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Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/23/2008 8:28:37 PM
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ManimalX
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I know we have a thread on reasons to vote for Barack Obama, but things tend to go off on tangents in those big threads and I wanted a chance for Christian Obama supporters to biblically defend some of his specific positions. I am convicted that no Christian should lend their support to help appoint who I consider to be an unrighteous ruler. However, I am open to the possibility that I may have overlooked something in my examination of Barack Obama, so this is the chance for his supporters to lay out their best defenses of his policies.
This thread concerns abortion. BHO obviously supports the legality of abortion. Abortion is biblically an ungodly abomination. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to describe why a Christian should cast a vote for a person who supports abortion.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/23/2008 8:30:13 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3583
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Nothing is impossible with God, but to defend this Biblically is impossible with man.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/23/2008 9:25:17 PM
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relady
Posts: 1281
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Supporting the legality of abortion is not the same being in favor of abortion per se. Most Christians who support women having the choice do not necessarily think abortion is a good thing. We just don't get much of a chance to say that and have anyone hear us. I feel Mr. Obama most likely falls into this category as well.
I know many many people who are pro-choice who do not believe abortion is a good thing. We just don't agree that making it illiegal and criminal is the proper way to address the issue. Of course, ,we are generally shouted down and called murderers which really does wonders for rational discourse. 
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Abortion - 8/23/2008 9:28:32 PM
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Evangel70
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This issue has always been more difficult for me to debate. As a father of two beautiful children I cannot fathom anyone wanting to destroy potential children.
IMO the responsibility and guilt of abortion lies NOT with Roe v. Wade, or with abortion clinics but 100% with the female choosing to have an abortion.
That being said, from a Christian MALE perspective, while I may be able to empathize, I would never truly understand what it would be like to be 15 or 16 and pregnant or experience the violation of a rape. I believe that ALL attempts should be made to provide pregnant women with any care they need to deliver a healthy baby, be it financial assistance, counseling, parenting skills, or adoption alternatives.
Those given this assistance and still choose to abort their babies are fully responsible for their decisions. While forgiveness is always available for this or any other sin, one most also take responsibility for this heinous (yet forgivable) sin.
That being said, as a Christian, I also believe that babies unfortunate enough to be the victims of abortion, are in heaven with their creator and no longer in need of "protection". IMO the focus is in the wrong place. Congressmen aren't telling women to abort their babies (or to have sex for that matter). The fault for abortion lies mostly with parents not teaching their children about the sanctity of life and with churches putting the blame of Roe v. Wade instead of teaching their young people the dangers of sexual immorality and the responsibility of doing the right thing when they fail.
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Abortion - 8/23/2008 9:38:13 PM
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lightshineon
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We can not even defend pro-choice, as far as God is concerned. I understand where you are coming from Evangel, I do about fifteen or sixteen year olds. Though not all families are Christian, and do not teach children right, so what about them? Roe vs. Wade, is wicked, and allows what should be illegal to be legal. In many instances it is used as a form of birth control. I have seen it more than once, and it is just piling sin upon sin. Some things such as murder are not a choice.
< Message edited by lightshineon -- 8/23/2008 9:54:59 PM >
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Abortion - 8/23/2008 9:53:29 PM
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iampiper13
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Good post Evangel70. I am 100 percent prolife what bothers me the most is when I hear about babies being aborted because they are the wrong sex or something is wrong with the baby. I have a "special needs daughter" who wasn't tested because we had no idea that she had Spinal Muscular Atrophy, we'd never even heard of it. According to the docs both parents must be carriers of the defective gene. My wifes younger brother and his wife had evidence of it being on both sides of their family(my daughter and sister-in-laws cousin) when they were expecting their twins they asked their doc about testing for it and she advised them it would be safer to abort if the tests came back positive. The anger I felt about them being told that goes beyond words. I admit life isn't easy with my daughter its hard on her, on me, on my wife, on my marriage and my other daughter and son. BUT I would not trade her for anything she as are both my kinds is a true blessing, theres been times where I was tempted to take her to that doc with a gun , give it to the doc and say here shoot her her life isnt productive. I'd never do that ofcourse but it is tempting,wrong but tempting. My daughter has already touched many lives and will continue to do so so how can she be deemed worthless? I'm not very good at getting my thoughts out of my head lol which is why I don't post very much here. Anyways I'll get off my soapbox....
