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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 4:43:40 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1992
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
You all are putting an awful lot of words in Adam's mouth. His comment was:
quote:
The idolization of Sola Scriptura that appears in much of the Western Church makes no doctrinal discussion "easy".
Which isn't a rejection of SS it's merely a comment that it makes a doctrine discussion tough. As a matter of fact some of the most contentious discussions are one stop threaded such as women in the church.
Now one of the things mentioned in the OP has to do with whether or not acting like dogs, laughing like the 3 stooges or falling down have some kind of biblical basis. However to go that route (which I'm not but I'm using it as an example) where in the bible is Sunday School, Pastor's as leader of a church, elder boards as leaders of a church, daycares at church, churches investing in funds, standing still to do nothing but listen to sermons without giving any feedback or organs, pianos and choirs for a few examples? We use our own experience and the experiences of other christians to "justify" these. The charismatic experience, the extreme whatever experience that Earthless mentions and the "traditional" examples I have mentioned don't have their basis in SS or it is a hybrid of SS and experience which I guess makes it PS which is infinitely better than PMS?
Sunday School is a setting for teaching. Which musical instruments are used for worship is a stylistic choice (some of those instruments ARE mentioned in the bible in the context of worship).
The experiences we've been discussing are those directly attributed to gifting, movement, etc. of the Holy Spirit. And again, I ask...if you don't believe in either Sola Scriptura or Prima Scriptura, how do you judge whether the experience is of God or not? It's an honest question. I want to understand.
The whole reference to PMS...that's just silly, IMO. How can you compare the concepts of Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura to that? Or is it that you're dismissing and deriding Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura? Most protestant churches (except perhaps some new "movements") basically have one or the other as part of their core beliefs.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 4:45:39 PM
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stateofgrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
quote:
From the Desk of Steve Shultz - The Nature of (False) Prophecy
obama link
Oh, my goodness. They're admitting to posting contridicting prophecies, and saying that's the very nature of prophecy!
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 4:53:24 PM
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teclils
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
Honestly Earthless I think you just like to argue....
It's a message board; a forum for discussion and the exchange of ideas.
IMO a lot of the "discussion" is " if you don't beleive like I believe your wrong" we can discuss without all that...that is just my opinion
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 4:54:20 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
Honestly Earthless I think you just like to argue....
It's a message board; a forum for discussion and the exchange of ideas.
IMO a lot of the "discussion" is " if you don't beleive like I believe your wrong" we can discuss without all that...that is just my opinion
And you only get that from my posts?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 4:55:00 PM
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teclils
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no not just you....
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/29/2008 5:14:59 PM
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earthless
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Tragically, many who fall prey to the Counterfeit Revival are not moved in the least when its deceptions are exposed. The peer pressure that caused them to participate in the first place often keeps them from acknowledging that they were willing participants in a spiritual lie.
A classic case in point involves a well-known charismatic leader who participated in a Benny Hinn television extravaganza. Hinn was "slaying" his subjects "in the Spirit" when suddenly he moved in this man's direction, He stretched forth his hand and shouted, "In the mighty name of Jesus!" Immediately the man feel backward into the hands of a designated "catcher."
Later he confessed that his experience had nothing to do with the power of God. Peer pressure had caused him to fake his fall. Ironically, when he asked a cameraman to edit out the faked fall, the cameraman merely chuckled and told him it was common for people to fake it.
Like Hinn, leaders of the Counterfeit Revival bank on peer pressure to conform their prospects to predictable patterns. They urge them to follow the crowd rather than consider the consequences.
John Arnott, for example, tells his prospects that the greatest deception is not false doctrine but being among those who miss out on a move of God. In the United Kingdom he told followers:
"If you're going to be concerned about deception, then please be concerned about the greatest deception of all, in my opinion, is not to fall for teachings of a false prophet or fall for some, you know, wild goose chase of a rabbit trail out there or whatever and wake up in ten years that you've been deceived. In my opinion the greatest deception of all is to have a move of God come through and you not recognize it."
Arnott and his associates have carefully crafted their services to enhance the likelihood that Christians will cave in to the power of peer pressure.
They kick off their meetings with the testimonies of those who allegedly once feared deception but now embrace the exotic experiences of the Counterfeit Revival as a genuine move of God.
The "time of testimony" is followed by a "time of teaching" designed to further pressure people to work themselves into an altered state of consciousness.
The grand finale is a "time of ministry" in which virtually anything goes. The peer pressure to participate during the ministry time is so potent that even otherwise discerning Christians often end up casting caution to the wind.
