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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 3:18:22 PM
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phosadaud
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Just curious if there were any thoughts on my post 164. It kind got buried in the middle of a chat.
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~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 3:53:40 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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To make a longer answer short, yes, I had many thoughts on it.
It was a good post.
However, I am going to pm with you any further thoughts.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 5:17:43 PM
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Sideways
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As far as the idea of being someone's property? Well, I still would never use that word myself. It has an ugly connotation, as was pointed out, that being of slavery. A slave was someone's property, just as much as their horse or cow or pig.
But in the way Sandy explained it, she meant it more like the husband and wife "belonged" to each other, that they were a part of each other and a part of a family unit. The "ownership" went both ways, as she explained it.
I do believe "the body belonging to the spouse" verse is often abused by men to demand sex from their wives or demand that the wife keep in perfect shape. Of course, the verse was not meant to turn women into under-paid prostitutes for their husbands, but it has been used to that effect. So, yes, the generally accepted definition of "property" is offensive when applied to a human being, but the particular way Sandy used it, is not offensive to me.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 5:19:17 PM
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Sideways
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As far as the "obey" issue: I do believe that Kristin is right. Wives are not commanded to obey their husbands, and if anyone has a verse to prove me wrong, then I'd love to see it. We are commanded to submit, but that has a much different interpretation then obey.
I think the patriarchal movement, both healthy and unhealthy, can sometimes stretch the command to submit into unquestioning obedience, which I do not personally like. But ... if a husband wants to do something (like change churches) and the wife raises her concerns/objections, and the husband after careful consideration, decides to overrule her and "put his foot down", is that unhealthy?
Well..... it's not something I would ever want in my marriage. I think the husband "putting his foot down" can lead to disaster even in the healthiest of marriages. Of course, listening to his wife and deciding to go with her idea could also potentially lead to disaster. Hindsight is 20/20.
To be honest, all I can repeat is that I wouldn't want that kind of a system in my marriage, but since I "see" living, breathing women here who are happy and thriving in such a system, I find no justification for putting down their way of life, just because I find it a little distasteful.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 7:16:26 PM
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peculiar_lady2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
I think Sarah (Peculiar Lady) had an analogy that works better for my family, that of two officers of equal rank but with different areas of expertise. One spouse may be better at handling finances, one spouse may have a higher earning potential and therefore bring in the lion's share of the paycheck, one spouse may have a heart to SAH with the children.
And so, knowing each other's strengths and weakness, they submit the each other, based on each other's area of expertise. Major decisions like moving to a new job, a new town or a new church, should be made jointly, with a lot of discussion and prayer.
I don't agree that I am my husband's subordinate, or that I must "obey" him. I show him respect by listening to him and often submitting to him in areas where he has greater expertise.
The patriarch you are describing is not necessarily unhealthy, and in fact I think for some families in can work just fine. But I don't feel that final responsibility for everything rests solely on the male's head. Responsibility is shared between the two adults.
 I got quoted and I wasn't even in this thread yet!!!!
as for the property thing.....just wanted to throw a different outlook into the mix.
in the military any soldier is called a GI...or a "Government Issued"...in other words, property. When my hubby was in basic training a guy he knew got mad one day and hit a brick wall with his fist, resulting in breaking his arm. He got an article 15 (a type of reprimand) for "Destruction of Government Property"...and they weren't referring to the wall. It is generally a "joke" around the military how everyone is considered in some way to be "property" of some kind. In fact an old saying way back when used to be "If the Army wanted you to have a wife they would have issued you one". As far as it being offensive, no it isn't meant to be, it simply is a very dry humor kind of thing that anyone with any dealings with the military paperwork would get to joke in.
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 7:24:28 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
Posts: 2023
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sideways
As far as the "obey" issue: I do believe that Kristin is right. Wives are not commanded to obey their husbands, and if anyone has a verse to prove me wrong, then I'd love to see it. We are commanded to submit, but that has a much different interpretation then obey.
Okay!
Dictionary.com
sub·mit
Pronunciation[suhb-mit]
Pronunciation verb, -mit·ted, -mit·ting.
