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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:26:07 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: SwedishCovenant
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Or perhaps more "Go, and sell all that you have, and give to the poor"
or
"As you did for the least of these, so you did as for Me"
or
"They sold all that they had, and turned it over to the leaders, and all shared in all that they had."
I have to admit I find great irony that a self-described rational anarchist would find in Christ's command's to take personal responsibility for those in need an argument for greatly expanding and utilizing a strong centralized and bureaucratic government.
Simply another manifestation of your misunderstanding of the political philosophy.
SwedishCovenant, doesn't anarchy promote decentralization of government over government spending??? i would assume such, but i am not an anarchist, so i don't know...
and please respect other users on this forum. thanks.
Exactly so.
And if telling someone they have their facts wrong is disrespectful, then they might as well close this forum down right now.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:27:33 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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By the way, there IS a difference between (classical) anarchist and rational anarchist, a difference already posted and explained.
Please do not confuse one with the other - or accuse me of being one when I claim to be the other.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:29:55 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
By the way, there IS a difference between (classical) anarchist and rational anarchist, a difference already posted and explained.
Please do not confuse one with the other - or accuse me of being one when I claim to be the other.
Well then I will try again - how does rational anarchy jive with the development of large systems of government put in place for the purpose of providing welfare and healthcare?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:39:29 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
By the way, there IS a difference between (classical) anarchist and rational anarchist, a difference already posted and explained.
Please do not confuse one with the other - or accuse me of being one when I claim to be the other.
Well then I will try again - how does rational anarchy jive with the development of large systems of government put in place for the purpose of providing welfare and healthcare?
Asked and answered - post 65.
You may not like the answer, or not understand it, but you cannot falsely claim that your question has not been answered.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:45:12 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
You may not like the answer, or not understand it, but you cannot falsely claim that your question has not been answered.
Well, I can claim the answer wasn't particularly clear, and seek clairification.
So how does this:
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals." In other words, all choices are made by individuals and no individual can shift or share responsibility for one's own choices.
Coincide with attempts to build strongly centralized bureaucracies whereby the government might be able to redistribute wealth to those in need? Or do you wish simply to hide in obfuscation?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:50:16 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You may not like the answer, or not understand it, but you cannot falsely claim that your question has not been answered.
Well, I can claim the answer wasn't particularly clear, and seek clairification.
So how does this:
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals." In other words, all choices are made by individuals and no individual can shift or share responsibility for one's own choices.
Coincide with attempts to build strongly centralized bureaucracies whereby the government might be able to redistribute wealth to those in need? Or do you wish simply to hide in obfuscation?
i have come to the same conclusion as you, jhud...
seems like a paradox to me...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:53:26 PM
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SwedishCovenant
Posts: 606
Joined: 8/8/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
You may not like the answer, or not understand it, but you cannot falsely claim that your question has not been answered.
Well, I can claim the answer wasn't particularly clear, and seek clairification.
So how does this:
"A rational anarchist believes that concepts such as ‘state’ and ‘society’ and ‘government’ have no existence save as physically exemplified in the acts of self-responsible individuals." In other words, all choices are made by individuals and no individual can shift or share responsibility for one's own choices.
Coincide with attempts to build strongly centralized bureaucracies whereby the government might be able to redistribute wealth to those in need? Or do you wish simply to hide in obfuscation?
i have come to the same conclusion as you, jhud...
seems like a paradox to me...
Asked and answered, AND covered in both the articles I linked.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 1:59:37 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7781
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
i have come to the same conclusion as you, jhud...
seems like a paradox to me...
Well the evasive response from Swedishcovenant would seem to indicate either he really has no idea, or his belief system is little different from standard big government liberalism.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 8:39:48 PM
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wing2000
Posts: 1028
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
Tell us who said that Darfur is "not in our national interest?"
It's evident by our actions...or lack there of. I didn't see too many of us Americans calling for military action to protect the inocent -- either in 92 or ten years later.
And yes, I think President Bush's humanitarian efforts in Africa are very commendable.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 10:07:19 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
"Since the outbreak of violence in Darfur, the United States provided, through FY 2007, nearly $2.5 billion in humanitarian and peacekeeping assistance to that region.
We spend 3 billion on ringtones every year in this country. This is suppose to be good? WE have given 2.5 billion since the outbreak of violence 21 years ago?? That's a joke, right? LOL.
The Ancient Nubians have asked for assistance, there are 900,000 left. They are going extinct. We havent helped them.
WE say we are in Iraq to free those people from terrorists/radical Islam, why not Sudan from these same people? No oil and of no interest to us.
quote:
AMERICA IS THE MOST GENEROUS NATION ON EARTH!
AFter being one of the countries that have stolen the most from these same countries. WE give them kibbles and bits and say see we are the most generous with the money we stole from you. At least we give some of it back. Like 2%.
And this counts as taking care of the poor?
How from a nation that says 92% believe in God.
I wanna ask what God?
Beccause the God of ABraham, Isaac and Jacob has made it clear how he feels about His people that are poor.
And this don't look no where close to anything in the Bible, not the King James Bible that I read at least.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/20/2008 10:39:46 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2785
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: online
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quote:
Sudan from these same people? No oil and of no interest to us.
They have oil. Why should the US get involved when if they did they would only be accused of doing it for its oil!
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21143-2004Dec22.html
To the issues you address, what is the UN doing? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 10:49:23 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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The U.N. is a place for nations to talk on relatively even terms. It gives legitimacy to international dialogs, which can be very necessary for alternatives to warfare.
