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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/21/2008 12:50:58 PM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
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It's unfortunate that the response to the first post is "look at this list of unrelated things!"
Yes, this list (the one the thread is about, not the absurd sleight-of-hand attempted in post #2) is one of many pieces of evidence that the war on terror is a joke. The war on terror is incoherent.
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/21/2008 4:25:44 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
i wouldn't insult or condone any commander in chief or general without knowing all of the facts. to do anything else is just plain foolish, its why man wasn't supposed to judge in the garden...
That scripture wasn't referring to the Rose Garden. And, failing to have a debate about policy and have the President be accountable is condoning. In this age, very little can be kept secret very long. As more information emerges, it-- with rare exception-- runs counter to the line put out by His Excellency.
I initially supported the Iraq War, not because the case was convincing, but because I assumed there was more information that His Excellency knew that could not be released. As it has turned out the other way around, I changed my stance accordingly.
but see, that's the problem...there is still information out there that can not be released...it's classified, away from the media, where it needs to be...thus, the public like you and me won't see it. we don't know and will not know the right side of this debate, therefore, it is just wiser to pass judgement.
believe me. i have worked with classified info. and know enough on this war to know that we are the good guys...
"In this age, very little can be kept secret very long. As more information emerges, it-- with rare exception-- runs counter to the line put out by His Excellency."
-you are wrong about this based on the very existence of classified info. and did it ever occur to you that the info pushed out, BY THE LIBERAL MEDIA, will of course go against our President???
remember, for the media, it is always publish or perish...they have to slam to keep their jobs.
also, when mentioning the Garden, i meant Eden. man was not created to judge...otherwise, God would have introduced us to the tree, and fed us from it...
So, what scenario would exist that a retired 4-star general gets on the watch list? If he had actually done something, a convenient leak would have or will occur. There are two ways classified info comes out. One, is thru the FOI Act, two is somebody lets it out. The media don't get information unless somebody on the inside squeals or whistleblows.
The terror watch list might be so easy to get on that there is not enough manpower to analyze the cases. Therefore, it becomes fairly worthless.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/21/2008 5:27:56 PM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2499
Joined: 10/1/2007
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The obvious question is that he has a TSA license to carry. How could you get that if he didn't have a clean record? So IMO there is NO reason why he is on a terrorist watch list.
My cousin from Mexico had to go through the same stuff for years having the same name as some drug mafioso. Every time he came to visit those idiotas in the TSA and DHS would detain him for questioning. Needless to say, he didn't visit too often because he got tired of their awesome security work! 
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/21/2008 5:52:30 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huangshan
It's unfortunate that the response to the first post is "look at this list of unrelated things!"
Yes, this list (the one the thread is about, not the absurd sleight-of-hand attempted in post #2) is one of many pieces of evidence that the war on terror is a joke. The war on terror is incoherent.
You mean this list?
liberals have:
- Literally worked for Saddam Hussein's defense team (Carter's attorney general)
- Exposed our spy programs.
- Tried to help terrorists by stopping our spy programs.
- Demanded OJ Simpson justice for our terrorists.
- Attacked our military and our military leaders (General Betrayus)
- Called our soldiers stupid (Kerry)
- Called our soldiers cold blooded murderers (Murtha)
- Compared our soldiers to Nazis (Durbin)
- Called our soldiers terrorists (Kerry)
Let's see if we can add some more.
- Attempted to block military recruiters from doing their job.
- Attempted to keep ROTC off college campuses.
- Believe that the above list is "evidence that the war on terror is a joke."
Who despises our military more, radical blood thirsty Muslims, or liberals like Code Pink?
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 12:01:19 AM
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huangshan
Posts: 766
Joined: 8/6/2008
Status: offline
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I should mention, I've been going in and out of China for the past couple of weeks, and frankly, China... China is downright comforting with airline security. They are very no-nonsense, professional, and polite. And fast!
