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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/5/2008 9:06:59 AM
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LaurainAL
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quote:
I know, it always gets to me when these groups push their Patriarchal views about a woman's place being in the home, yet they seem to have no trouble benefiting from the labor of female police officers, fire fighters, soldiers, doctors, scientists, engineers.... I could go on and on.
Or a female Vice President...
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/5/2008 3:51:17 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Or a female Vice President...
Actually...the super patriarchal folks are complaining vocally and bitterly. One more reason for them not to vote McCain, and all that.
Yes, I agree with Maggie on that one. The most extreme groups are not happy about McCain's choice of a running mate.
I guess they'll be voting for a 3rd party candidate or not at all?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/5/2008 3:51:47 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
Or a female Vice President...
Actually...the super patriarchal folks are complaining vocally and bitterly. One more reason for them not to vote McCain, and all that.
Yup, he will definitely lose a certain crowd.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/5/2008 3:53:57 PM
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Consecrated2God
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They'll vote third party. They usually do anyway.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/5/2008 10:29:54 PM
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spitzu
Posts: 1082
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quote:
I used to avoid calling myself a feminist. I finally decided that was stupid. I call myself a Christian despite some of the super wacky folks out there who call themselves Christian. Why shouldn't I do the same here? I am a pro-life, man-loving feminist who believes I can do a great job in a male-dominated field and should get paid accordingly. I believe God gave me brains and I will exercise those brains. I have the same value as any man and God doesn't see me as less of His servant because of my gender. That's not extreme and doesn't contradict a single Scripture.
Sadly, these extreme forms of patriarchy have created their own culture and tried to stamp it with the Bible. And the weird thing is, these extreme forms of patriarchy aren't even seen in Scripture - and the culture back then was pretty anti-women. In fact, we see an early church that relied on the hard work of many women - and young folks like Timothy. These extreme patriarchal families have made "control" and "obedience" into the Savior of society rather than Jesus. So, instead of blaming sin on the problems of the world, we blame women not "obeying". Instead of teaching our children follow Jesus, we teach them to blindly obey. And the end result is, we go back to living under the law and not under grace.
This is an excellent post, and one I agree with 100%.
quote:
I heard some teaching recently concerning the Jewish Shabbat ceremony that is done in observant Jewish homes all over the world. The woman of the house lights the sabbath candles and says the initial prayer welcoming both the Sabbath and the Lord of the Sabbath into the home.
Jewish tradition teaches that as it was woman who yielded first in the garden, woman is given the opportunity first to welcome the sabbath (He is our sabbath), the sabbath light ( He is our light), and the Lord of the Sabbath ( He is the Lord of our homes).
Furthermore, tradition teaches that it was not until man partook of the fruit that mankind in general "fell". Man, however, is not allowed to welcome the Sabbath and all that it entails, because the Word expressly states that woman was deceived (you shall not surely die), but man took the fruit with his eyes wide open.
So woman gets the blame, in a sense unjustly, so in return she gets the privelige of not only of welcoming the Sabbath and all that the sabbath is symbolic of, but she also gets the privilege of being the vessel through which Messiah comes into the world. Therefore, interpreted correctly, being a woman should be a position of honor, not servitude, as she is the only one capable of bringing forth Messiah.
Whoo hoo! Just makes me grin all over!
Now that was fascinating. 
Sorry, I know those posts were several pages back, but I read them and cheered. 
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 8:15:30 AM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 2023
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Just north of nowhere
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quote:
Well, I will tell you that I think the term mutual submission is over used and if anything I would say it would be mutual submission through the leadings, guidance, and provision of the husband through Christ. I will go through the verse as well but allow me to relate this to the military...My commander is responsible for EVERYTHING. When I say that, I mean his name is on all the supplies, the bank accounts, the equipment, the vehicles, etc. and it is his duty to run them efficiently as well as it is his butt on the line should something go wrong.
I am responsible for EVERYTHING in our family. My name is not on the vehicle but if something goes wrong I am responsible to fix it, should you and the kids be left without a vehicle. The same is true of everything else. My name, though not literally, is on everything in our family; you, the kids, the cars, the house. As such, everything reflects on me as well...not to say that I worry about that; I am more worried about honoring Christ. God gave all of you to me and told me to take care of his children. So yes, you are correct in saying that I am the leader and "boss" if you will.
But just as the commander submits (deligates) his authority to lower (in rank only, not in life) NCO's so that he can accomplish other duties (of which he has many), I submit to you in much the same way. The commander gives puchasing power to an NCO to buy all the supplies and keep them properly inventoried. It is now that NCO's duty, but the commander is still responsible. I give you authority to buy the groceries and the money to do so, trusting that you will get what we need and keep us healthily fed. I am still responsible.