During the "time of testimony," pastors and participants routinely testify that once they were blinded by the devil but now their eyes have been opened.
Once they doubted that God could be in such bizarre manifestations as pawing the ground like an angry bull but now they "know" experimentally that God often moves in mysterious ways.
Often, as the initiated give their testimonies, they model the effects of the manifestations. While one Counterfeit Revivalist was testifying to the power of God upon her life, she began bending violently at the waist. It wasn't long before people in the pews were mimicking her strange behavior.
Her testimony gave way to a time of teaching. As, she walked back to her seat (still bending at the waist), a Vineyard pastor began reciting his rendition of Paul's experience on the road to Damascus.
He hammered home the notion that there were two categories of believers: the initiated and the uninitiated.
Before God knocked Paul off his horse, he was an uninitiated Pharisee. Thereafter he joined the ranks of those who had experienced the power of God firsthand.
The pastor's message is cleverly designed to pressure people into becoming initiated like Paul rather than remaining uninitiated like the Pharisees. The "time of testimony" and the "time of teaching" place enormous peer pressure on people to participate during the "time of ministry."
Leaders of the Counterfeit Revival are well aware that people in crowds are prone to believe that the behavior of their peers is a standard that should not be questioned. They further reinforce this proclivity by intimating that to resist these manifestations is tantamount to resisting the Holy Spirit.
According to Larry Randolph, speaking at the Toronto Airport Vineyard, "the neutral ground is dissipating by the hour. You can't stand in the middle anymore and say, 'Well I don't know. Maybe it's God, maybe it's not. You're going to get rolled over."
In Randolph's estimation the song the Holy Spirit is now singing is "I'm a steam roller, baby, and I'm going to roll right over you."
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 12:44:20 PM
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drk6
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Today we see a lot of fakes. If you would like some insight into some of the revivals of old there is a great website dedicated to the teachings of Dr. J Edwin Orr, who studied and taught on revival. It's www.jedwinorr.com.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 8:05:46 PM
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turtleman
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I have been to many diffrrent churches. In fact I was brought up Southern Baptist, had an uncle that was a Holiness preacher, I also attended the Church Of God, now I attend Freedom Christian Center. I have seen people touched by God cry, dance, shout, fallout, and other things. However I have never seen someone laugh hysterically, paw the carpet, chicken walk, or get down on all fours like a dog. Please enlighten me as to where you saw this occur. I was going to sit this one out but, the above got my curiousity up.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 8:17:16 PM
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rlj
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I'm cutting out 2 points that I think we're important:
quote:
Which musical instruments are used for worship is a stylistic choice (some of those instruments ARE mentioned in the bible in the context of worship).
quote:
There is a purpose to Sunday School, pastors as leaders, elder boards, etc.
Quite true in that worship styles are a choice just like church leadership. However how often do you hear christians argue about the "proper way" to worship? "No drums, no loud music, no sitting still in your pews, etc. etc." and everyone has some verse to show for it- God is a God of order, Psalms say praise the Lord with drums, etc. As for the latter comment some christians will argue that Sunday School isn't in the Bible, that Pastors shouldn't be the leader because they are just a teacher, Elder Boards shouldn't be elected because there are strict things from the bible etc. All of these pros and cons to these basic issues have biblical roots based on peoples interpretation of scripture. How many of the great leaders in church history were inspired by the scriptures (Sola Scriptura) yet can contradict each other?
This is what Adam meant when he said the "idolization of Sola Scriptura makes discussion difficult" which is what I was commenting on because I at least think I understand how and why he'd make that comment. Personnally for most of the things I see in churches and that I mentioned I think the bible doesn't specifically say giving us some freedom to make decisions for ourselves how we worship. I don't see any condemnation of the charismatic way and I don't see any condemnation of the traditional way. There needs to be some condemnation on the lazy charismatic worship leaders who won't re-arrange hymns so we can sing them more but that's a different topic. ; )
quote:
What is the purpose of beign on all fours and barking like a dog?
If I could answer that one I'd tell you. Though I haven't seen it I have seen holy laughing and I can't tell you the why on that one either. I think the dogs barking thing is silly, it's stupid, if someone wants to do it whatever. I don't equate it to satanism, mysticism or any other ism- HOWEVER it has crossed my mind that Toronto went far to help bring us Lakeland.