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 1:04:20 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2169
Joined: 4/14/2005
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quote:
You mean this list?
In your quest to derail the thread which is going quite nicely you left out that liberals:
Supplied Saddam Hussein with the supplies he needed to get his chemical and biological weapons capabilities updated so he could use more effecient weapons against Kurds.
Equipped him with US equipment so that he could finish off Iran so he could invade Kuwait faster.
Picture of Liberal shaking hands with Saddam Hussein
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 7:06:03 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
quote:
ORIGINAL: cow451
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
i wouldn't insult or condone any commander in chief or general without knowing all of the facts. to do anything else is just plain foolish, its why man wasn't supposed to judge in the garden...
That scripture wasn't referring to the Rose Garden. And, failing to have a debate about policy and have the President be accountable is condoning. In this age, very little can be kept secret very long. As more information emerges, it-- with rare exception-- runs counter to the line put out by His Excellency.
I initially supported the Iraq War, not because the case was convincing, but because I assumed there was more information that His Excellency knew that could not be released. As it has turned out the other way around, I changed my stance accordingly.
but see, that's the problem...there is still information out there that can not be released...it's classified, away from the media, where it needs to be...thus, the public like you and me won't see it. we don't know and will not know the right side of this debate, therefore, it is just wiser to pass judgement.
believe me. i have worked with classified info. and know enough on this war to know that we are the good guys...
"In this age, very little can be kept secret very long. As more information emerges, it-- with rare exception-- runs counter to the line put out by His Excellency."
-you are wrong about this based on the very existence of classified info. and did it ever occur to you that the info pushed out, BY THE LIBERAL MEDIA, will of course go against our President???
remember, for the media, it is always publish or perish...they have to slam to keep their jobs.
also, when mentioning the Garden, i meant Eden. man was not created to judge...otherwise, God would have introduced us to the tree, and fed us from it...
So, what scenario would exist that a retired 4-star general gets on the watch list? If he had actually done something, a convenient leak would have or will occur. There are two ways classified info comes out. One, is thru the FOI Act, two is somebody lets it out. The media don't get information unless somebody on the inside squeals or whistleblows.
The terror watch list might be so easy to get on that there is not enough manpower to analyze the cases. Therefore, it becomes fairly worthless.
of course i don't know how the general got on the list!!! and of course it isn't my call, and since you don't know, i can only come to the conclusion, logically, that it isn't yours either...
which is why i am saying that it isn't best to judge in the beginning.
"The terror watch list might be so easy to get on that there is not enough manpower to analyze the cases. Therefore, it becomes fairly worthless."
the key word is "might"...other than that, your argument is debunked because it is strictly hypothetical...and yes, the list is hypothetical to an extent, but i don't work on the list and neither do you!
oh, i do agree with you on how classified info gets out, but hey buddy, there is still a whole lot more classified info out there! we don't know it all, thus, we shan't judge...
and believe me ignorance is bliss.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 8:42:46 AM
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mapachito13
Posts: 2499
Joined: 10/1/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
"The terror watch list might be so easy to get on that there is not enough manpower to analyze the cases. Therefore, it becomes fairly worthless."
THIS is the reason! Or do you believe that government officials can't act like a bunch of idiotic dunderheads? If I were you I wouldn't be looking for some "top secret" reason he was put on the list otherwise it infers many things:
- that TSA really screwed up by issuing a LTC a gun aboard an aircraft;
- that more oversight of the military people is required because they are not trustworthy irregardless of rank.
This also flies in the experience of my cousin from Mexico who had to go through hell every time he tries to visit us in the US just for having the same name as some drug mafioso (which the biometric fingerprint scan they perform as you enter should have cleared that up immediately). This also flies in the face of the stories of ineptitude I have heard from a close relative who is one of the founding members of the DHS.
So actually your theory is more based on conjecture of "top secret" information than fact!
_____________________________
Peace Sells....But Who's Buying!