The part that I am most concerned about in this conversation is this: if the commander is a good leader he will not only give orders, but heed the word of his subbordinates. I must listen to you and heed your word because even if I was not gone as much as I am, I am built different than you with different spiritual gifts and different convictions and different callings. When you do what you are supposed to according to your duties, gifts, and calling you will notice things I will not; sometimes by the simple fact that I am a guy and you are a gal. We notice different things. Factor in that God gives us different convictions, opening our hearts to different things that would be almost invisible to another. Just as the commander submits to the advice, counsel, "orders" of his NCO's, I too submit to you for advice, counsel, "orders."
So what I meant above when I said, "mutual submission through the leadings, guidance, and provision of the husband through Christ" was that I am held responsible for all of us but as a leader I develop my orders from many different inputs and submit to each one to come to a final decision that incorporates the big picture as it relates to our family. Am I good at it...not really. But I know how and I am practicing. In my short comings I can rely on others (you, Christ) for input so that the group (family, church) doesn't fail. When I am weak He is strong....whether that be through you or I is not up to me to decide. He will decide whose turn it is to be strong for the other. I will submit accordingly as a leader and will lead in submission to God's provision, through and for my family.
You know the scripture so I just want to go over one verse...Eph 5:25 "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her." He did not command someone to give themself up, He did it. He submitted, even unto death, to cleans His people and bring to them eternal life. In this statement comes my redefinition of mutual submission...in our relationship, you submit to me knowing that I submit to all, so that I may lead from all sides. This context also involves a redefinition of submission, thus...considering others more than yourself. I don't always get my way if I am leading honestly and compassionately from a heart of service seeking to glorify God.
In the inspired words of Forrest Gump, "that's all I have to say about that."
Thoughts? Is this an example of healthy patriarchy?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 11:40:11 AM
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Sideways
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Did your husband write that Sandy? I'll have to develop my thoughts more to respond.
May I ask why you refer to yourself as the property of an army soldier?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 12:00:17 PM
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Sideways
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I think Sarah (Peculiar Lady) had an analogy that works better for my family, that of two officers of equal rank but with different areas of expertise. One spouse may be better at handling finances, one spouse may have a higher earning potential and therefore bring in the lion's share of the paycheck, one spouse may have a heart to SAH with the children.
And so, knowing each other's strengths and weakness, they submit to each other, based on each other's area of expertise. Major decisions like moving to a new job, a new town or a new church, should be made jointly, with a lot of discussion and prayer.
I don't agree that I am my husband's subordinate, or that I must "obey" him. I show him respect by listening to him and often submitting to him in areas where he has greater expertise.
The patriarch you are describing is not necessarily unhealthy, and in fact I think for some families in can work just fine. But I don't feel that final responsibility for everything rests solely on the male's head. Responsibility is shared between the two adults.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 4:46:49 PM
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Sideways
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Okay, I see what you mean about the property thing. It works both ways then. I guess the word just has an ugly "feel" to it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Those examples you bring up are interesting. In fact, my husband did "put his foot down" so to speak about church. He has felt a tug to ministry and is in fact making moves towards a chaplaincy. He has decided that the best place for the kids and I to attend worship was the chapel on post. That was a tough call for me to "obey" . I didn't understand why, and he did his best to explain, but in the end simply had to say, "I know you don't see...but you will so just trust me and do it."
Actually, I thought about you with the church example. I read your blog, you know. I don't think you and your husband have an unhealthy relationship, but I don't see that kind of relationship working well for me. Good thing, as we can't all be married to your husband.  
But how has the new church been working out for you? It's interesting that your husband is considering the chaplaincy. I lived the military life for a number of years, and I remember most chaplains practicing a more moderate version of Christianity, concerning marriage and gender roles. Maybe they've gotten more conservative through the years?
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 4:48:21 PM
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phosadaud
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I'm just going to be blunt. I find 'property' to be somewhat offensive. The Scripture doesn't say we are the property of another:
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 1 Corinthians 7:4 (emphasis mine)
This is about being one: It doesn't say the wife belongs to the husband but that her body belongs to her AND her husband. AND a husband's body belongs not only to him but to his wife. Why? Because a married couple become ONE. If you are one, you no longer belong just to yourself anymore than my arm can belong to itself but not my leg.
Being the property of another implies to me a master/slave relationship which is not biblical. I'm not saying that is what is being said here, but that is why I find that kind of terminology offensive because that is what it brings to mind.
I am also not a fan of the word "obey" because to me it implies unquestioning & unyielding control (note Scripture (Ephesians) says wives are to submit to their husbands and children are to obey their parents. There is a distinction). I don't believe we are to "control" anyone (which is what obey implies) but rather we are to submit to one another in love. That means we don't always get our way and must yield to another. That means we both have input. That means we listen to each other and hear each other. It may be just semantics, but to me there is a big difference between submit and obey.
As far as responsibility, I believe Scripture says that when we marry, we become one. As ONE, I do not believe half of the one is responsible and half isn't. I believe the ONE is responsible. That doesn't negate the idea of a husband having the final call (someone has to). However, I do not see in Scripture that a man is supposed to be in control of everything. I see that the husband is charged with loving his wife and taking care of her. I do not see that as meaning the husband is the Commander and the wife is the subordinate waiting for her husbands commands. That's not unity. That's not "oneness".