–verb (used with object)
1. to give over or yield to the power or authority of another (often used reflexively).
2. to subject to some kind of treatment or influence.
3. to present for the approval, consideration, or decision of another or others: to submit a plan; to submit an application.
4. to state or urge with deference; suggest or propose (usually fol. by a clause): I submit that full proof should be required.
–verb (used without object)
5. to yield oneself to the power or authority of another: to submit to a conqueror.
6. to allow oneself to be subjected to some kind of treatment: to submit to chemotherapy.
7. to defer to another's judgment, opinion, decision, etc.: I submit to your superior judgment.
[Origin: 1325–75; ME submitten < L submittere to lower, reduce, yield, equiv. to sub- sub- + mittere to send]
—Synonyms 1. comply, bow, obey,agree, resign. See yield.
—Antonyms 1. fight.
Submit and obey are not two different things necessarily...
As far as scripture...what about Titus 2?
Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God. Titus 2:3-5
to be fair...this varies with the version. This is NIV...KJV says obedient. The other versions vary between "subject to" or "submissive to"
quote:
The duty prescribed to wives is submission to their husbands in the Lord (v. 22), which submission includes the honouring and obeying of them, Taken from the Matthew Henry commentary on CW on Eph 5:22
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 7:35:23 PM
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BlessedMamaofmany
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quote:
ORIGINAL: phosadaud
I'm just going to be blunt. I find 'property' to be somewhat offensive. The Scripture doesn't say we are the property of another:
The wife's body does not belong to her alone but also to her husband. In the same way, the husband's body does not belong to him alone but also to his wife. 1 Corinthians 7:4 (emphasis mine)
This is about being one: It doesn't say the wife belongs to the husband but that her body belongs to her AND her husband. AND a husband's body belongs not only to him but to his wife. Why? Because a married couple become ONE. If you are one, you no longer belong just to yourself anymore than my arm can belong to itself but not my leg.
Being the property of another implies to me a master/slave relationship which is not biblical. I'm not saying that is what is being said here, but that is why I find that kind of terminology offensive because that is what it brings to mind.
I am also not a fan of the word "obey" because to me it implies unquestioning & unyielding control (note Scripture (Ephesians) says wives are to submit to their husbands and children are to obey their parents. There is a distinction). I don't believe we are to "control" anyone (which is what obey implies) but rather we are to submit to one another in love. That means we don't always get our way and must yield to another. That means we both have input. That means we listen to each other and hear each other. It may be just semantics, but to me there is a big difference between submit and obey.
As far as responsibility, I believe Scripture says that when we marry, we become one. As ONE, I do not believe half of the one is responsible and half isn't. I believe the ONE is responsible. That doesn't negate the idea of a husband having the final call (someone has to). However, I do not see in Scripture that a man is supposed to be in control of everything. I see that the husband is charged with loving his wife and taking care of her. I do not see that as meaning the husband is the Commander and the wife is the subordinate waiting for her husbands commands. That's not unity. That's not "oneness".
Now, I am not saying that what was described above is "dysfunctional". I don't. Every couple needs to find what "order" best enables them to work as One and in unity. Dysfunctional to me is when the "order" is unhealthy, unloving, disrespectful and doesn't build up but rather tears down. A man who feels he needs to "put his wife in her place" isn't building her up - he's tearing her down. A woman who doesn't respect and honor her husband isn't building up but is tearing down. That's dysfunctional.
I will be equally blunt.  Bummer that you find that offensive. (In jest of course...just tryin' to lighten the mood)
Back to the subject at hand. I addressed the subject of "obey" in my last post...but if you look up the definition, "submit" and "obey" are not that different...at least in the context of a wife "submitting" to a husband.
I honestly don't see how that is so unappealing when there are numerous scriptures showing God's created headship order, and His "order" within marriage.