"I would argue that the most serious threat to the United States is not someone hiding in a cave in Pakistan or Afghanistan, but our own fiscal irresponsibility."-David Walker, fmr comptroller general of the US
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 8:45:54 AM
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rlj
Posts: 2169
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
of course i don't know how the general got on the list!!! and of course it isn't my call, and since you don't know, i can only come to the conclusion, logically, that it isn't yours either...
It isn't the fact that a mistake was made to get him on the list. That happens but why can't they get him off? Especially when there is paperwork that can be filled out to do it. Going back to the OP article there were things that were more disturbing than the general-
For example James Robinson the pilot or James Robinson a former assistant AG under Clinton and the James Robinson who found himself on the list at age 5 who sent in the paperwork to get removed from the list but it hasn't happened. The sad thing about the TSA list is they can use Jim Robinson, Jimmy Robinson or even Jimbo Robinson and this will circumvent the list.
Of course it isn't the TSA's fault that this has happened. It is the airlines fault and the passengers' fault. Chertoff saying "well if the airline would get the passengers birth date then this could be prevented". Well my birthdate is on my drivers' license, it's on all state and federal issued ID cards, it's on my birth certificate. Really the airline knows your birthday and it isn't helping. Hopefully when they expand the program with the Secure Flight Program next year everything will be fixed. I believe it because the head bureaucrat of the TSA said so.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 10:35:05 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
of course i don't know how the general got on the list!!! and of course it isn't my call, and since you don't know, i can only come to the conclusion, logically, that it isn't yours either...
It isn't the fact that a mistake was made to get him on the list. That happens but why can't they get him off? Especially when there is paperwork that can be filled out to do it. Going back to the OP article there were things that were more disturbing than the general-
For example James Robinson the pilot or James Robinson a former assistant AG under Clinton and the James Robinson who found himself on the list at age 5 who sent in the paperwork to get removed from the list but it hasn't happened. The sad thing about the TSA list is they can use Jim Robinson, Jimmy Robinson or even Jimbo Robinson and this will circumvent the list.
Of course it isn't the TSA's fault that this has happened. It is the airlines fault and the passengers' fault. Chertoff saying "well if the airline would get the passengers birth date then this could be prevented". Well my birthdate is on my drivers' license, it's on all state and federal issued ID cards, it's on my birth certificate. Really the airline knows your birthday and it isn't helping. Hopefully when they expand the program with the Secure Flight Program next year everything will be fixed. I believe it because the head bureaucrat of the TSA said so.
i agree with you in principle, and thank you for logically arguing this...(not being sarcastic)...
paperwork, as tedious as it is, needs to get done...
and i believe you said it perfectly "expand the program"...this is still junior anyway...the program is young and needs to iron out the cogs...but what they ARE doing and with the new Personnel Security Program based on the DCID 6/4 and Intelligence Reform Act, they are synchronizing databases for one solid look, vice a needed 12 other database looks. (i work in the infosec, physec, and persec fields, mostly persec)...
however, i hold my reasoning based on what i know (not much at all in this case, and knowing the fact that there is classified info on the subject), and to those who oppose my view on this, well, i can't change your mind after using all of the facts i have in proving the existence of classified information. go ahead and make judgements, just remember how based they are on evidence.
< Message edited by huskarine -- 8/22/2008 10:46:02 AM >
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 10:44:57 AM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mapachito13
quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
"The terror watch list might be so easy to get on that there is not enough manpower to analyze the cases. Therefore, it becomes fairly worthless."
THIS is the reason! Or do you believe that government officials can't act like a bunch of idiotic dunderheads? If I were you I wouldn't be looking for some "top secret" reason he was put on the list otherwise it infers many things:
- that TSA really screwed up by issuing a LTC a gun aboard an aircraft;
- that more oversight of the military people is required because they are not trustworthy irregardless of rank.