Now, I am not saying that what was described above is "dysfunctional". I don't. Every couple needs to find what "order" best enables them to work as One and in unity. Dysfunctional to me is when the "order" is unhealthy, unloving, disrespectful and doesn't build up but rather tears down. A man who feels he needs to "put his wife in her place" isn't building her up - he's tearing her down. A woman who doesn't respect and honor her husband isn't building up but is tearing down. That's dysfunctional.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 4:50:01 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
Posts: 2675
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From: California
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quote:
I remember most chaplains practicing a more moderate version of Christianity, concerning marriage and gender roles. Maybe they've gotten more conservative through the years?
As the daughter of a retired Navy chaplain, I can tell you that each and every chaplain's level of beliefs like that, and even the level of how hard they work is as varied as their fingerprints.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 4:57:20 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 2023
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Just north of nowhere
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
Okay, I see what you mean about the property thing. It works both ways then. I guess the word just has an ugly "feel" to it.
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Those examples you bring up are interesting. In fact, my husband did "put his foot down" so to speak about church. He has felt a tug to ministry and is in fact making moves towards a chaplaincy. He has decided that the best place for the kids and I to attend worship was the chapel on post. That was a tough call for me to "obey" . I didn't understand why, and he did his best to explain, but in the end simply had to say, "I know you don't see...but you will so just trust me and do it."
Actually, I thought about you with the church example. I read your blog, you know. I don't think you and your husband have an unhealthy relationship, but I don't see that kind of relationship working well for me. Good thing, as we can't all be married to your husband.
But how has the new church been working out for you? It's interesting that your husband is considering the chaplaincy. I lived the military life for a number of years, and I remember most chaplains practicing a more moderate version of Christianity, concerning marriage and gender roles. Maybe they've gotten more conservative through the years?
glad we're "cool"
Hmm...That's interesting about the military and chaplaincy. Our head chaplian's wife just led a bible study over the summer for women...the book? "Created to be his helpmeet"!!
Maybe...of course, it depends on the post, and the variety of chaplains stationed there I'm sure.
Going to chapel is working wonderfully thanks for asking! I'm tickled pink that you read my blog
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 5:01:18 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Hmm...That's interesting about the military and chaplaincy. Our head chaplian's wife just led a bible study over the summer for women...the book? "Created to be his helpmeet"!!
Oh my goodness, that ... strikes me as funny for some reason. Well, I'm sure it'll lead to some interesting discussions. I'm sure Rebekkah is right, every chaplain is different. Well, I'm glad the new chapel is working out well for you.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/7/2008 5:41:55 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
yes Ruth. My man did write that. I was telling about this thread and the (seemingly) two drastically different viewpoints: patriarchy (not dysfunctional patriarchy) vs. egalitarianism (I'm sure I butchered the spelling..sorry)
Those examples you bring up are interesting. In fact, my husband did "put his foot down" so to speak about church. He has felt a tug to ministry and is in fact making moves towards a chaplaincy. He has decided that the best place for the kids and I to attend worship was the chapel on post. That was a tough call for me to "obey" . I didn't understand why, and he did his best to explain, but in the end simply had to say, "I know you don't see...but you will so just trust me and do it."
Sandy, I think this is where the principle of loving one another comes into play. I can submit to my husband out of love because I know he will not make a decision like that if he knew I was going to be miserable. And can be assured that I will make a priority out of his needs and heavily lean towards his wishes.. That doesn't mean that we don't ever have disagreements, just that we are both willing to consider each other as much or more so than ourselves.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 9:53:22 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 887
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
quote:
Well, I will tell you that I think the term mutual submission is over used and if anything I would say it would be mutual submission through the leadings, guidance, and provision of the husband through Christ...
I wouldn't describe this as mutual submission
quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
...Thoughts? Is this an example of healthy patriarchy?
Can't say whether I would term it "healthy patriarchy", not knowing how the actual dynamics of your relationship works out, but to me, what is described here (in your post from your husband) is a definite example of "patriarchy".
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 11:46:53 AM
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Sideways
Posts: 3707
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Excellent point..and therein lies the rub, so to speak. The difference between "patriarchal" families...and dysfunctional patriarchal families is the consideration of others before self...
Well, the difference between any functional family is the consideration others before self, whether patriarchal or not.
I certainly don't think that the patriarchal system needs to be applied to every Christian family. There's no one set of rules that's going to work for every situation. But I do know a few women like Sandy and Maggie who are happy and thriving in a patriarchal relationship, so I can't discount all of them out of hand as being "unhealthy".
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 11:53:27 AM
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Ellie-Mae
Posts: 3734
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quote:
Well, the difference between any functional family is the consideration others before self, whether patriarchal or not.
Well put, except that it might better read as : " Well, the difference between any functional family is the consideration each member puts on others before self (with the exception of children who are still learning to do that), whether the family is patriarchal or not.
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