Thanks for letting me vent and
God Bless
Steve
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RE: Abortion - 8/23/2008 9:57:18 PM
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lightshineon
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May God bless you and your daughter. No one is more valuable in the eyes of the Lord than another, so, why does society deem it is? Make it a choice to kill what they see as defective. Hitler did that once didn't he? He was evil, so making those kind of choices are evil. Abortion is evil, no matter what.
quote:
ORIGINAL: iampiper13
Good post Evangel70. I am 100 percent prolife what bothers me the most is when I hear about babies being aborted because they are the wrong sex or something is wrong with the baby. I have a "special needs daughter" who wasn't tested because we had no idea that she had Spinal Muscular Atrophy, we'd never even heard of it. According to the docs both parents must be carriers of the defective gene. My wifes younger brother and his wife had evidence of it being on both sides of their family(my daughter and sister-in-laws cousin) when they were expecting their twins they asked their doc about testing for it and she advised them it would be safer to abort if the tests came back positive. The anger I felt about them being told that goes beyond words. I admit life isn't easy with my daughter its hard on her, on me, on my wife, on my marriage and my other daughter and son. BUT I would not trade her for anything she as are both my kinds is a true blessing, theres been times where I was tempted to take her to that doc with a gun , give it to the doc and say here shoot her her life isnt productive. I'd never do that ofcourse but it is tempting,wrong but tempting. My daughter has already touched many lives and will continue to do so so how can she be deemed worthless? I'm not very good at getting my thoughts out of my head lol which is why I don't post very much here. Anyways I'll get off my soapbox....
Thanks for letting me vent and
God Bless
Steve
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 12:06:47 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/12/2007
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I think the problem is that for many liberals, we see the actual act of abortion as several steps removed from supporting candidate XYZ.
1.) Does choosing to keep abortion legal necessarily mean you support abortion? Or what if you're a crazy libertarian who doesn't like the notion of government controlling peoples' bodies? Surely we could regulate thoughts that are against God, but I think most Christians on here would oppose this.
2.) So keeping abortion legal is a problem. It is also a platform of the Democratic party. Does this one issue outweigh all the others?
3.) One could make the argument, using any sort of reasoning that could avoid issue (1) and (2), that Israelites in Biblical times should have supported the zealots. The Romans supported slavery and feeding dissidents to lions, and anyone who wasn't totally opposed to Rome must obviously be a terrible Jew (Christian). Was Jesus apathetic about the events that involved humans and hungry animals in the Coliseum when he supported Rome by saying Jews should pay taxes?
4.) The Bible makes no mention of abortion. When you're trying to prove that something is bad, it's up to you to make the case for it. If I say, "Don't look at the sky, that's evil," I should offer a good explanation. You shouldn't be forced to defend the contrary view until you at least get a reasonable explanation for why looking at the sky is evil.
So unless we first get an explanation on why:
-Abortion takes a human life and therefore MUST be sin.
-Supporting its legality (while not supporting Abortion in and of itself, as Barack has said he doesn't support) MUST make you an evil politician
I propose we change the mission:
Drinking is biblically an ungodly abomination. Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to describe why a Christian should cast a vote for a person who is married to a beer heiress.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 8/24/2008 12:13:06 AM >
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 1:20:52 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
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I will reply to the posts thus far later on, but I would like to request that the thread stay on topic and not delve into the issue of alcohol. I would love to have this discussion, because it is worthy to have, but would you please start another thread in which we can do it?
Thank you!
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 1:22:29 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: relady
Supporting the legality of abortion is not the same being in favor of abortion per se.
Only for those who believe they desperate themselves from their actions...
quote:
Most Christians who support women having the choice do not necessarily think abortion is a good thing.
