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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 2:00:52 PM
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shadowspring
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quote:
I do believe it is growing, thanks to the Internet. Same as pornography, more people are able to see more of it.
I hope you are mistaken! I know at least in some circles, it seems more and more families are waking up to the foolishness of patriarchy.
In my home school group in FL, for example, the mutual submission teachings of Joel and Kathy Davisson are getting a lot of press. That has to be a good thing!
And I've known at least one BG family that decided love was the more excellent way, and embraced grace! The only sorrow they have is that their oldest two daughters still embrace what they grew up with, and that is sad. One of them even married a Muslim.
I have never known any woman who was happy and fulfilled under patriarchy in the long term. I've been home schooling 13 years now, so I have seen a lot families come and go. Unfortunately, seen a lot of marriages come and go as well.
I have known women starting out their lives who seemed very happy with the system, especially when their children are young. But not too many with teens that it is still working for.
Most of families that start out strongly patriarchal in my experience wind up divorced, estranged, mom is medicated for depression/anxiety or they ditched the practice of patriarchy altogether.
One of my best friends is still married, she just lives her life around her big baby husband. He threatens to leave her all the time. But then who would make his tea? Seriously! I just don't see it ever happening. He could not make it in this world without servants to wait on him.
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"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 2:20:52 PM
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bluestone
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I know one family in this model who wound up divorced. He would go on vacations and leave wife and kids at , home. She and the one girl child were treated like servants, the five boys a little bit better.She was not allowed to drive so she was always asking for rides to take kids to doctor, etc.
He left her for another woman and moved out of state.. She was 43 with a two year old and five other kids , never worked outside the home. wound up in the state mental hospital, the kids in foster care.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 2:49:40 PM
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shadowspring
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Well, my friend will wind up in better straights than that if her husband ever follows through on his threat. 
I met her at church many years ago. She became my prayer partner. Her husband kept her on a budget so tiny that she could not feed her five kids, so I hired her to clean my house. That began a business for her that she keeps all the money from. As long as hubby had his dinner and his tea, he seems okay with it. At this point, I don't think it would matter if he complained though. She is not about to give up her livelihood!
The twins are 16 now. Hubby threatens to leave as soon as they graduate from high school. Unfortunately, she actually does love him, though for the life of me I do not see why. So for her heart's sake, I hope he gets a clue and grows up.
I know the Lord will provide for my friend if he leaves. She is smart, capable, beautiful, well-respected everywhere she goes. Her so-called husband will be the one to suffer if he walks out. She knows how to make her own tea!  
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 3:10:46 PM
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shadowspring
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You know, I have known a woman like your friend bluestone. It is tragic.
This woman I am thinking of, instead of thinking for herself and studying God's Word for herself, just let her husband tell her what was God's will. She had to quit home schooling and support the family with part-time work while her husband sat on his rear "seeking God".
This went on for the last four years. Her meager income was supplemented by his robbing their home equity. She knew nothing about the finances! She didn't even keep her own money, but turned it over to him! She never even searched the Word for herself to see if this way of life was right! She just took his and his church's word for it!  
Her heart longed to home school, but he sent her to work and did the "teaching". Then, because he was so lazy, he put them all in public school. Which has turned out okay because....
This past Christmas he went back to work- FINALLY! But within a month he found a Christian girl at work who LET HIM MOVE IN WITH HER!  I am not kidding!!!! 
He still abuses his wife by telling her his "ministry" will really take off now with a supportive woman in his life. He has a great apartment, while wife is in a house falling apart with disrepair that is not worth anywhere near what they own on it. She will soon be evicted. Now she is out partying and dating, looking for some other man to be responsible for her. I think that is the saddest part. Because she is never home, and is bitter and unhappy, the children want to live with Dad and he just came and got them one day so she is even more depressed than ever.
But she does not get off scot free. It is not only her husband's fault. If the wife had sought the Lord for herself, she would not be in this situation! She feels let down by God, but it is not God's fault at all. She served religion and her husband instead of Jesus.
I just want to shake her: Take responsibility for your life! Take responsibility for your walk with God! Be a woman of God! Stand up! Walk by faith, girlfriend!
But sadly she remains passively stuck in self-pity and a martyrdom mentality. 
I really hate it when women let this happen to themselves.
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 3:47:01 PM
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stateofgrace
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From what I've read of other people's experiences, many times it's the wife who pushes the husband into the more extreme patriarchy mode. I think it would appeal to women who want someone to "take care" of them (IOW, not having to be concerned about finances and other day-to-day pressures that adults have to deal with). I think women also come under the influence of these teachings when they see a lack of assertiveness or "leadership" personality in their husband....they see this idealized description of a man leading, and their man doesn't fit the mold, so they try and push him in that direction.
I think that for many men, the appeal is to gain a sense of control in a world that all too often seems out of control. The world may be going to h-e-doble-hockey-sticks, but in his own little kingdom, all will be right.
