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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/26/2008 7:35:15 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ellie-Mae
Sooo... you saying that some people should never be born because their parents have sin in their lives?
I didn't read that from bluestone's posts at all. I understand large families can become very defensive because of other people's burdensome assumptions about them, but I think she was mostly talking about practicing fiscal responsibility, not being sinless.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/26/2008 7:44:05 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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But to say that some shouldn't be born because their parents are not fiscally responsible is...
Well, I would have a hard time wishing a child had not been born just because they are considered by some to be a burden instead of a blessing. It is sad.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/26/2008 7:50:17 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ellie-Mae
But to say that some shouldn't be born because their parents are not fiscally responsible is...
Yeah, except that's not what she was saying. That's what you're hearing.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/26/2008 7:51:00 PM
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rcorson
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quote:
I have had to deal with too many mooching families that refuse to be responsible . Then the low income father dies, and the mom has zero skills to make a living, and the situation goes from bad to worse.
If you can support them, fine. If you can't, don't. It is not the place of the government, or any one else to keep up your household.
And needing short term help from the government, or occasional help from a church is not the same as making it a lifestyle.
I'm 100% with Bluestone on this. There's a big difference in families that have fallen on hard times and need a bit of help versus the families that refuse to help themselves. This may offend a few people, so I apologize in advance, but if you are a stay at home mom or dad (which I'm all for if that's for you and your family), then I think that you should continue to go to school or learn a trade that you are passionate about so that in the event your husband loses his job and struggles to find one, then you have something you can fall back on if needed. Being proactive about this will help prevent or reduce the need for government assistance.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/26/2008 7:55:57 PM
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NotDoneYet
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcorson
quote:
I have had to deal with too many mooching families that refuse to be responsible . Then the low income father dies, and the mom has zero skills to make a living, and the situation goes from bad to worse.
If you can support them, fine. If you can't, don't. It is not the place of the government, or any one else to keep up your household.
And needing short term help from the government, or occasional help from a church is not the same as making it a lifestyle.
I'm 100% with Bluestone on this. There's a big difference in families that have fallen on hard times and need a bit of help versus the families that refuse to help themselves. This may offend a few people, so I apologize in advance, but if you are a stay at home mom or dad (which I'm all for if that's for you and your family), then I think that you should continue to go to school or learn a trade that you are passionate about so that in the event your husband loses his job and struggles to find one, then you have something you can fall back on if needed. Being proactive about this will help prevent or reduce the need for government assistance.
AMEN!!!!
As a former SAHM with no real job skills who found herself sleeping in a minivan after my now X decided he didn't want to be married anymore...I am absolutely in favor of having some sort of trade or job skill to keep you going during the hard times!!!!
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 10:33:02 AM
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Kerryannism
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I agree - its all about knowing ones limit, emotionally, physically or financially. There are Mom's with children who should not have had children. Some females do not possess the skills to be a proper Mom. That doesn't make them bad people - they are just not Mom material. I respect women who recognize children are not for them.
Then there is the other type - who have children for other various reasons, do not attend to them, cook for them, or provide regular meals, provide emotional support or do anything their heart desires, unless it is visible to others, then they go into what they think is full Mom mode.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 10:37:14 AM
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bluestone
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A visectomy is a wonderful thing.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 11:42:26 AM
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Kat_D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
If you can afford to maintain a famly without using my tax money or ask for help from the church, have as many as you want.
If the taxpayer has to take the burden, or you are running to the church for handouts continually, you need to STOP.
Amen!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluestone
If you can support them, fine. If you can't, don't. It is not the place of the government, or any one else to keep up your household.
And needing short term help from the government, or occasional help from a church is not the same as making it a lifestyle.
Amen!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluestone
Family size has a lot to do with it. It multiplies the problem. Any one can have a "give me" attitude, but for some reason there are huge families in churches think they are entitled to charity because of their refusal to use any means of birth planning or birth control. As though having a bunch of kids makes them more holy.
Amen!
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluestone
A visectomy is a wonderful thing.
Amen...with one correction, it's vAsectomy! 
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 1:04:00 PM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
I try pretty hard not to take advice from people who are cleary out of touch with the real world.
Anyway, since I don't think humans are created against God's will, I don't think any family is too big. (ill-taken-care of, yes, but too big, no)
What she said! 
Dysfunction happens in all sizes of families. Plenty of two-child families have parents who are trying to live vicariously through their children--just look at children's sports and academics.  Entitlement happens in all sizes of families. Abuse and neglect happen in all sizes of families. And I don't buy for a minute that humans are some sort of "cancer" on the earth as ZPG'ers believe.
I also believe wholeheartedly that even children born into large, poor, dysfunctional families (even though that would not be representative of all or even most large families) can and do grow up to be decent, hard-working, tax-paying, God-honoring folks who's lives have a great purpose from God in the same way that children from small, wealthy, loving, "perfect" families can grow up and be holy terrors.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 1:25:41 PM
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bluestone
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I am not making an asumption. I see it and hear it quite often.