It's not a solution to each and every international problem, no. But it's a framework that could eventually reach that point, if enough member nations see eye-to-eye on the matters in question. I think the most significant failings of the U.N. are only the myriad reflected failings of the world we live in.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 10:53:35 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
The U.N. is a place for nations to talk on relatively even terms. It gives legitimacy to international dialogs, which can be very necessary for alternatives to warfare.
It's not a solution to each and every international problem, no. But it's a framework that could eventually reach that point, if enough member nations see eye-to-eye on the matters in question. I think the most significant failings of the U.N. are only the myriad reflected failings of the world we live in.
In light of the previous comments about America not caring about the poor in the world and the fact that nothing has been done about Sudan makes the "talk" of the UN look pretty impotent. Especially when some of the major offenders of human rights sit (or chair) the human rights commission.
The UN (as it presently exists) is an anti-US, impotent debating society.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 11:22:29 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
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It's kind of like if you had a democracy of under 300 people, but some of the people were orders of magnitude more powerful than others in various respects, with wildly different motivations.
It would be a pretty impotent democracy with a lot of finger pointing. I think an impotent democracy is better than having nothing at all. Sure, it could be improved and changed in a variety of respects, but once you step away from it being a democracy, you take away at least one spark of legitimacy.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 11:28:51 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
It's kind of like if you had a democracy of under 300 people, but some of the people were orders of magnitude more powerful than others in various respects, with wildly different motivations.
It would be a pretty impotent democracy with a lot of finger pointing. I think an impotent democracy is better than having nothing at all. Sure, it could be improved and changed in a variety of respects, but once you step away from it being a democracy, you take away at least one spark of legitimacy.
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Are you saying it is a good thing that the UN is not a democracy?
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 12:20:09 PM
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tracydolls
Posts: 1839
Joined: 3/30/2008
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quote:
To the issues you address, what is the UN doing? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
My question is what are Christians doing? Nothing!
Last time I checked George Clooney was not one of us.
_____________________________
Rev 3:17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 12:24:59 PM
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Dubya
Posts: 1019
Joined: 10/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracydolls
quote:
To the issues you address, what is the UN doing? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING
My question is what are Christians doing? Nothing!
Last time I checked George Clooney was not one of us.
Actually, Tracy, Franklin Graham and Samaritan's Purse has been sounding the alarm since the Clinton administration. As I recall they have funded hospitals, refugee shelters, and orphanages.
I would hardly call that nothing.
Sure, more should be done. And I could never understand the attration for Clinton to get so involved in Bosnia when a worse genocide was going on in Sudan. I am sure politics had something to do with it, but I can't point the finger of blame at Christians in general.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 12:31:16 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Are you saying it is a good thing that the UN is not a democracy?
I'm saying that having legitimate channels to talk over is better than having none.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 1:06:34 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Are you saying it is a good thing that the UN is not a democracy?
I'm saying that having legitimate channels to talk over is better than having none.
well, talking channels or not, the fact that we haven't seen the UN storm into anything and maintain the balance and fight it to the end, only proves that its all talks anyway...only to say that we are attempting to think about something...a mockery of unity!!!
pay attention to Georgia and Russia...the UN should have stormed
in there and settled things the UN way  
instead, they are all talks...we should just be reinventing Geneva conventions if you ask me...
Re: Georgia: I think one of the principle aims of the U.N. was avoiding World War 3. I do not think that escalation of a minor conflict is conducive to that goal.
The U.N. is not a wholly separate entity from the various world governments. This causes problems, insofar as the U.N. is frequently paralyzed, but it does give it legitimacy, insofar as that paralysis is caused by conflicting interests. The U.N. is a fundamentally conservative organization, resorting to inaction when a resolution cannot be reached. The unwillingness to surrender some sovereignty makes the resolutions that the U.N. does reach rather worthless as well, but this is hardly the U.N.'s fault. Rather, I submit that it is the fault of the member nations for being unwilling to contribute to the organization to make it stronger.
Classic collective action problem.
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RE: America's problem, not mine - 8/21/2008 1:30:05 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
quote:
ORIGINAL: Dubya
I have no idea what you are talking about.
Are you saying it is a good thing that the UN is not a democracy?
I'm saying that having legitimate channels to talk over is better than having none.
well, talking channels or not, the fact that we haven't seen the UN storm into anything and maintain the balance and fight it to the end, only proves that its all talks anyway...only to say that we are attempting to think about something...a mockery of unity!!!
pay attention to Georgia and Russia...the UN should have stormed
in there and settled things the UN way
instead, they are all talks...we should just be reinventing Geneva conventions if you ask me...
Re: Georgia: I think one of the principle aims of the U.N. was avoiding World War 3. I do not think that escalation of a minor conflict is conducive to that goal.
The U.N. is not a wholly separate entity from the various world governments. This causes problems, insofar as the U.N. is frequently paralyzed, but it does give it legitimacy, insofar as that paralysis is caused by conflicting interests. The U.N. is a fundamentally conservative organization, resorting to inaction when a resolution cannot be reached. The unwillingness to surrender some sovereignty makes the resolutions that the U.N. does reach rather worthless as well, but this is hardly the U.N.'s fault. Rather, I submit that it is the fault of the member nations for being unwilling to contribute to the organization to make it stronger.
Classic collective action problem.
i will agree to this...
sometimes the UN appears as a waste of time...
but i think world unity will only exist after the rapture, when the antichrist is in control...
too many spiritual wars
we should be striving toward a better direction, but we need to be realistic about it.
Romanticism v Realism
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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