The thing is, the New Testament is pretty clear on defining leadership and it's as a servant, not ruling with a heavy hand.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 8:44:43 PM
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phosadaud
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quote:
ORIGINAL: shadowspring
She served religion and her husband instead of Jesus.
I think this really sums it up. My ultimate authority is and will always be Jesus. Period. Married or single, that will not change. Period. No one will ever take the place of Jesus in my life. Period.
That doesn't mean I want to "rule the home". That means, I have my priorities and God is #1. (Consequently that why I have never understood ladies who don't marry believers - how can you enter into a relationship with someone who will see you as #1, when you don't see them as #1?). And I want to marry someone who has that same priority.
And I would agree that this form of patriarchy is much more visible today - and much of that does have to do with the internet. I'm not sure what that means in terms of numbers, but the fact that there are vocal folks out there who espouse it, means it needs to be addressed. It doesn't help when they use terms that the church uses but with different meanings. Submit in most churches (like mine) is nothing like the master-servant relationship that we see in these extreme patriarchal homes.
What concerns me is how some of this is slipping into the mainstream in "subtle" ways. And sometimes not so subtle. Look at how all feminism is demonized. I'm not talking about extremist feminism (pro-choice, free sex, man-haters, etc). I'm talking about basic feminism: the right to vote, the right to not be treated like an object, the right to pursue various career choices, equal pay for equal work. It's a dirty word in churches today - even though it's only the most extreme that is really not inline with basic Christianity. I mean, we don't say "Baptist" is an evil word just because of the psychos at Westboro Baptist church. That would be silly and yet the best way to get crucified on these forums is to mention the word "feminism".
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Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 8:47:51 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
And I've known at least one BG family
What's BG?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 8:49:56 PM
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bluestone
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And as the Muslim influence continue to filter into American society, the more it will seem normal for men to dominate women and children the way the OP posted. Scary stuff, indeed.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 9:23:55 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
What concerns me is how some of this is slipping into the mainstream in "subtle" ways. And sometimes not so subtle. Look at how all feminism is demonized. I'm not talking about extremist feminism (pro-choice, free sex, man-haters, etc). I'm talking about basic feminism: the right to vote, the right to not be treated like an object, the right to pursue various career choices, equal pay for equal work. It's a dirty word in churches today - even though it's only the most extreme that is really not inline with basic Christianity. I mean, we don't say "Baptist" is an evil word just because of the psychos at Westboro Baptist church. That would be silly and yet the best way to get crucified on these forums is to mention the word "feminism".
You're absolutely right, and it frustrates me to no end. Even women I respect as being reasonable, intelligent women sometimes seem to take all feminism as being the most vile, extreme type of feminism.
Normal, regular feminism seems to have vanished from people's thought processes. Actually suggesting that women can work outside the home or disagree with her husband seems to imply that you hate men and want to kill babies. I don't get it, because otherwise a lot of these people seem reasonable and logical.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 9:48:21 PM
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phosadaud
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I used to avoid calling myself a feminist. I finally decided that was stupid. I call myself a Christian despite some of the super wacky folks out there who call themselves Christian. Why shouldn't I do the same here? I am a pro-life, man-loving feminist who believes I can do a great job in a male-dominated field and should get paid accordingly. I believe God gave me brains and I will exercise those brains. I have the same value as any man and God doesn't see me as less of His servant because of my gender. That's not extreme and doesn't contradict a single Scripture.
Sadly, these extreme forms of patriarchy have created their own culture and tried to stamp it with the Bible. And the weird thing is, these extreme forms of patriarchy aren't even seen in Scripture - and the culture back then was pretty anti-women. In fact, we see an early church that relied on the hard work of many women - and young folks like Timothy. These extreme patriarchal families have made "control" and "obedience" into the Savior of society rather than Jesus. So, instead of blaming sin on the problems of the world, we blame women not "obeying". Instead of teaching our children follow Jesus, we teach them to blindly obey. And the end result is, we go back to living under the law and not under grace.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 9:50:49 PM
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landabee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I used to avoid calling myself a feminist. I finally decided that was stupid. I call myself a Christian despite some of the super wacky folks out there who call themselves Christian. Why shouldn't I do the same here? I am a pro-life, man-loving feminist who believes I can do a great job in a male-dominated field and should get paid accordingly. I believe God gave me brains and I will exercise those brains. I have the same value as any man and God doesn't see me as less of His servant because of my gender. That's not extreme and doesn't contradict a single Scripture.
Sadly, these extreme forms of patriarchy have created their own culture and tried to stamp it with the Bible. And the weird thing is, these extreme forms of patriarchy aren't even seen in Scripture - and the culture back then was pretty anti-women. In fact, we see an early church that relied on the hard work of many women - and young folks like Timothy. These extreme patriarchal families have made "control" and "obedience" into the Savior of society rather than Jesus. So, instead of blaming sin on the problems of the world, we blame women not "obeying". Instead of teaching our children follow Jesus, we teach them to blindly obey. And the end result is, we go back to living under the law and not under grace.