Yes I was being absurd with the acronyms. ; )
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This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 8:31:48 PM
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rlj
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quote:
"If you're going to be concerned about deception, then please be concerned about the greatest deception of all, in my opinion, is not to fall for teachings of a false prophet or fall for some, you know, wild goose chase of a rabbit trail out there or whatever and wake up in ten years that you've been deceived. In my opinion the greatest deception of all is to have a move of God come through and you not recognize it."
That quote is over ten years old. The original revival has pretty much died down and off which had everyone looking for the next big thing which was Bentley. The Larry Arnold quote is 14 years old. This is all old news what is happening in the now that people need to be prepared for?
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 10:05:29 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
Please enlighten me as to where you saw this occur. I was going to sit this one out but, the above got my curiousity up.
Didn't read all of my posts? For starters: The Brownsville Revival, Lakeland/Todd Bentley, Toronto Airport Vineyard, Rodney Howard-Browne services, Kenneth Copeland services, Kenneth Hagin services, Benny Hinn services/conferences, etc..
In the official one stop Word of Faith thread (and many others, including this one) a host of video documentation has been provided for your own viewing/study.
Please let me know if you have any other questions.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/30/2008 10:07:22 PM
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earthless
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
"If you're going to be concerned about deception, then please be concerned about the greatest deception of all, in my opinion, is not to fall for teachings of a false prophet or fall for some, you know, wild goose chase of a rabbit trail out there or whatever and wake up in ten years that you've been deceived. In my opinion the greatest deception of all is to have a move of God come through and you not recognize it."
That quote is over ten years old. The original revival has pretty much died down and off which had everyone looking for the next big thing which was Bentley. The Larry Arnold quote is 14 years old. This is all old news what is happening in the now that people need to be prepared for?
The quotes may be "old" but:
a) they have not been retracted nor repented of
b) many of the Counterfeit Revival leaders that spoke them are still in operation today
And why it a needed topic now? Because of the recent spat with Todd Bentley/Lakeland.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 6:36:13 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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quote:
So are you saying that the Bible's core truth's are not absolute? That experience and emotion (regardless of their biblical grounding or occultic connection) can be and are valid?
Have you allowed political correctness and subjectivism to seep into your biblical view? Forgoing the inflammatory accusations... I am not saying anything about the Bible's core truthes (plural). I am saying you our understanding of them can be very much flawed. That is how three people can read the exact same book and come to four completely different understandings of it.
Considering also that the vast majority of the Bible is experience and emotion, yes, they can be very valid. That is how an Egyptian pastor can get on a stage and proclaim that entire villages in his nation are coming to salvation because everyone in the village has the same dream of Christ in the same night. So yes, experience and emotion can be valid. Are they always? Of course not... but that doesn't mean they never are either. Honestly? Sometimes we are too "black and white" about stuff that is very not black or white.quote:
Honestly Earthless I think you just like to argue.... Wouldn't be the first or the last... but I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt on this one.quote:
If prophets ceased why didn't the apostles just come right out and say "soon prophets will cease and you will no that there are no prophecies" instead of "there will be false prophets".
Experience trumps "Sola Scriptura" when it comes to cessation. Very good point. Nice Animaniacs avatar as well...quote:
For one who doesn't follow your views, please explain what constitutes making an idol of Sola Scriptura and why this is limited to the Western Church?
Thanks Pat, you ain't the only one who doesn't follow my views. I guess that is what truly makes them mine, eh?
Making an idol of Sola Scriptura is actually quite easy. Specifically looking deeper the "churchese" answer of "the Word of God", ask yourself what the Bible is. The answer will tell you much about yourself. Sola Scriptura is a very valid piece of doctrine, and is very necessary for the formation of new doctrine. However, if our understanding of Scripture is wrong, we have to be willing to alter our stance. I can't tell you how often I have had to go back to the drawing board on my theology because it didn't work in real life. That is why I refuse to follow the WoF crowd in the "Name it Claim it" stuff. It doesn't work outside of pure theory. I had to give up cessationism (which looked very Biblical at the time) when I saw somebody healed of a chronic illness. What happens when Sola Scriptura becomes an idol is that we hold to our doctrine so tightly that we never change our belief. In our current context, people believe that convulsions cannot be the Holy Spirit because it is never specifically endorsed by Scripture... forgetting that it is never forbidden either (there is an explanation for 1 Corinthians 14). "But what about modesty?!" How about when God had Elijah wander around naked and barefoot for three years? God is way wackier than we give him credit for. Admittedly, this is more a theosophical argument than a Biblical one, so I'm not that worried about it.