That makes their support for it even worse... Knowing it's not a good thing and still supporting it compounds the wrong...
quote:
I feel Mr. Obama most likely falls into this category as well.
Mr. Obama is part of the civil government that was ordained by God to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil, so his support for the murder of the unborn is an abomination in the eyes of God according to Proverbs...
quote:
I know many many people who are pro-choice who do not believe abortion is a good thing.
Supporting the murder of 3500 unborn children daily and saying it's not a good things doesn't absolve one for supporting it...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 1:40:28 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Evangel70
That being said, from a Christian MALE perspective, while I may be able to empathize, I would never truly understand what it would be like to be 15 or 16 and pregnant or experience the violation of a rape.
It's a sin issue so being a male or female doesn't matter... As well, since there is no crime and or sin having been committed by a child of rape there is no more cause for the woman to put the child to death for the actions of the father... Promoting the sin of murder doesn't really help the victim of a rape...
It's interesting that you mentioned the least of the reasons abortion(murder) takes place...
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I believe that ALL attempts should be made to provide pregnant women with any care they need to deliver a healthy baby, be it financial assistance, counseling, parenting skills, or adoption alternatives.
Why? Do you says the same for all sins? Shouldn't also you pay the bill of the thief down the street so he won't steal?
quote:
Those given this assistance and still choose to abort their babies are fully responsible for their decisions.
No... Those who murder the children are always fully responsible for their decisions. The bible doesn't say if things are tough you can commit sin and it's ok, you are not fully responsible.
quote:
While forgiveness is always available for this or any other sin, one most also take responsibility for this heinous (yet forgivable) sin.
This seems to be in conflict with you statement about those who are given every reason not to murder the child being fully responsible as opposed to those who have been given no reason being less responsible.. Of course that concept isn't biblical...
quote:
That being said, as a Christian, I also believe that babies unfortunate enough to be the victims of abortion, are in heaven with their creator and no longer in need of "protection".
That's a nice thought, but nothing in scriptures supports that... It's a fallacy to even imply that abortion is filling heaven with souls... The bible didn't say the Flood did so...
quote:
IMO the focus is in the wrong place. Congressmen aren't telling women to abort their babies (or to have sex for that matter).
Wrong... The ordained by God authority sanctioning the murder of unborn children promotes it and it's a grave sin for those in charge to do so... The bible speaks of rulers doing such acts from a position of authority and calling them abominations...
quote:
The fault for abortion lies mostly with parents not teaching their children about the sanctity of life
Hmmmm.... Prior in the post you said...
While forgiveness is always available for this or any other sin, one most also take responsibility for this heinous (yet forgivable) sin.
quote:
and with churches putting the blame of Roe v. Wade instead of teaching their young people the dangers of sexual immorality and the responsibility of doing the right thing when they fail.
The church is to blame for fighting a law that is in direct conflict with God law... What do you support that with? Any church that preaches the truth of God's word is teaching their young people the dangers of sexual immorality and the responsibility of doing the right thing when they fail.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 1:44:08 AM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2478
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think the problem is that for many liberals, we see the actual act of abortion as several steps removed from supporting candidate XYZ.
1.) Does choosing to keep abortion legal necessarily mean you support abortion? Or what if you're a crazy libertarian who doesn't like the notion of government controlling peoples' bodies? Surely we could regulate thoughts that are against God, but I think most Christians on here would oppose this.
2.) So keeping abortion legal is a problem. It is also a platform of the Democratic party. Does this one issue outweigh all the others?
3.) One could make the argument, using any sort of reasoning that could avoid issue (1) and (2), that Israelites in Biblical times should have supported the zealots. The Romans supported slavery and feeding dissidents to lions, and anyone who wasn't totally opposed to Rome must obviously be a terrible Jew (Christian). Was Jesus apathetic about the events that involved humans and hungry animals in the Coliseum when he supported Rome by saying Jews should pay taxes?
