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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 8:06:59 PM
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SonInMe1
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It is...music. Not fundamental to your relationship with God.
Is this a paid position? How was the music director hired? What was his qualifications?
Matthew 18 is the place to start. Instead of going to the pastor, go to the music director.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 8:50:16 PM
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missourinative
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Yes, the music director is hired. His qualifications are that he is a very good praise and worship leader; however, that is almost the extent of his ability.
He has been put into a position that is way beyond him; so he has become verbally abusive to anyone who asks questions.
This has resulted in a lot of confusion. No one knows their part, it changes from service to rehearsal. We never do a song the same way twice. He cannot read music at all -that would not be a problem except that he publically humiliates those who can read music, to cover for his own lack.
Choir practice is very demoralizing - it involves a lot of yelling and blaming others for his lack of preparation. He writes nothing down, not even piano notes to remember what he has taught. He has a terrible habit of flipping parts, too; then becomes angry when anyone comments on it. He accuses them of trying to make him look bad in front of the choir, and becomes insulting to them in front of others.
It has resulted in a "every man for himself" atmosphere. There is no camaradarie, no team spirit. Everyone just tries to avoid drawing his anger. There are lots of rolled eyes and furtive looks, even from those who know next to nothing about music. No one on the platform smiles or seems to be having a good time. That cannot be good for our services.
I think he is very frustrated himself over the whole mess. However, that is not an excuse.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 9:25:06 PM
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missourinative
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That is certainly an interesting viewpoint.......
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 9:29:24 PM
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missourinative
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There are quite a few scriptures referencing "singers" in the Bible. You can check right here on crosswalk.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 9:44:10 PM
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missourinative
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Where does it say that choirs are not worshipful?
I said nothing about our choir being entertainment - they are considered a ministry in our church - they help to usher in a worshipful atmosphere into the service.
I also did not say anything about the choir members being good singers. Many of them are not, and just "make a joyful noise". However, I would assume that the LEADER - if there is one - should be skillful and workable and have a servant's heart, wouldn't you think?
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 10:22:12 PM
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crankius
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BibleL7
Yes much is said of singing to the Lord throughout the Bible and all are to sing His praises just not anywhere that only those considered good singers should join together and only they should sing nor does it say we are to sing to entertain it says we as a group shold sing praises to the Lord in fact many times it is called making a joyful noise to the Lord. Still nothing of choirs entertaining
Absolutely we are all to sing songs and hymns and spiritual songs to the Lord. This doesn't, however, mean that skilled musicians are not useful to the Lord.
Read 1 Chron 15
16 Then David spoke to the leaders of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers accompanied by instruments of music, stringed instruments, harps, and cymbals, by raising the voice with resounding joy.
22 Chenaniah, leader of the Levites, was instructor in charge of the music, because he was skillful;
And there are other instances in the OT where skilled musicians were used by the Lord for worship.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 10:26:40 PM
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crankius
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Bible,
Do you read music? Are you trained in music? Do you have music skills? I'm asking because I honestly want to know.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 10:40:41 PM
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crankius
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I think it is important to appreciate and value the talents, skills, and abilities God has given to us for the benefit of the entire Body of Christ. Because someone has talents and they are using them for the Lord doesn't necessarily mean they are arrogant, prideful, etc.
This worship leader apparently has some skills, but from what the OP has posted he seems to be greatly lacking in humility. A true leader is a servant. Jesus made it clear that those who shepherd in the church are to be servants.
If he had true humility, he would recognize his shortcomings, and care more about the health of this Body than his own position.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 11:14:31 PM
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bluestone
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A music director that can't read music? good grief. no wonder the musicians are frustrated.
Singing on key does not a good music leader make.
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I need Christ. Not something that resembles Christ.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 11:18:08 PM
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crankius
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Exactly, blue. And probably, there are numerous lay people who would be excellent at helping the choir, but because they weren't "hired", they aren't used.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 11:30:54 PM
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crankius
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Bible,
If it was the intent of the pastor and the music leader to eliminate the choir, then you are attributing to them a passive-aggressive, back-handed way of leadership. If leadership wants the music in the church to change, they need to communicate this clearly to the people and pray about it and study the scriptures and discuss it. (It is good to know you don't think choirs are Biblical--this helps clarify why you defend the leader and accuse the choir members.)
This man was hired as the music leader at a church with a large choir. Was leading the choir part of his job description, Missourinative?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 11:37:24 PM
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sisrev
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As a sometime singer who has absolutely no formal training and cannot read a lick of music--I can sing almost any harmony, strictly by ear, and it pains me to hear bad harmonies. Or have the rythym be off, or to be next to someone clapping off beat. Most of the time I try to just close my eyes and shut out everything around me, and enter into praise & worship in my own spirit. But sometimes, that is just too difficult to do. The last church I attended had really really terrible music & singing, and I have literally gotten up and gone out and sat in an empty classroom until the singing was over.
It is terribly distracting for the music and singing to be bad--it's one thing when you know that everyone is doing the best they can with the gifts they've been given, but for the leader to not only not give his best, but actually prevent others from doing so, is a terrible reflection of his (lack of) leadership abilities, not to mention his musically deficiencies.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/26/2008 11:59:21 PM
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missourinative
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He is the "Minister of Music" in our church. He teaches/directs choir, holds musician rehearsals, and leads praise and worship in every service.
Personally, I have no problem with a music minister who cannot read music as long as they have an ear for music, and can match the harmonies to the chords. Unfortunately for us, that is not the case.