So, compare the Sola Scriptura mantra to the church in an emerging nation such as Mozambique. They haven't been affected by the stoic resolve of Christianity from more developed nations such as the US... they are also experiencing deep seated revival. Yes, people are getting saved, healed, raised from the dead, delivered of demonic oppression... what a difference, eh? I don't particularly care what someone thinks the Bible says about miracles when a dead person sits up at the name of Jesus. I have a new favorite quote from a book that I just finished reading... "If doctrinal purity were the sole key for vibrant spirituality, then the church in Asia Minor, due to the church councils, should have logically produced a vibrant church. However, the people became spiritually moribund and fell sway to those championing the cause of Islam." (For the curious, the book is called "Theology in the context of World Christianity" by Timothy Tennent).quote:
Given that comment by Adam, I really doubt that he holds to Prima Scriptura, either, since that view holds that experiences, tradition, etc. can be valid but everything has to be evaluated according to its fidelity to what the bible teaches. Considering that that is a blind leap of faith, I can assure you that you are absolutely mistaken. Everything has to be evaluated by SCRIPTURE... not someone else's understanding of Scripture.quote:
So, Adam, do your teachers at IHOP reject both Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura? Rather than attempting to shift the topic of debate, how about keeping the pointed remarks to yourself. No, none of the teachers here reject Sola Scriptura or Prima Scriptura. I am speaking on my behalf, no one else's. What you are forgetting is that I am not rejecting Sola Scriptura... I am rejecting the Idolization of Sola Scriptura that clings to a book more than God. If you are willing to claim that I am addressing you in that statement, feel free to do so.quote:
Do groups like IHOP take a position along the lines of Roman Catholicism, where one submits to the interpretation of a leader over private interpretation of scripture? No. If you intend to share a dream or prophetic unction publicly, you do need to submit it to the leadership for evaluation. However, Biblical interpretation is up to you.quote:
There is a purpose to Sunday School, pastors as leaders, elder boards, etc.
What is the purpose of being on all fours and barking like a dog? Why would God encourage us to act like something that is "lower" than people when throughout His word we are commanded to emulate Jesus. What is the purpose of God loving us? Don't dismiss that question, it's important.
You ask why God would encourage us to act like something "lower" than people... forgetting that God also takes great pleasure in humbling the proud. What if, merely to remind us that we are not bigger than Him, he caused us to do something that we would deem "undignified"? David danced before the Ark of the Covenant like a drunkard, and when his wife complained, God closed her womb. I'm not going to infer any significance from that other than the fact that David, out of extreme devotion that would have gotten him a hearing before the deacons at any "respectable" church, felt no condmenation being extremely undignified before God. So why should a modern Christian? It seems that I am not the one concerned about being politically correct. We have a very American idea that because we are Christians we are supposed to be living "better" than the unbeliever (see how well dressed we are, see how in control we are, see how respectable we are, etc.) and yet you have David telling his wife, "I will become even more undignified than this." In Acts, 3000 people were saved in one day because two people died in the middle of service... in America, you would have to shut down the church, submit to investigations, and get cast out of your denomination.
I believe it was Christian rapper John Reuben who said, "The pioneers have settled in, a perfect blend of progress and pale skin."quote:
I don't believe acting this way brings any glory to God. Neither did David's wife. I make no comparisons beyond that.quote:
a forum for discussion and the exchange of ideas. "Exchange of ideas... better known as soviet code for 'Pardon me whilst I pontificate'." -- Reaganquote:
The whole reference to PMS...that's just silly, IMO. How can you compare the concepts of Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura to that? Or is it that you're dismissing and deriding Sola Scriptura and Prima Scriptura? I believe it is called............. a "joke"?quote:
During the "time of testimony," pastors and participants routinely testify that once they were blinded by the devil but now their eyes have been opened.