4.) The Bible makes no mention of abortion. When you're trying to prove that something is bad, it's up to you to make the case for it. If I say, "Don't look at the sky, that's evil," I should offer a good explanation. You shouldn't be forced to defend the contrary view until you at least get a reasonable explanation for why looking at the sky is evil.
So unless we first get an explanation on why:
-Abortion takes a human life and therefore MUST be sin.
-Supporting its legality (while not supporting Abortion in and of itself, as Barack has said he doesn't support) MUST make you an evil politician
Good points, IMO.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 1:58:57 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think the problem is that for many liberals, we see the actual act of abortion as several steps removed from supporting candidate XYZ.
That's a nice bit of rationalizing but it doesn't hold any water unless you keep the argument outside the word of God...
quote:
1.) Does choosing to keep abortion legal necessarily mean you support abortion?
Yes... Abortion leads to the murder of 3500 unborn child daily...
quote:
Or what if you're a crazy libertarian who doesn't like the notion of government controlling peoples' bodies?
They selfish desires don't trump the word of God and their view is tad bit hypocritical considering that there is another person involved, even if they choose to ignore that fact...
quote:
Surely we could regulate thoughts that are against God, but I think most Christians on here would oppose this.
We are not talking about a simple expression of an opinion but the murder of 3500 unborn children daily and I say with extreme confidence that God is opposed and everyone that claims His name should be...
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2.) So keeping abortion legal is a problem.
It's ungodly...
quote:
It is also a platform of the Democratic party.
Woe to those who support such an evil action...
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Does this one issue outweigh all the others?
Depends.... One would have to find the average weight of an unborn child...
quote:
3.) One could make the argument, using any sort of reasoning that could avoid issue (1) and (2), that Israelites in Biblical times should have supported the zealots. The Romans supported slavery and feeding dissidents to lions, and anyone who wasn't totally opposed to Rome must obviously be a terrible Jew (Christian). Was Jesus apathetic about the events that involved humans and hungry animals in the Coliseum when he supported Rome by saying Jews should pay taxes?
Of course not... He ordained the civil government for the sake of order... The fact that civil governments don't always measure up to what is right in the sight of God doesn't remove that fact they serve a purpose ordained by God...
quote:
4.) The Bible makes no mention of abortion.
It doesn't mention many forms of taking life... Guns, bombs, nukes, planes, and so on...
quote:
When you're trying to prove that something is bad, it's up to you to make the case for it. If I say, "Don't look at the sky, that's evil," I should offer a good explanation. You shouldn't be forced to defend the contrary view until you at least get a reasonable explanation for why looking at the sky is evil.
So unless we first get an explanation on why:
-Abortion takes a human life and therefore MUST be sin.
Abortion is the unjust taking of life... What crimes has the unborn committed that allows the state to sanction the action, none, and or the person seeking to murder the child? None... There must be just cause... In the case of abortion there is not just case, even rape since the child is not guilty for the sins of the father any more than it is of the mother...
quote:
-Supporting its legality (while not supporting Abortion in and of itself, as Barack has said he doesn't support) MUST make you an evil politician
Mr. Obama is part of the civil government that was ordained by God to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil, so his support for the murder of the unborn(an evil act) is an abomination in the eyes of God according to Proverbs... It's a wicked action for a leader to support such an evil thing...
quote:
I propose we change the mission:
Drinking is biblically an ungodly abomination.
I purpose you explain how drinking is biblically an ungodly abomination when Christ himself turned water into wine for a wedding ceremony... The bible speaks of being drunk being a issue, not drinking...
quote:
Your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to describe why a Christian should cast a vote for a person who is married to a beer heiress.
What is inherently sinful about owning a beer company? As opposed to an abortion clinic...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Abortion - 8/24/2008 2:01:42 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I think the problem is that for many liberals, we see the actual act of abortion as several steps removed from supporting candidate XYZ.
1.) Does choosing to keep abortion legal necessarily mean you support abortion? Or what if you're a crazy libertarian who doesn't like the notion of government controlling peoples' bodies? Surely we could regulate thoughts that are against God, but I think most Christians on here would oppose this.