It also creates a problem for the musicians who do read music. He does not defer to them when he doesn't know exactly what is supposed to be played; instead, he resorts to verbally berating them; most of the time, no one knows exactly why he is angry. When you are confused about what he is asking, you are not allowed to ask a question, for fear of incurring his wrath.
I am really not understanding the poster who is accusing us of thinking we are better than the choir director. Our choir members do not have to audition to be in choir. Anyone who feels led to be a part is allowed to do so.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 12:04:50 AM
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upNORTder
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Perhaps you should follow the lead of government and big buisiness and suggest to the minister that he "promote" the director into a more "hands off" supervisory role where he can't do much damage.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 10:15:50 AM
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missourinative
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I guess when you see things from that perspective, we would have to say that it is not a sin to have sex in public with your spouse.
After all, it is not addressed in the Bible......... 
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 10:16:10 AM
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crankius
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Bible,
Examine post 34.
Regardless, whether choirs are Biblical or not is not the topic of this thread. The topic of this thread is how to handle a bad leader.
Maybe you should start a new topic in the church folder about choirs.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 10:19:29 AM
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missourinative
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It is up to the Worship leader to lead the congregation into worship
Where in the bible is "worship leader" mentioned? So where is the directive for him to lead the congregation?
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 10:38:17 AM
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crankius
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quote:
He does not defer to them when he doesn't know exactly what is supposed to be played; instead, he resorts to verbally berating them; most of the time, no one knows exactly why he is angry. When you are confused about what he is asking, you are not allowed to ask a question, for fear of incurring his wrath.
So, once a person has addressed his anger one-on-one, does he say he is sorry? Does he feel bad later for what he has done and apologize?
Is the head pastor refusing to have meetings in combination with the music leader and those who are trying to address these problems? Has anyone requested such a meeting?
If Matt 18 is being followed, this should have already been the topic of a meeting with all parties involved. From what you stated, it sounds like the pastor is refusing such meetings.
If that's the case, there isn't much you can do.
Let's list out some options (I'm just thinking out loud here--hope you don't mind  ):
--Stay in choir, pray and use grace and not allow his anger to cause you to sin, and be quiet about it all.
--Stay in choir, pray and use grace and not allow his anger to cause you to sin, and confront the angry behavior when you see it (following Matt 18).
--Remove yourself from choir, but stay at the church, pray and pray that God will restore the health of the church.
--Request a meeting between the pastor, music leader, and you/your husband, and address the wrongs and try to seek correction.
--Request a meeting between the pastor, music leader, and you/your husband, and address the wrongs and if no correction, seek a new fellowship elsewhere.
Options you shouldn't do  :
--gossip
--stir up an angry mob
--slander him
--let this sink your fellowship with those you love
--let this harm your walk with Christ
The problem is, this leader's behavior does have consequences. It's his anger/attitude that are wrong, not the simple incompetence. Like you stated, an incompetent leader can defer to those with more skills, but he is refusing and is instead becoming angry.
It's quite a sour pickle! 
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 10:54:42 AM
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missourinative
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I've never seen or heard of an apology - I think he feels (this is just a guess) it would hurt his authority.
The pastor is refusing to accept a meeting concerning the various issues.
Several of us are quite willing to help the MD with some of the things he is unable to perform and have offered (writing out parts, working out harmonies, helping the musicians), but have been rebuffed.
Even the sound and recording people have tried to address this, with no luck. The recording tech has been chewed out for bad sounding recordings; his attempts to explain that you cannot fix bad harmonies on a recording have been scoffed at. He cannot do overdubs, because the same bad harmonies will be recorded over the ones he already has. The MD will not allow anyone to do overdubs except himself.
I think the MD has bluffed the pastor into believing that the problems are because of others ineptitude (is that a word?). Our pastor is not musically savvy enough to be able to pinpoint the problem, and now believes that the entire music department is persecuting our leader.
It is a very sad situation.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 11:21:11 AM
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crankius
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Here is a radical idea.
If the music is truly becoming a mess, where people are devouring one another, then for a time, maybe music should stop.
In Gal 5, the flesh brings outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, and dissensions.
The music is becoming fleshly, and therefore, not glorifying to the Lord and not edifying to the Body.
(I don't know your whole situation. 24 years in one church is a long time. You certainly don't want to walk away, but you also have to examine if this is leadership you can submit to and be persuaded by. If they are not leading, then who is protecting the flock?)
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 12:16:00 PM
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deliveredarling
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I'm hearing more complaining than I am doing something about it.
I don't mean to be harsh here, but you have some choices to make.
!.) Accept the situation as it is, without complaint or harsh feelings
2.) Move on
3.) Do something about it.
You say that you have done something, to no avail. Try something different.
But for you and others to continue in this church with the animosity is, no good for anyone, certainly not edifying to one another. I'm also sure that it is difficult with resentful feelings, to worship God while at church.
The enemy has come in and ya'll are allowing him to have a hayday! He comes to steal, kill and destroy.
Sounds like he has stolen a lot of joy, Killed some relationships and destroyed the act of worship.
Don't you think it's time for the enemy to be removed and God be restored?
Do something or nothing. Make a decision.
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Luke 8:16
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/27/2008 4:36:25 PM
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missourinative
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So if someone posts here concerning a problem, its considered complaining?
I'm just looking for some Godly input, to give me some perspective.
I appreciate the kindly, sincere, friendly responses.
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RE: When you have a bad leader, what do you do? - 8/28/2008 11:50:14 AM
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monk-monk
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it seems the problem may be your pastor, and not the choir director. As Shepard of the flock, they are to lead the sheep and take care of them. If the head is not in order, the body won't be either.God can and will move in this matter when we carry it into the THRONE ROOM and lay it at HIS feet.
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