quote:

ORIGINAL: relady

Supporting the legality of abortion is not the same being in favor of abortion per se. Most Christians who support women having the choice do not necessarily think abortion is a good thing. We just don't get much of a chance to say that and have anyone hear us. I feel Mr. Obama most likely falls into this category as well.

I know many many people who are pro-choice who do not believe abortion is a good thing. We just don't agree that making it illiegal and criminal is the proper way to address the issue. Of course, ,we are generally shouted down and called murderers which really does wonders for rational discourse.

quote:

The Bible makes no mention of abortion. When you're trying to prove that something is bad, it's up to you to make the case for it. If I say, "Don't look at the sky, that's evil," I should offer a good explanation. You shouldn't be forced to defend the contrary view until you at least get a reasonable explanation for why looking at the sky is evil.

quote:

-Abortion takes a human life and therefore MUST be sin.
-Supporting its legality (while not supporting Abortion in and of itself, as Barack has said he doesn't support) MUST make you an evil politician

quote:

There are worse sins than abortions.

Pride being one of them!

quote:

Science does now prove that life begins at conception, and the child in the womb is a real person. And the courts back that one up when ever a prosecutor brings charges against a women who takes drugs during her pregnancy, as well as bringing charges against the person who beats a woman causing the death of her child she is carrying in her.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

quote:

My point is, if Christians choose to pass this issue on for the President and ultimately the courts to decide, then this must be dealt with legally, not biblically...That may be a hard pill for us to swallow, but just electing "Christian" leaders is no guarantee in our current legal system, that biblical law will prevail. No matter what the politicians tell you to get your vote, our Constitution is the final authority when it comes to rights and such.

But if we want to deal with wth the abortion issue biblically, then, although not everyone believes as we believe, as Morpheus (The Matrix) said, our "beliefs do not require them to." Therefore, it's up to us, not the courts, not the president, to convince mothers considering abortion that aren't saved to first get saved. And those that are saved, to show them, IN LOVE, through the scriptures, why all babies are blessings from God and murdering them would be a terrible thing to do.

Excellent post Julius!

quote:

Hardly... Calling for Christians to be double minded isn't going to solve the problem...

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

Actually, the abortion rate these days is comparable to the estimated abortion rate prior to Roe vs. Wade.

quote:


Well, I mean, the desire to keep looking at the sky legal is a tad selfish as well, despite the fact that it is against God's workd.

quote:

If the feds can regulate your body, they can regulate your brain, as well.

quote:

So then you are saying that we shouldn't withold our votes from the Democrats just because they support abortion.

quote:

The only difference is that Guns, bombs, nukes, and planes didn't exist back then. Abortion certainly did; the NRLC itself notes that Roman culture in Christ's time was opposed to abortion. Still, we see no mention of it in the Bible.

quote:


How do we know that it is human life?

quote:

A fetus in the first several weeks of pregnancy is a collection of homogenous cells. It has more in common with algae than it has with humans. The only thing that makes it similar is its DNA, but if you're going to argue this from the DNA perspective, then I guess it's OK for a mother to abort one of the twins if she's having identical twins.

quote:


So you then agree that all those politicians who haven't decided to make blaspheming the holy spiriti illegal support the blasphemy of the holy spirit and are therefore wicked?

quote:


Unlike the abortion is murder crowd, the "anti-Drinking" crowd actually has some Bible verses to directly back their position up:

quote:

-Romans 13:13

quote:

-1 Cor. 5:11

quote:


-1 Cor. 6:10

quote:

-Eph. 5:18

quote:

Whether or not Jesus brought wine, he wasn't the chief of a brewing empire that runs ads on a regular basis encouraging people to get drunk.

quote:


ORIGINAL: tracydolls

I believe a baby is a baby the moment of conception. I also believe that abortions are the law. If a woman wants to have one thats on her.

quote:


Now can I use the Bible to defend Bo? No I would'nt defend anyone with it.

quote:


WE all fall short. There are worse sins than abortions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tracydolls

Pride being one of them!

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evangel70

quote:

Hardly... Calling for Christians to be double minded isn't going to solve the problem...

You're right. Only calling Christians to be followers of Christ and be DOERS of the word (i.e. getting involved in the lives of women seeking abortions) and not HEARERS only (expecting politicians to stop abortions) will solve the problem.

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

It doesn't mention many forms of taking life... Guns, bombs, nukes, planes, and so on...

The only difference is that Guns, bombs, nukes, and planes didn't exist back then. Abortion certainly did; the NRLC itself notes that Roman culture in Christ's time was opposed to abortion. Still, we see no mention of it in the Bible.

quote:


How do we know that it is human life? A fetus in the first several weeks of pregnancy is a collection of homogenous cells. It has more in common with algae than it has with humans. The only thing that makes it similar is its DNA, but if you're going to argue this from the DNA perspective, then I guess it's OK for a mother to abort one of the twins if she's having identical twins.