2.) So keeping abortion legal is a problem. It is also a platform of the Democratic party. Does this one issue outweigh all the others?
3.) One could make the argument, using any sort of reasoning that could avoid issue (1) and (2), that Israelites in Biblical times should have supported the zealots. The Romans supported slavery and feeding dissidents to lions, and anyone who wasn't totally opposed to Rome must obviously be a terrible Jew (Christian). Was Jesus apathetic about the events that involved humans and hungry animals in the Coliseum when he supported Rome by saying Jews should pay taxes?
4.) The Bible makes no mention of abortion. When you're trying to prove that something is bad, it's up to you to make the case for it. If I say, "Don't look at the sky, that's evil," I should offer a good explanation. You shouldn't be forced to defend the contrary view until you at least get a reasonable explanation for why looking at the sky is evil.
So unless we first get an explanation on why:
-Abortion takes a human life and therefore MUST be sin.
-Supporting its legality (while not supporting Abortion in and of itself, as Barack has said he doesn't support) MUST make you an evil politician
Good points, IMO.
Actually not since using that logic any form of taking life not mentioned in the bible isn't murder... So.... If you take life with a gun, bomb, car, plane, #2 pencil, baseball bat, and a Phillips screwdriver it's not murder since none of those means of taking life are mentioned...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 2:29:10 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
Most Christians who support women having the choice do not necessarily think abortion is a good thing.
That makes their support for it even worse... Knowing it's not a good thing and still supporting it compounds the wrong...
quote:
I feel Mr. Obama most likely falls into this category as well.
Mr. Obama is part of the civil government that was ordained by God to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil, so his support for the murder of the unborn is an abomination in the eyes of God according to Proverbs...
quote:
I know many many people who are pro-choice who do not believe abortion is a good thing.
Supporting the murder of 3500 unborn children daily and saying it's not a good things doesn't absolve one for supporting it...
Fantastic points, John, and all true. The bit about the responsibility of a ruler to fight evil is exactly the point I had in mind when I started this thread.
(BTW, your name IS John, correct? Mine is Matthew. All we need are Mark and Luke and... well, then we would have four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What is the point? I don't know!)
I do have to disagree with one thing you wrote regarding babies going to heaven:
quote:
That's a nice thought, but nothing in scriptures supports that... It's a fallacy to even imply that abortion is filling heaven with souls... The bible didn't say the Flood did so...
In 2nd Samuel 12:23, David seems to believe that he will see his dead baby in heaven. He wrote: "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." I have faith in God's goodness and justice, and I believe that He will make exactly the right judgment regarding the eternal destination of murdered babies. Maybe He will give them a fast forward of their life that would have been and gives them the choice to accept His salvation, or maybe since the faith of a child is what is required to accept Christ they already believe in whatever stage of development they were in at the moment of their termination.
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 2:39:28 AM
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saved9201
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Great. Just what we need. Another abortion thread.
So the mission is, to describe why a Christian should cast a vote for a person who supports abortion.
The question has been raised, does pro-choice = supporting abortion?
First,let me state my position. Personally, I believe life begins at conception. Legally and biologically this may be difficult to prove, but there is substantial biblical evidence to support this. In fact, a case can be made biblically that life begins before conception because the bible says God knew us before we were conceived.
So I believe there is a life growing inside that mother the moment of conception.
The question is, at what point do the legal rights of the mother regarding what she can do with that part of her, end? As despicable as it may be to some of us, that life inside the mother is part of the mothers body, and some have chosen at some point that they don't want that part of their body anymore. So when do we decide that it's no longer their (or their doctors) decision to make? And, if we decide that a woman has no right to chose to terminate a pregnancy or not, can we also extend the law to tell her that (if technology advances to this point) she cannot choose the sex of the child? Or the color eyes? Again, I'm talking legally, not biblically.
