn more themselves. This would place your desire into things, and instead of not wanting to do the bad, you ARE wanting to do the good. The good will spell out the bad, right? Or triumph over it? You take shutting off the kingdom of heaven and sharing with someone else your joy in knowing Jesus and hold them side by side, and those two are going to be fighting against each other so hard your arms are straining not to be pulled out of their sockets. I'm saying there's no way that anyone is likely to be accomplishing both building up and shutting off. And if your heart is on fire for building up, there's not going to be any room there for anything against that, right?
Again, I hear what you are saying. They are two different conversations and two different audiences. I was seeking a conversation with mature believers who desire to grow in godliness. I thought this forum was the appropriate place (whereas the general faith would not). Am I misunderstanding this? And you seem to be concluding that building up does not include this kind of discussion. Edification means to straighten and straightening is often quite painful. Stimulate means to poke or prod. These are both types of behavior that believers are to engage others in so that we grow up and live and do as Christ would have us. True, the kinds of things you discuss with babes are different than those you discuss with the mature. The Apostle Paul said he could not speak to the Corinthian church as to spiritual men because they were not spiritual men; they were carnal, fleshly men who could not understand spiritual things. Is that what you are saying?
I'm sorry, I just don't know the ways in how I might be doing something wrong. I don't even know many of the ways I might be doing something right. This reminds me of the do-be-do-be-do passage Paul wrote about. The good that he knows to be good he does not do, and the bad which he knows to be bad he finds himself doing instead. Since there's no laws against the fruit of the Spirit, those are all good to work into life's activities. Those and thinking of excellence are usually on my to-do list.
It seems you think this type of thoughtful reflection on the teachings of Christ to be a wrong use of time. I don't understand this. God's law is my meditation day and night. I'm continually thinking about Jesus and what He says and what that means for me. HE is my life. And He speaks to me day in and day out. I live in His love. But living in His love does not mean He doesn't correct me. It means He corrects me all the more. He loves me. And I want His correction. So help me understand what you are saying because I don't think I am.
Blessings on your study- I hope this helps some.
OneJohn410
Thanks for your blessings. I do appreciate all you have said and seek to truly understand. The Lord speaks to me through others and I want to be listening and heeding. Bless you back. LL
Hi LL,
I'm going to try to answer your questions about my initial thinking was to your post, and hopefully answer your questions at the same time.
Ok, you've already had a discussion of faith with this guy at the gym, and you realize that you are not bringing testimony of your faith into every discussion you have with people, at least with this guy.
When you say you confess your unbelief, for that is what it is... if there is any sort of ratio of how often God, Jesus, or something of Phillipians 4:8 is to be mentioned per sentences without, then early Sunday school teachings overlooked teaching it to me growing up. You went from a casual conversation at a gym to conveying your faith in a non-Biblical context and conversation, to making a personal statement you want to be in conversation more talking up your faith to others. You put that as living a way you didn't want to, and thought it something needing confession for, as it is unbelief.
Is there a negative-leaning mindset in this relentless pursuit to be more for God? This is poor, but consider the dental hygenist, who loves her or his work. They make you feel great while they poke around in your mouth, and pick, and floss and clean your teeth. They try to make you feel comfortable while seeing what's going on in your mouth. Your OP for me was to the tune of let's take this bad action, and how have you possibly been accomplishing this in your life, and in what ways do you find you are being a very naughty Christian.
With your mindset being what it is, to be a stronger witness of God's love, which has transformed your life, someone asked if you are still trying to hold on to the old former life. Can you accomplish the same thing by not focusing on warnings and negatives and the bad of the Bible, but with a mindset to be a better testimony?
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/27/2008 3:49:56 AM
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Liveloved
Posts: 1876
Status: offline
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Hi LL,
I'm going to try to answer your questions about my initial thinking was to your post, and hopefully answer your questions at the same time.
Ok, you've already had a discussion of faith with this guy at the gym, and you realize that you are not bringing testimony of your faith into every discussion you have with people, at least with this guy.
When you say you confess your unbelief, for that is what it is... if there is any sort of ratio of how often God, Jesus, or something of Phillipians 4:8 is to be mentioned per sentences without, then early Sunday school teachings overlooked teaching it to me growing up. You went from a casual conversation at a gym to conveying your faith in a non-Biblical context and conversation, to making a personal statement you want to be in conversation more talking up your faith to others. You put that as living a way you didn't want to, and thought it something needing confession for, as it is unbelief.
Is there a negative-leaning mindset in this relentless pursuit to be more for God? This is poor, but consider the dental hygenist, who loves her or his work. They make you feel great while they poke around in your mouth, and pick, and floss and clean your teeth. They try to make you feel comfortable while seeing what's going on in your mouth. Your OP for me was to the tune of let's take this bad action, and how have you possibly been accomplishing this in your life, and in what ways do you find you are being a very naughty Christian.