I would argue that life becomes human when consciousness begins. In AI, there's actually a measurable threshold when a neural network has enough neurons to attain consciousness, and I would suggest that this would be a good starting point for determining when human life actually begins (probably mid 2nd trimester). As second trimester abortions are extremely rare and are almost illegal (most states make it illegal to abort a fetus viable outside the womb), is it really necessary to change abortion laws?

quote:

" . . . every time a sperm cell and ovum unite, a new being is created which is alive and will continue to live unless its death is brought about by some specific condition." - (E.L. Potter, M.D., and J.M. Craig, M.D. Pathology of the Fetus and the Infant (3rd Edition). Chicago: Year Book Medical Publishers, 1975, page vii.)

quote:

"Zygote. This cell, formed by the union of an ovum and a sperm represents the beginning of a human being." - (Moore, Keith L. and Persaud, T.V.N. Before We Are Born: Essentials of Embryology and Birth Defects. 4th edition. Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1993, p. 1)

quote:

"Although human life is a continuous process, fertilization is a critical landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed.” - (O'Rahilly, Ronan and Müller, Fabiola. Human Embryology and Teratology, 2nd edition. New York: Wiley-Liss, 1996, pp. 8)

quote:

“Each individual has a very neat beginning, at conception."

"At no time is the human being a blob of protoplasm. As far as your nature is concerned, I see no difference between the early person that you were at conception and the late person which you are now. You were and are a human being."

"as soon as he has been conceived, a man is a man."

- (Dr. Jerome LeJeune, professor of genetics at the University of Descartes in Paris and discoverer of the chromosome pattern of Down syndrome)

quote:

"By all the criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." - (Professor Hymie Gordon - Mayo Clinic)

quote:

“I oppose abortion. I do so, first, because I accept what is biologically manifest—that human life commences at the time of conception—and, second, because I believe it is wrong to take innocent human life under any circumstances. My position is scientific, pragmatic, and humanitarian.” - (Dr. Landrum Shettles, obstetrician-gynecologist at Columbia-Presbyterian Medical Center in New York.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX

P.S.

Before this gets tossed into the trash heap of one-stop threads, please keep in mind that this thread is specifically about Barack Obama's stance on abortion and whether or not a Christian should support him.

The fact that abortion is an abominable sin should not be the main issue of the thread.

quote:

How do we know that it is human life? A fetus in the first several weeks of pregnancy is a collection of homogenous cells. It has more in common with algae than it has with humans. The only thing that makes it similar is its DNA, but if you're going to argue this from the DNA perspective, then I guess it's OK for a mother to abort one of the twins if she's having identical twins.

I would argue that life becomes human when consciousness begins. In AI, there's actually a measurable threshold when a neural network has enough neurons to attain consciousness, and I would suggest that this would be a good starting point for determining when human life actually begins (probably mid 2nd trimester). As second trimester abortions are extremely rare and are almost illegal (most states make it illegal to abort a fetus viable outside the womb), is it really necessary to change abortion laws?

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible, so we should abandon that idea. The Rapture isn't mentioned in the Bible, so we should stop expecting Jesus to come for His saints. Dinosaurs aren't in the Bible, so we should probably stop believing that man and dinosaurs walked together. Bologna sammies aren't mentioned in the Bible, so someone should tell Oscar Meyer that they are selling imaginary products.

quote:

Just because the specific word "abortion" isn't in the Bible, the underlying principle is still there: God is a God of the living, life is precious, and we are COMMANDED not to terminate it except under specific conditions, such as God commanding the Israelites to destroy such-and-such enemy or capital punishment. We do not have the authority to terminate life for the sake of convenience. Of course, if you don't believe that life begins at conception, then you get to dodge this fact.

quote:

You can argue that life begins at consciousness all you want, but you are mistaken. If that were true, then it is just peachy to go ahead and pull the plug on people who may not meet the definition of having an active consciousness.

quote:

And a fertilized egg has more in common with algae than humans?!?! Are you serious?

quote:

Let's here from some people with lots of letters after their names:

quote:

Do any of these medical doctor and scientists have any effect on your thinking?

quote:

ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

quote:

ORIGINAL: ManimalX
The Trinity isn't mentioned in the Bible, so we should abandon that idea. The Rapture isn't mentioned in the Bible, so we should stop expecting Jesus to come for His saints. Dinosaurs aren't in the Bible, so we should probably stop believing that man and dinosaurs walked together. Bologna sammies aren't mentioned in the Bible, so someone should tell Oscar Meyer that they are selling imaginary products.