My point is, if Christians choose to pass this issue on for the President and ultimately the courts to decide, then this must be dealt with legally, not biblically. As The Messiah, B. Hussein O., The Wicked, Unrighteous Ruler said in a previous speech, you can't go before the Supreme Court and say, "Thus sayeth the Lord," and that will suffice. Not everyone believes as we believe. That may be a hard pill for us to swallow, but just electing "Christian" leaders is no guarantee in our current legal system, that biblical law will prevail. No matter what the politicians tell you to get your vote, our Constitution is the final authority when it comes to rights and such.
But if we want to deal with wth the abortion issue biblically, then, although not everyone believes as we believe, as Morpheus (The Matrix) said, our "beliefs do not require them to." Therefore, it's up to us, not the courts, not the president, to convince mothers considering abortion that aren't saved to first get saved. And those that are saved, to show them, IN LOVE, through the scriptures, why all babies are blessings from God and murdering them would be a terrible thing to do.
Now before people start wheeling out the old, slavery and the civil rights movement analogy, keep in mind that before any law was passed, people fought and died and changed the hearts and minds of the people. Not of all the people, but of enough. And the church played an integral PRO-ACTIVE role in this. In other words, the Quakers, Martin Luther King and others did more than just hand out voter guides and post to forums and label people and look down their noses at those who disagreed with them.
So perhaps it would be better if we had a pro-choice president. It would force Christians to do more to end abortion instead of just hoping and praying and waiting patiently for liberal Supreme Court Justices to retire or die hoping and praying that pro-life judges would get appointed. Maybe having pro-life republicans in office compels some Christians to shout "hallelujah, the victory has been won" and to sit back and and do nothing more for the cause of the unborn until it's time to vote again?
Okay. I know what I've just done is the equivalent of calling an airstrike on my own position, but I'm safely in my foxhole so fire away.
- Julius
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 2:44:41 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Fantastic points, John, and all true. The bit about the responsibility of a ruler to fight evil is exactly the point I had in mind when I started this thread.
(BTW, your name IS John, correct? Mine is Matthew. All we need are Mark and Luke and... well, then we would have four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What is the point? I don't know!)
It's John
I do have to disagree with one thing you wrote regarding babies going to heaven:
quote:
That's a nice thought, but nothing in scriptures supports that... It's a fallacy to even imply that abortion is filling heaven with souls... The bible didn't say the Flood did so...
In 2nd Samuel 12:23, David seems to believe that he will see his dead baby in heaven. He wrote: "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." I have faith in God's goodness and justice, and I believe that He will make exactly the right judgment regarding the eternal destination of murdered babies. Maybe He will give them a fast forward of their life that would have been and gives them the choice to accept His salvation, or maybe since the faith of a child is what is required to accept Christ they already believe in whatever stage of development they were in at the moment of their termination.
I believe David is saying he will follow his child in death, that his child is not coming back to life... In other words, it's about direction... And even if you wish to believe he is saying he will see his child in heaven we are talking about a man after God's on heart... How does that translate to say, Pharaoh, or those in the Flood, or those Joshua put to the sword, every man, woman and child...
Truth is, everyone is in the same boat, murdered babies are part of mankind, not outside of it and we are all lost and in need of a Savior. If anyone is saved due to their condition/circumstances God is respecter of persons. Salvation is not merited, so there is nothing more redeeming in a child as there is a person who lived 80 years and it at their last breath...
And notion that abortion is filling heaven with souls is dangerous in my mind. God can and does use evil for good, but it's shaky ground to make the call that abortion is filling the ranks of heaven.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 3:20:22 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: saved9201
Great. Just what we need. Another abortion thread.
So the mission is, to describe why a Christian should cast a vote for a person who supports abortion.
The question has been raised, does pro-choice = supporting abortion?
First,let me state my position. Personally, I believe life begins at conception. Legally and biologically this may be difficult to prove, but there is substantial biblical evidence to support this. In fact, a case can be made biblically that life begins before conception because the bible says God knew us before we were conceived.
So I believe there is a life growing inside that mother the moment of conception.
The question is, at what point do the legal rights of the mother regarding what she can do with that part of her, end? As despicable as it may be to some of us, that life inside the mother is part of the mothers body, and some have chosen at some point that they don't want that part of their body anymore.