With your mindset being what it is, to be a stronger witness of God's love, which has transformed your life, someone asked if you are still trying to hold on to the old former life. Can you accomplish the same thing by not focusing on warnings and negatives and the bad of the Bible, but with a mindset to be a better testimony?
I will try to answer your questions. First, I would not say that I am in a 'relentless pursuit to be more for God'. There is no drivenness about our relationship. I love the Lord but I do not have to be anything---He is my ALL. The 'negative-leaning mindset' is an interesting description and one I won't immediately reject. . . but I'm not sure that what you think you are observing is what is (kwim?). I live in continual repentance. It is not that I am focused on me. I am focused on Christ. But He shows me me. And that lead to repentance. I am not as He is. But I am His workmanship and He is able and He will accomplish all for me. So that is not a negative mindset in my way of thinking at all. It is absolutely the most hopeful and positive reality one can live in and it is my reality.
Your second question is an important one. You refer to 'warnings, the negatives, and the bad of the Bible'. Psalm 19 says, "The law of the Lord, is perfect, restoring the soul; the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple. The precepts of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart; the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes. The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring forever; the judgments of the Lord are true; they are righteous altogether. They are more desirable than gold, yes, than much fine gold; sweeter also than honey and the drippings of the honeycomb. Moreover, by them Thy servant is warned; in keeping them there is great reward. Who can discern his errors? Acquit me of hidden faults. Also keep back thy servant from presumptuous sins; let them not rule over me; then I shall be blameless, and I shall be acquitted of great transgression. Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart be acceptable in Thy sight, O Lord, my rock and my Redeemer.
It begins with what God says, His word. And what is His word? It is more desirable than gold and sweeter than honey. In fact, in another psalm the Lord says He will feed us with the finest of the wheat and with honey from the rock I will satisfy you. That is Jesus but much of Jesus comes to us through His word. So I begin with His word and with the person of Jesus.
And He speaks to me. His word is all of those things the psalm I quoted above is and accomplishes just what He says: restores my soul, making me wise, rejoices my heart, enlightens my eyes and leads me in righteousness. All of those things are for my good---but most of them are for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteousness. You could view all of those things as negative I guess. Restorative work is corrective. Reproof and correction, making one wise, opening one's eyes. . . all of these could be viewed as you say 'negative, filled with warning or the bad things of the Bible'. Yet God says this is what His word is all about. That the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.
I enjoy sharing with others what the Lord is teaching me. And I enjoy hearing how He is leading them as well. It is His word. If you think it is negative or bad or that the warnings are forming a negative mindset, I don't see it that way at all. Perhaps your view is the negative one?
In general it is the challenging things that I share. Isn't much of scripture the same? The writings of the NT are filled with warnings, corrections, etc. Would you tell Jesus or Paul or Peter that they had a negative mindset and that perhaps they should have focused on something more positive? Please don't take my questions or thoughts except as they are intended. I'm seeking to understand---
Anyway, that's probably enough for now. Thanks for entering into this with me. LL
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RE: You shut off the kingdom of heaven - 8/28/2008 2:37:31 AM
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OneJohn410
Posts: 1220
Joined: 6/1/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
You shut off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
These were Jesus' words to some of the religious people of His day. And they are a good warning to us today. (Matt 23:13)
What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
Hi Liveloved,
If Jesus said something that could be a warning for His follower today, it is certainly a good warning. I would not want to hear Jesus say that to me. Is that it for you, that there's no way you want to hear Jesus say that to you?
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What are ways in which you might be shutting off the kingdom of heaven from others because you haven't entered in or aren't living in the truth or your example is keeping others from entering?
How might I be like a Pharisee today? How might I be preventing someone from learning of the saving grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus, and one day living for eternity in heaven. To do this is possible by having not entered into the truth(?) or not living in the truth(?) or by being a poor example.
The guy at the gym- you talked to him some and determined he was not a Christian. Another day, another conversation, and you are declaring any conversation to him as being unbelief because you could have worded the conversation differently.
Is it thinking that everything I say and do is a sin because I'm a sinner, so I must be constantly thinking and murmuring prayer lest my sins overtake me and I forget to pray about one or two of them or hold on to them somehow?
Somewhere that left living like a Christian with occasional pharisee-like tendencies.
Thanks for the dialogue,
OneJohn410
_____________________________
The Lord is my strength and shield. I trust Him with all my heart. He helps me, and my heart is filled with joy. I burst out in songs of thanksgiving. Psalm 28:7
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