I don't know any large families, other than one Catholic family that are not on welfare, WIC, food stamps, and live in utter poverty due to lack of education or motivation.
Refuse birth control all you want, but don't ask the hard working tax payers who are responsible to pick up the tab.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 1:52:49 PM
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LaurainAL
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What is ZPG?
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 2:00:36 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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Zero population growth
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 2:49:53 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I am not making an asumption. I see it and hear it quite often.
I don't know any large families, other than one Catholic family that are not on welfare, WIC, food stamps, and live in utter poverty due to lack of education or motivation.
Refuse birth control all you want, but don't ask the hard working tax payers who are responsible to pick up the tab.
So you "see it and hear it all the time" and yet you only know one large family who isn't on any aid... Are they smaller families then that are abusing the system?
Personally, all the families I personally know that are on state/federal aid all have less then 3 kids OR their husbands are serving in the military. None of the large ones(and we know 5-6 large families) are on any form of aid and none of them are impoverished. They might not have all their *wants*, but all their needs are certainly being met.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:02:34 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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That is a bad situation, and I have encountered a person like that. Unfortunately she is my own family... However, I don't think it's the norm for large families.
quote:
She now feels God is punishing her and her husband by leaving them childless.
That is actually one of the more normal feelings that accompanies IF. I don't see how saying that you trust God for your fertility is also saying that people who are IF aren't trusting. If you stop using birth control and won't use ART then isn't that also trusting God?
I digress...
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:03:51 PM
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bluestone
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
I am not making an asumption. I see it and hear it quite often.
I don't know any large families, other than one Catholic family that are not on welfare, WIC, food stamps, and live in utter poverty due to lack of education or motivation.
Refuse birth control all you want, but don't ask the hard working tax payers who are responsible to pick up the tab.
So you "see it and hear it all the time" and yet you only know one large family who isn't on any aid... Are they smaller families then that are abusing the system?
Personally, all the families I personally know that are on state/federal aid all have less then 3 kids OR their husbands are serving in the military. None of the large ones(and we know 5-6 large families) are on any form of aid and none of them are impoverished. They might not have all their *wants*, but all their needs are certainly being met.
I work with the church foodbank . I have also served on the church board, and we meet to decide what to do when people ask for financial help.
Some of you know that I work in the deathcare industry, and I also see families when a death occurs. The death of a husband in these families is a horror story in most cases.
Most I know that have under three kids and are on aid are single mothers who just won't stop being sexually active.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:04:58 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
I don't know any large families, other than one Catholic family that are not on welfare, WIC, food stamps, and live in utter poverty due to lack of education or motivation.
 hi...just wanted to introduce myself to you....I am Sarah...we have a large family and are not on gov't assistance even though we do fit the $ requirements for it, we live in our own house (buying) in a decent neighborhood...definitely not in poverty. My hubby (and I) choose to live on not a lot of money, not because of lack of education or motivation, quite the opposite in fact. His motivation and conviction is to serve our country in the military. There is a lot we have given up with that conviction. We have managed to not be on gov't assistance though, and not be in debt either, which a lot of families these days (whether large or small) can't say is true about themselves. Like Ryanne said, we may not have all our wants, but our needs are well covered.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:12:16 PM
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bluestone
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hi back! I support the military and their sacrafices 100%.
As I stated earlier, if you can afford many kids without handouts, do what you want in that regard.
I am not talking about your kids not being able to have x box or cell phones, I am talking about electricity, food, and necessities without someone else picking up the tab.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:14:24 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
Most I know that have under three kids and are on aid are single mothers who just won't stop being sexually active.
I guess I should introduce myself, too. I have two kids and don't believe in birth control. I'm also a single mom, and at the moment, am on food stamps. I have only been 'sexually active' with my ex husband...who left us.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:19:25 PM
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bluestone
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I was also a single mother with two kids, when my husband cheated, quit his job , we divorced, and I decided to go back to school. I had a decent job, but went to mortuary school part time for an additional two years. Work, and school, and was able to make it. If I had not had my four year degree first, it would have taken much longer to finish mortuary school part time.
I now am part owner in a related business, and my kids are grown.
I know what sacrafice is.
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RE: When is a family too big. - 8/27/2008 3:25:08 PM
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bluestone
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I take no offense. I don't think I have a tainted view of large families. Just those that continue to grow and can not feed their kids without help from the outside.. I am not against large families provided my taxes don't go up due to your choice.
My parents had four of us. I don't think that is really large, but we were all taken care of. At one point my mom had to go to work for a couple of years when my Dad's work changed, but they worked hard and recovered.
Can you imagine if the Duggars did not own a real estate company, did not have big income? Who would provide?
Once again: have all the kids you want that you can provide for.
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And I wonder how you know their motivation is to be "holier than thou"? You say "as though"--that's generally the mark of an assumption. 