Does the bible speak of the child as being part of the woman's body? The bible says John the Baptist leaped for joy, not a portion of his mother anatomy... Of course if this is just a "legal" argument and I must ignore the bible, hence the truth I guess you have a valid... No... That can't be... God's word trumps man's law...
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So when do we decide that it's no longer their (or their doctors) decision to make? And, if we decide that a woman has no right to chose to terminate a pregnancy or not, can we also extend the law to tell her that (if technology advances to this point) she cannot choose the sex of the child? Or the color eyes? Again, I'm talking legally, not biblically.
What is the point of making secular arguments for what you know is wrong?
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My point is, if Christians choose to pass this issue on for the President and ultimately the courts to decide, then this must be dealt with legally, not biblically.
Where in the bible does it command us to be double minded? Where is it written that Christian should not attempt to impress upon the God ordained civil government what is right according to God's word... You can bet God holds the government responsible for it's actions and those who support any and all evil actions...
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As The Messiah, B. Hussein O., The Wicked, Unrighteous Ruler said in a previous speech, you can't go before the Supreme Court and say, "Thus sayeth the Lord," and that will suffice.
Since he really doesn't believe what the Lord says, I can see why he would say that... One can address the Supreme Court with Godly principles translated to legal speak. If they don't accept it that is their issue and they will answer for it... There is nothing that say we are to act in some godless manner because we are dealing with the civil government.
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Not everyone believes as we believe. That may be a hard pill for us to swallow, but just electing "Christian" leaders is no guarantee in our current legal system, that biblical law will prevail. No matter what the politicians tell you to get your vote, our Constitution is the final authority when it comes to rights and such.
That fact doesn't absolve one from the supreme law, that being God... God isn't going to accept the excuse that the Constitution said that sin is ok therefore it's out of God's jurisdiction...
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But if we want to deal with wth the abortion issue biblically, then, although not everyone believes as we believe, as Morpheus (The Matrix) said, our "beliefs do not require them to." Therefore, it's up to us, not the courts, not the president, to convince mothers considering abortion that aren't saved to first get saved.
Where is it written that we are to ignore the courts and elected officials on the matter and simply pray and attempt to help those who seek help... I say that because it's hard to help those who consider abortion to like having a wart removed...
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And those that are saved, to show them, IN LOVE, through the scriptures, why all babies are blessings from God and murdering them would be a terrible thing to do.
Really... How many "saved" people are confused regarding abortion? Whenever this is mentioned it's as if the entire body of Christ is regulated to Spiritual stupidity on the subject...
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So perhaps it would be better if we had a pro-choice president. It would force Christians to do more to end abortion instead of just hoping and praying and waiting patiently for liberal Supreme Court Justices to retire or die hoping and praying that pro-life judges would get appointed.
The bible regarding evil rulers...
Proverbs 28:15 As a roaring lion, and a ranging bear; so is a wicked ruler over the poor people.
Proverbs 16:12 It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness: for the throne is established by righteousness.
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
Proverbs 29:16 When the wicked are in authority, transgression increases; but the righteous will look upon their downfall.
Proverbs 29:27 An unjust man is an abomination to the just: and he that is upright in the way is abomination to the wicked.
Regarding accepting evil rulers...
Proverbs 18:5 It is not good to accept the person of the wicked, to overthrow the righteous in judgment.
Proverbs 25:5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousnes
Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring.
A wise ruler...
Proverbs 20:26 A wise king scattereth the wicked, and bringeth the wheel over them.
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Maybe having pro-life republicans in office compels some Christians to shout "hallelujah, the victory has been won" and to sit back and and do nothing more for the cause of the unborn until it's time to vote again?
Okay. I know what I've just done is the equivalent of calling an airstrike on my own position, but I'm safely in my foxhole so fire away.
Heh.... Too funny... Danger close?  Here comes the snake and nape...
Proverbs 29:2 When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked beareth rule, the people mourn.
Night... Take care Julius...