This also flies in the experience of my cousin from Mexico who had to go through hell every time he tries to visit us in the US just for having the same name as some drug mafioso (which the biometric fingerprint scan they perform as you enter should have cleared that up immediately). This also flies in the face of the stories of ineptitude I have heard from a close relative who is one of the founding members of the DHS.
So actually your theory is more based on conjecture of "top secret" information than fact!
for one who has responded in a knowledge of not knowing much sensitive info, i strongly urge you to stop making judgements based on what you "heard" and people's "stories"...
you should read my above post a little more...the quote i used shows a hypothetical argument based on the word "might" which debunks the argument completely. it's all based on what you know, and since THERE IS classified info and confidential databases (JPAS, DCII), then you have no choice but to agree with me on the fact that you do not and will not know everything...thus, you can't judge.
and no, it is not a theory, its a fact. there is classified info out there that has reason and confidential case files with facts...(i would know, i do adjudications!!!)...
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 12:18:11 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2169
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
and i believe you said it perfectly "expand the program"...this is still junior anyway...the program is young and needs to iron out the cogs...but what they ARE doing and with the new Personnel Security Program based on the DCID 6/4 and Intelligence Reform Act, they are synchronizing databases for one solid look, vice a needed 12 other database looks. (i work in the infosec, physec, and persec fields, mostly persec)...
One of my big problems with how the GWoT has been conducted (and I'm looking domestically not at the 2 wars concurrently going on) is if the main reason that the perpetrators got away with 9/11 was a lack of sharing of information why is this still an issue 7 years later? I honestly don't believe that some to many of the new rules and regulations put into effect would be needed if agencies had pooled the information they have and had the laws and regulations that were currently on the books been followed.
Take for example southwest border security and sanctuary cities. A Middle Eastern terrorist that can get through that porous border could end up in a place like San Francisco or Denver where it is against the law to do immigration checks. If a problem is found it is illegal to notify INS. There have been numerous findings of Muslims and those from the region entering the country that way illegally. All of the things you mentioned as for intelligence are made moot by what I just posted. : /
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 12:32:42 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
You mean this list?
In your quest to derail the thread which is going quite nicely you left out that liberals:
Supplied Saddam Hussein with the supplies he needed to get his chemical and biological weapons capabilities updated so he could use more effecient weapons against Kurds.
Equipped him with US equipment so that he could finish off Iran so he could invade Kuwait faster.
Picture of Liberal shaking hands with Saddam Hussein
The original post was absurd, citing bureaucratic blunders common to our government to ridicule the program. By the same dopey measure we should get rid of federal food inspection because we've had safe food accidentally thrown out.
Different time, different situation. FDR gave weapons to Stalin. That doesn't mean ge gave them so "Uncle Joe," FDR's term, "could finish off" his own people faster. And FDR gave the guy weapons after he had killed over 30 million Russians.
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 1:14:49 PM
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huskarine
Posts: 444
Joined: 7/31/2008
From: Wheaton, IL
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
and i believe you said it perfectly "expand the program"...this is still junior anyway...the program is young and needs to iron out the cogs...but what they ARE doing and with the new Personnel Security Program based on the DCID 6/4 and Intelligence Reform Act, they are synchronizing databases for one solid look, vice a needed 12 other database looks. (i work in the infosec, physec, and persec fields, mostly persec)...
One of my big problems with how the GWoT has been conducted (and I'm looking domestically not at the 2 wars concurrently going on) is if the main reason that the perpetrators got away with 9/11 was a lack of sharing of information why is this still an issue 7 years later? I honestly don't believe that some to many of the new rules and regulations put into effect would be needed if agencies had pooled the information they have and had the laws and regulations that were currently on the books been followed.