To which I would ask if that were any more extreme or extoic than the antithetical response that they are currently blinded or decieved by the devil, or being hypnotized en masse? Your argument doesn't hold up because your explanation against it is just as biased and "out there" as what you claim to be disproving. The logician in me is non-plussed.quote:
The pastor's message is cleverly designed to pressure people into becoming initiated like Paul rather than remaining uninitiated like the Pharisees. The "time of testimony" and the "time of teaching" place enormous peer pressure on people to participate during the "time of ministry." Which differs from the public proclamation of Salvation Testimonies how? Oh yes... those people look goofy, I get it. We are fine with the idea of peer pressure getting someone saved, but spiritualistic experience? Now we have issues... (/end snarkiness)quote:
Today we see a lot of fakes. No doubt there. No argument there either. In the End Times, we are guaranteed to see many more. However, there have always been fakes, frauds, and charlatans. The argument that "well, a lot of people are faking" really doesn't negate the premise at all. If you do some reading into the Great Awakening (as in, reading the correspondance and journals of guys like Edwards and Finney... not the Dummies book) you will find descriptions a plenty that mirror pretty spookily the kind of stuff that we see now in the Charismatic church. So I not really that concerned about the "fakers" argument.quote:
This is what Adam meant when he said the "idolization of Sola Scriptura makes discussion difficult" which is what I was commenting on because I at least think I understand how and why he'd make that comment. Personnally for most of the things I see in churches and that I mentioned I think the bible doesn't specifically say giving us some freedom to make decisions for ourselves how we worship. I don't see any condemnation of the charismatic way and I don't see any condemnation of the traditional way. There needs to be some condemnation on the lazy charismatic worship leaders who won't re-arrange hymns so we can sing them more but that's a different topic. ; ) Very true, and heartily agreed. Thank you for restating my, apparently, confusing point of view.
Adam
PS. I'm specifically avoiding the Lakeland comments. Why? Because (A) Doctrinal purity is not a necessity for God to pour out the Spirit, (B) I had a friend's sister with an unknown terminal illness (as in, the doctors had no clue what was wrong) that was 100% healed at Lakeland, and (C) I can't say as I agree with everything that was said or done there not only because I wasn't there but also because I don't agree with Todd Bently on everything either. So yes, I'm Switzerland on that one... if you try to argue about it with me, you will not get an answer that you like.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 3:23:32 PM
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teclils
Posts: 110
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Frankly I am tired of hearing what Man has to say is truth! I am waiting on the LORD to tell me what is Truth and what is error.
just because you use a scripture and make it sound good to back up what You want it to say doesn't mean that is Truth...
I think now is the time we need to seek the LORD for confirmation on Truth and read HIS WORD and Study HIS WORD and wait on HIM for the Correct interpetation......
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 5:57:28 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 1992
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Making an idol of Sola Scriptura is actually quite easy. Specifically looking deeper the "churchese" answer of "the Word of God", ask yourself what the Bible is. The answer will tell you much about yourself. Sola Scriptura is a very valid piece of doctrine, and is very necessary for the formation of new doctrine. However, if our understanding of Scripture is wrong, we have to be willing to alter our stance.
Thank you for clearing up what you meant by that statement, Adam.
I would counter that what you describe is not someone making an idol of Sola Scriptura but simply someone who doesn't understand the full scope of biblical teaching on a subject.
The phrase "making an idol of Sola Scriptura" could come across as a hostile and demeaning statement. Much better, IMO to describe what you just described. Since God has given you the ability to be articulate, why not use that ability and avoid coming across as disrespectful? However, the word "churchese" is pushing things back to disrespectful. I can understand that word. BTDT 20 years ago with PDI, when the leadership was fond of telling us how the "institutional church" had it all wrong and we were now "authentic" NT Christianity. In retrospect I see how the use of that language puts up unnecessary barriers to communication.
I will likely have more to say about your specific examples later, but the frozen pizza is ready now and I need to get it out of the oven before it burns.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 6:28:25 PM
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rlj
Posts: 2136
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quote:
I will likely have more to say about your specific examples later, but the frozen pizza is ready now and I need to get it out of the oven before it burns.
Now that would be sacrilege. :X
_____________________________
-Roger
This is who I'm voting for. He is from the same party I voted for last time. This is consistent with my belief in the failure of the two party system and my disgust with it.
http://www.baldwin08.com/#
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 6:32:59 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6091
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rlj
quote:
I will likely have more to say about your specific examples later, but the frozen pizza is ready now and I need to get it out of the oven before it burns.
Now that would be sacrilege. :X
Rank utter heresy.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 6:45:37 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3583
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LOL, that is funny, I am sorry. I mean no disrespect, I just needed a giggle.
quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
I have been to many diffrrent churches. In fact I was brought up Southern Baptist, had an uncle that was a Holiness preacher, I also attended the Church Of God, now I attend Freedom Christian Center. I have seen people touched by God cry, dance, shout, fallout, and other things. However I have never seen someone laugh hysterically, paw the carpet, chicken walk, or get down on all fours like a dog. Please enlighten me as to where you saw this occur. I was going to sit this one out but, the above got my curiousity up.