:::::Applause:::::
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"Sound theology discourages ignorance instead of promoting it." ~ CourdeLeon
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/1/2008 10:08:38 PM
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CoeurdeLeon_
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quote:
What concerns me is how some of this is slipping into the mainstream in "subtle" ways. And sometimes not so subtle. Look at how all feminism is demonized. I'm not talking about extremist feminism (pro-choice, free sex, man-haters, etc). I'm talking about basic feminism: the right to vote, the right to not be treated like an object, the right to pursue various career choices, equal pay for equal work. It's a dirty word in churches today - even though it's only the most extreme that is really not inline with basic Christianity. I mean, we don't say "Baptist" is an evil word just because of the psychos at Westboro Baptist church. That would be silly and yet the best way to get crucified on these forums is to mention the word "feminism".
I was thinking this very thing, Phosy. That perhaps it is becoming more common in a sort of Christian backlash response to feminism.
This is part of a long post I saw today here on these forums. It really beggars description.
quote:
This passage shows that it is the tendency of women to "see" things that are not real and true, but borne of their thoughts that turn the very words of God on their head:
Gen 3:6 "And when the woman saw that the tree [was] good for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make [one] wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat."
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This morning I was awakened by the sound of purple
colliding with the fragrance of laughter.
Eutychus
10.13.08
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 7:57:17 AM
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stateofgrace
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I can't in good conscience call myself a "feminist" (even a white-washed one, LOL).
But I also stand in opposition to much of what these hyper-patriarch types teach.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 10:56:00 AM
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sisrev
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestone
yeah, and the man hears that a snake told her to eat it, and she did, and he just took the fruit from her and gobbled it up. I think the story of Adam and Eve tells more about Adam's mental health than it does Eve's.
I heard some teaching recently concerning the Jewish Shabbat ceremony that is done in observant Jewish homes all over the world. The woman of the house lights the sabbath candles and says the initial prayer welcoming both the Sabbath and the Lord of the Sabbath into the home.
Jewish tradition teaches that as it was woman who yielded first in the garden, woman is given the opportunity first to welcome the sabbath (He is our sabbath), the sabbath light ( He is our light), and the Lord of the Sabbath ( He is the Lord of our homes).
Furthermore, tradition teaches that it was not until man partook of the fruit that mankind in general "fell". Man, however, is not allowed to welcome the Sabbath and all that it entails, because the Word expressly states that woman was deceived (you shall not surely die), but man took the fruit with his eyes wide open.
So woman gets the blame, in a sense unjustly, so in return she gets the privelige of not only of welcoming the Sabbath and all that the sabbath is symbolic of, but she also gets the privilege of being the vessel through which Messiah comes into the world. Therefore, interpreted correctly, being a woman should be a position of honor, not servitude, as she is the only one capable of bringing forth Messiah.
Whoo hoo! Just makes me grin all over!
< Message edited by sisrev -- 9/2/2008 11:15:14 AM >
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 11:26:48 AM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
I can't in good conscience call myself a "feminist" (even a white-washed one, LOL).
But I also stand in opposition to much of what these hyper-patriarch types teach.
Why? Because of the hyper-extreme form of feminism that churches like to scare people with?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/2/2008 11:50:29 AM
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shadowspring
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quote:
What's BG?
Bill Gothard, phosadaud was right. 
My favorite feminist tome, my manifesto, if you will, is Domestic Tranquility by F. Carolyn Graglia. She is a committed Christian, a lawyer and later a judge, who chose to leave her career to be a SAHM when her children were little- and also wrote this huge book.
It's dated now, but it was written in response to the ultra-feminists of my youth (70s and 80s) who were of the children-hating, man-hating, "if you don't have a paying job you're not a real woman" variety. You know, back when Andrea Dworken went as far as to write that all sexual intercourse is rape and subjugates women.  And when Alice Walker sleeping around all over Africa and then having an abortion was praised as "courageous". And when Ms. Graglia's choice to leave her successful career for a season to enjoy her children was seen as a betrayal of the sisterhood.
Really, choosing to be a SAHM was extremely counter-cultural for me. And still, my age peers often deride my choice. Praise God for the righteous women I know who look beyond occupation to see the true person and rejoice in what God has done!
But true freedom, the kind of freedom Christ died for us to enjoy, is where each woman is free to follow her heart, and use her gifts and talents in the way she finds fulfilling. If that woman is a believer, I trust she will follow the leading of the Holy Spirit in all her endeavors.
< Message edited by shadowspring -- 9/2/2008 12:02:18 PM >
_____________________________
"Blessed is the man...whose delight is in the law of the Lord, and in His law meditates day and night. He will be like a tree planted by rivers of water..." from Psalm 1
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 
Wow. I'm not even going to ask which thread that's from because I would probably end up getting a TOS if I went there...