Take for example southwest border security and sanctuary cities. A Middle Eastern terrorist that can get through that porous border could end up in a place like San Francisco or Denver where it is against the law to do immigration checks. If a problem is found it is illegal to notify INS. There have been numerous findings of Muslims and those from the region entering the country that way illegally. All of the things you mentioned as for intelligence are made moot by what I just posted. : /
"I honestly don't believe that some to many of the new rules and regulations put into effect would be needed if agencies had pooled the information they have and had the laws and regulations that were currently on the books been followed."
dude, i was agreeing with ya...agencies are pooling info together, that's the purpose of the IRA and DNI...
there is still a lot of change that needs to happen within the synch of databases, while keeping the same mission. it's just going to take some time...there is a lot of paperwork to be had
once again, i am agreeing with you in the previous post....please don't make a mockery of me and you by saying that my point is moot...remember who is in this business and who is not.
_____________________________
"Success is equated with excess/the ambition for excess wrecks us/as the top of the mind becomes the bottom line/when success is equated with excess" -Switchfoot "American Dream"
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 1:30:49 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
You mean this list?
In your quest to derail the thread which is going quite nicely you left out that liberals:
Supplied Saddam Hussein with the supplies he needed to get his chemical and biological weapons capabilities updated so he could use more effecient weapons against Kurds.
Equipped him with US equipment so that he could finish off Iran so he could invade Kuwait faster.
Picture of Liberal shaking hands with Saddam Hussein
Has done more to undermine the military in the past ten years than just about anybody.
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 1:38:49 PM
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cow451
Posts: 3973
Joined: 5/6/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: huskarine
of course i don't know how the general got on the list!!! and of course it isn't my call, and since you don't know, i can only come to the conclusion, logically, that it isn't yours either...
which is why i am saying that it isn't best to judge in the beginning.
and believe me ignorance is bliss.
Is ignorance really bliss????????? Ignorance is what led the American public to support the Iraq War. Ignorance did the same in Viet Nam. My argument is that knowledge is power.
American citizens have the right to know why they are on the Watch list and have due process to appeal. If the general has been involved with terrorist activities or groups, I believe his pension could still be at stake (somebody in the know might clarify).
_____________________________
Wenn Sie so intelligent sind, warum Sie hier sind?
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RE: I feel much safer now! - 8/22/2008 11:33:48 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2169
Joined: 4/14/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
The original post was absurd, citing bureaucratic blunders common to our government to ridicule the program. By the same dopey measure we should get rid of federal food inspection because we've had safe food accidentally thrown out.
No it isn't. The case of Erich Scherfen is probably some kind of error. However when a man is given a security clearance to carry a loaded gun on a commercial flight and is simultaneously placed on a terrorist watch list by that exact same agency there is something wrong. This isn't the CIA giving him some kind of secret clearance while the FBI has him on its most wanted list. Same agency, same man and opposite extremes. I haven't touched the other thread because that seems to me it could be a bureaucratic blunder which isn't that big of a deal to me. This one is.
quote:
once again, i am agreeing with you in the previous post....please don't make a mockery of me and you by saying that my point is moot...remember who is in this business and who is not.
Wasn't trying to mock you but humor me for a bit if you can. I want to ask about the TSA list. If I understand it properly the TSA list is nothing but a list of names only. I'm not concerned right now with how names end up on the list which is classified anyway. What seems to be missing at this point is any other kind of data to go with those names.
For example when James Robinson ended up on the list the name is all that appears at the airport. No birthday, social security number, passport number, personal information of any kind. This is why anyone named James Robinson gets hassled. There also doesn't seem to be a way that those who share that name can have their data stored. If the original James Robinson is an African American male aged about 40 the James Robinson who is a caucasian and young boy shouldn't have to keep dealing with this if those bits of information were both stored and readily available. Perhaps ultimately the information on the new passports could be quickly compared to the update list that Chertoff mentioned would come into effect in the next year or so?
Which now has me back to what you said about the system being young and needing updated.
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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I could even see the halter top suicide vest (ingenious devils) behind the police placard and in reading Dan Brown she shows herself to be a "servant of evil"! 
Now that gasp from me is for real!