< Message edited by SovereignIsHe -- 8/24/2008 11:07:43 AM >
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 3:34:14 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Fantastic points, John, and all true. The bit about the responsibility of a ruler to fight evil is exactly the point I had in mind when I started this thread.
(BTW, your name IS John, correct? Mine is Matthew. All we need are Mark and Luke and... well, then we would have four people named Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. What is the point? I don't know!)
It's John
I do have to disagree with one thing you wrote regarding babies going to heaven:
quote:
That's a nice thought, but nothing in scriptures supports that... It's a fallacy to even imply that abortion is filling heaven with souls... The bible didn't say the Flood did so...
In 2nd Samuel 12:23, David seems to believe that he will see his dead baby in heaven. He wrote: "But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." I have faith in God's goodness and justice, and I believe that He will make exactly the right judgment regarding the eternal destination of murdered babies. Maybe He will give them a fast forward of their life that would have been and gives them the choice to accept His salvation, or maybe since the faith of a child is what is required to accept Christ they already believe in whatever stage of development they were in at the moment of their termination.
I believe David is saying he will follow his child in death, that his child is not coming back to life... In other words, it's about direction... And even if you wish to believe he is saying he will see his child in heaven we are talking about a man after God's on heart... How does that translate to say, Pharaoh, or those in the Flood, or those Joshua put to the sword, every man, woman and child...
Truth is, everyone is in the same boat, murdered babies are part of mankind, not outside of it and we are all lost and in need of a Savior. If anyone is saved due to their condition/circumstances God is respecter of persons. Salvation is not merited, so there is nothing more redeeming in a child as there is a person who lived 80 years and it at their last breath...
And notion that abortion is filling heaven with souls is dangerous in my mind. God can and does use evil for good, but it's shaky ground to make the call that abortion is filling the ranks of heaven.
Very good points, all of them. I wasn't trying to chastise you or anything, just pointing out that the Bible does have something to say about babies and eternity.
I happen to think David had no doubt concerning his eternal destination, and therefore when he speaks of joining his dead baby there he is speaking of eternal paradise. However, he could very well only be speaking of death.
I have actually heard arguments that since aborted babies go to heaven, it must be a good thing to keep killing them. The problem with that argument is that humans are not given permission to terminate life in this manner, and therefore the act is wicked.
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"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 3:38:39 AM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1217
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
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P.S.
Before this gets tossed into the trash heap of one-stop threads, please keep in mind that this thread is specifically about Barack Obama's stance on abortion and whether or not a Christian should support him.
The fact that abortion is an abominable sin should not be the main issue of the thread.
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"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Biblically Defend Obama: Abortion - 8/24/2008 9:26:54 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5388
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
Very good points, all of them. I wasn't trying to chastise you or anything, just pointing out that the Bible does have something to say about babies and eternity.
I understand and please consider the verse speaks of a baby, not babies.
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I happen to think David had no doubt concerning his eternal destination, and therefore when he speaks of joining his dead baby there he is speaking of eternal paradise. However, he could very well only be speaking of death.
Given who David is it's a given to believe his measure of faith would have him believe his child would be in heaven butt that is because he believed in the promise of the covenant not because of some belief that children are granted automatic salvation.
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I have actually heard arguments that since aborted babies go to heaven, it must be a good thing to keep killing them. The problem with that argument is that humans are not given permission to terminate life in this manner, and therefore the act is wicked.
Same here... Which is why I mentioned the idea of it dangerous in my mind.
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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Christians and Abortion - 8/24/2008 10:21:39 AM
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Evangel70
Posts: 554
Joined: 10/28/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
My point is, if Christians choose to pass this issue on for the President and ultimately the courts to decide, then this must be dealt with legally, not biblically...That may be a hard pill for us to swallow, but just electing "Christian" leaders is no guarantee in our current legal system, that biblical law will prevail. No matter what the politicians tell you to get your vote, our Constitution is the final authority when it comes to rights and such.
But if we want to deal with wth the abortion issue biblically, then, although not everyone believes as we believe, as Morpheus (The Matrix) said, our "beliefs do not require th | | |
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