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Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 8:59:08 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2751
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
I will likely have more to say about your specific examples later, but the frozen pizza is ready now and I need to get it out of the oven before it burns.
would this count as a burnt offering?
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 11:34:37 PM
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turtleman
Posts: 63
Joined: 7/14/2007
Status: offline
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Earthless I have observed Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, and other services. Again I saw no chicken walk, pawing of the carpet, or anyone getting down on all fours like a dog. Give me specifics if you don't agree with them that is fine not all Christians agree anyway. Just look at all the different denominations and the way they interpet scripture. As for the things you describe dates, services, and video links would be helpful.
_____________________________
just a few simple thoughts
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 11:43:47 PM
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lightshineon
Posts: 3583
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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Today we visited a new church. We sit behind a young man doing the chiken walk, and jerks during praise and worship. I prayed "oh dear Lord why did I pick here to sit." My husband does not do freaky deaky. Come to find out he was mentally challenged, my husband said " I am not offended he was just loving Jesus his way." The young man came to me and said " I did not hug you" So he hugged me. His dad was trying to make him behave. My point, it was ok for this young man , but, remember he is challenged so God I am sure recieved it. My husband would have been upset if someone of sound mind was doing these things.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 8/31/2008 11:52:56 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turtleman
Earthless I have observed Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Joyce Meyer, and other services. Again I saw no chicken walk, pawing of the carpet, or anyone getting down on all fours like a dog. Give me specifics if you don't agree with them that is fine not all Christians agree anyway. Just look at all the different denominations and the way they interpet scripture. As for the things you describe dates, services, and video links would be helpful.
Benny Hinn has said that each person in the Godhead has a body and is a Trinity themselves. So there are 9 people in the Godhead according to him.
They all teach that Christians are supposed to be rich and never sick. If you are it's because you are sinning. They believe that simply by saying I getting a cold you are calling a curse on yourself. You gotta remember that your words have power man. You say I blue in the face and your face is gonna turn blue.
They all preach a Jesus that died on the cross so you will not be poor and never sick. They preach a Jesus that went to hell where He was tortured by demons and Satan. Had a battle where He got the keys of life and death from Satan. Oh Jesus also dragged Satan by his chin through the halls of hell showing off his victory and became the first born-again man.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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Benny Hinn Let the Bodies Hit the Floor. - 8/31/2008 11:59:52 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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LiveLeak
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Benny Hinn Let the Bodies Hit the Floor. - 9/1/2008 6:25:11 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 979
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
I would counter that what you describe is not someone making an idol of Sola Scriptura but simply someone who doesn't understand the full scope of biblical teaching on a subject.
The phrase "making an idol of Sola Scriptura" could come across as a hostile and demeaning statement. Much better, IMO to describe what you just described. Since God has given you the ability to be articulate, why not use that ability and avoid coming across as disrespectful? However, the word "churchese" is pushing things back to disrespectful. Yes, God has given me the ability to be articulate. Just as much as He has given everyone here the ability to (A) think, and (B) be graceful in their communication. So I guess we would all be amazed at how uncommon all three are, eh?
In my articulation, I said precisely what I meant. It is very possible for Sola Scriptura to become as much of an idol as, in some circles anyway, the Bible itself has become. The phrase "churchese" is mere shorthand for the entirely unique lexicon of those who have grown up in church, or spend much of their time there. Just like I would say that most people in my country speak "American" rather than "English", "churchese" is a dialect of the language of our nation that has many unique idioms, figures of speech, and alternative titles. Simply put, the language of churchgoing Americans differs so greatly from non-churchgoing Americans that it is a fully developed dialect.
If my use of language offends you, you have my most sincere apologies for your offense. However, in this instance I will stand by what I said... because I meant it.
As for your comment about someone not understanding the "full scope" of Biblical teaching on a subject, your argument is predicated on the idea that if you know enough Scripture you are guaranteed to have good doctrine. As such, your presupposition is not true. I can memorize all four Gospels without believing that is God, that He ever existed, or that the Bible is true. This is why I feel quite safe saying that the doctrine of Sola Scriptura can be an idol unto itself. We have to be flexible enough that if something happens in the real world that challenges our doctrine (especially if it is something that the Bible doesn't condemn), we can alter our doctrine. If that is the limit of your objection to what I said, then I doubt very much that we will enjoy this conversation for very long.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: :: Counterfeit Revival - 9/1/2008 7:12:31 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6091
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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