On the other hand, abortion was a controversial moral issue during the time of the Romans, at the NRLC has noted. One would think that there would be teachings in at least the New Testament considering that abortion was an issue in his time, and he knew it would become an issue in our time.

quote:

Just because the specific word "abortion" isn't in the Bible, the underlying principle is still there: God is a God of the living, life is precious, and we are COMMANDED not to terminate it except under specific conditions, such as God commanding the Israelites to destroy such-and-such enemy or capital punishment. We do not have the authority to terminate life for the sake of convenience. Of course, if you don't believe that life begins at conception, then you get to dodge this fact.

Many people take life by eating meat; others take life by hunting. The very act of walking sometimes takes the life of ants. Life is precious and a creation of God that we aren't to take lightly, but not all life is human.




One of the things that makes humans distinct from the other animals what happens inside of our consciousness.

quote:

You can argue that life begins at consciousness all you want, but you are mistaken. If that were true, then it is just peachy to go ahead and pull the plug on people who may not meet the definition of having an active consciousness.

I argued that life becomes human when it gains enough neurons to have consciousness.

Which is also why I thought that the government should have stayed out of the Terry Schiavo debacle.

quote:

And a fertilized egg has more in common with algae than humans?!?! Are you serious?

The only thing that is physically different is the presence of cell walls and the DNA. A novice looking in a microscope would have trouble figuring out which is which.

quote:

Let's here from some people with lots of letters after their names:

This argument follows from the logical fallacy, "appeal to authority". I don't see any actual explanation for reasoning that human life starts at conception in here, so I am not going to address these arguments.

The perspective from my work in computer science is that consciousness needs a large number of neurons, and we don't get this large number until we've really made it into the second trimester. Since just about everything that makes human life different from animal life involves the conscious section of the brain, it therefore stands to reason that human life doesn't begin until there are enough neurons for it to begin, and it ends when there are no longer enough working neurons to sustain that consciousness.

Now, we may want to err on the safe side and simply assume that life begins at conception (or even before that), but I think we need some hard evidence before we have the government telling women what they can and cannot do with their bodies.

quote:

Do any of these medical doctor and scientists have any effect on your thinking?

No; please provide their arguments and reasoning for us to discuss and I will tell you if they have an effect on my thinking.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
How about a biblical argument to defend Mr. Obama stance on abortion?

quote:


ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc

Since I haven't seen a Biblical argument that abortion is wrong, why should I provide a biblical argument that abortion is ok?

quote:

I mean, hunting is Biblically wrong.

quote:

Please provide a Biblical argument as to why it's OK for a Christian to join the NRA.

quote:

We shouldn't have to look up verses in the Bible to explain why it's OK to drive a car, fire a weapon, use aluminum siding, or own bonds just because they weren't mentioned as being ok in the Bible.

quote:

Um, tracydolls? Sin is sin. We're not given a barometer of which sin is "worse"....all sin is the same in God's eyes...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Psalms274
The bible does make it clear that the life in the womb is indeed a person (Psalms 139 and Jeremiah 1) and it is also clear that murder is one of the big ten thou shalt nots. The word abortion is not in the bible, but abortion does kill a baby which is defined as murder.

quote:

... I am voting for the candidate who has enough courage to stand up and say "this is wrong, I will defend the innocent." Simply because the child is not yet born does not give a parent the right to end its life ... and the Courts stating it is okay, does not make it okay. Barack Obama is not the man with enough courage to stand for the innocent ... and he will not get my vote. I marvel at how people can rationalize something to make themselves feel it is okay to do something when they should know better. I have a dear friend who believes a woman should have a right to choose, yet finds abortion to be a horrible thing. That just does not make sense to me. No one should have the right to choose to end another's life, no matter how much of a sacrifice you have to make to ensure that life continues. That is why we have hit and run laws ...

quote:

Note: Science does now prove that life begins at conception, and the child in the womb is a real person.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tafkam
Well, we're two pages in and so far nobody has been able to Biblically defend The Chosen One on abortion.

quote:

ORIGINAL: henny

I don't want to take things off topic, but I'd be interested in hearing Christian McCain supporters' Biblical justification of voting for McCain when it comes to this issue, after all McCain does support abortion in cases of rape, incest, and to protect the life of the mother. He has also supported stem cell research funding in the past.

If you believe that life ALWAYS begins at conception, and that any destruction of this life at any point after conception is murder, then you would have to concede that McCain also supports the murder of innocents, even if his support is more limited than your typical democrat.

I know what you will say; that McCain supports the wider anti-abortion movement in other ways, and thus voting for him is justifiable as a "lesser of two evils." But I think what people forget is that a vote for "the lesser of two evils" is still a positive vote for evil -no matter how you try to qualify this. God does not parse murder. There are not "lesser murders" when it comes to the slaughter of innocent babies. An innocent child who is murdered is no less innocent and no less murdered depending on whether or not his mother was raped or got pregnant by her own actions.

So if you apply the logic used in the OP consistently, I think it would rule out voting for McCain as well.