Eph 5:22
1 cor 11
1 cor 7
Titus 2
Col 3:18
1 Peter 3:1
That doesn't mean we (womankind) are meant to be obedient doormats. On the contrary...a good marriage based on God's headship order can work wonderfully! In our marriage, my husband always asks my opinion, weighs that against his on view and makes a decision for our family, truly based on his desire to do what's best for us.
But...since this thread is about dysfunctional marriages....I'd best try to stay on topic.
I'm going to leave that for now...come back at me! I'd love to see rebuttal scriptures...I am truly enjoying this. It's making me really think about why I believe what I do...
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 7:45:37 PM
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Sideways
Posts: 3703
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I'll try to get this back to dysfunctional patriarchy, as well. I think what scares me about giving 100% responsibility and authority to a man, is that (in my opinion) it has the potential to open a family up to more mistakes.
A man should ask his wife's opinion, but he doesn't have to, and he doesn't have to take her advice even if he does ask it. I think my husband and I are stronger and make better decisions when we agree not to make a major move unless both of us are completely comfortable with that major decision. I think it makes us less prone to error.
As your own post above showed, there are several definitions for the word submit, not all of them including obey. So, we just use different definitions or interpretations for the word submit and how they are used in the Bible, within the backdrop of the culture those words were written in.
Quite honestly I can see a lot that is unappealing, even for a dedicated Christian about a strict patriarchy. But I think that many of us do practice some degree of patriarchy, but it's all about degrees. It's all about how those verses and Biblical interpretation is put into practice for our family.
My father was absolutely the head of his family, but if I interpreted my parents' marriage correctly, they didn't walk away from the table of a major decision unless both were comfortable with the decision. If there was ever a major decision that my dad "had the final say on", I wasn't aware of it.
I have to work on submitting to my husband a lot, in the sense of listening to him and really respecting what he was to say. He is one of those men who often just wants to make his wife happy and can be overpowered if I don't tread lightly and back off sometimes. I still have a say, but I don't have to talk all the time. 
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 9:33:33 PM
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phosadaud
Posts: 10593
Joined: 9/19/2005
From: Washington State
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BlessedMamaofmany
Back to the subject at hand. I addressed the subject of "obey" in my last post...but if you look up the definition, "submit" and "obey" are not that different...at least in the context of a wife "submitting" to a husband.
I honestly don't see how that is so unappealing when there are numerous scriptures showing God's created headship order, and His "order" within marriage.
Eph 5:22
1 cor 11
1 cor 7
Titus 2
Col 3:18
1 Peter 3:1
I think there are subtle differences in submit verses obey. Like I noted in Ephesians 5:22; 6:1; 6:5 - it says for wives to submit to their husbands and children are to obey their parents - and later slaves to obey their masters. I think it's significant that the same word isn't used here. I believe that was intentional. Some patriarchies treat submit the same as obey here and view a wife as more of an additional kid rather than a partner and a helpmate. Wives are not children so to use the same term as how children are to defer to their parents seems a little derogatory. I know not all view obey in this way, but for me, that's what obey conveys. It's why I would never vow to "obey" my husband in our wedding vows but wouldn't have an issue with "submit". From afar they may look the same (as in the husband having the final call), but in practice, I believe it works out differently.
Men are charged with being the spiritual leader of the home. A godly man will not take advantage of that and a godly woman will not undermine that leadership. To me that is what submission is about. It's about building up the man to be the spiritual leader he is called - not about bowing down at his feet to acquiese to his whims. The fact is, if our husbands are not being godly leaders and not loving their families and providing for them, "obeying" IMHO would dishonor them because it would be a lie - proclaiming their leadership when they have none. Submit, on the other hand, is all about building them up to be the leaders God calls them to be. I don't know if that makes sense to anyone but me, but there you have it.
Another thing to note is Hebrews 13:17 Obey your leaders and submit to their authority.
Obey - as in follow their commands.
Submit - as in recognize and honor their authority.
This may seem like straining gnats, but I believe this subtle difference is very important.
Obey has extremely different connotations than submit - especially in our society. Obey in our society is used in unequal relationships: a parent and a child; a Major and a private; a police officer and a citizen; a judge and a defendant; a person and a dog; etc. Submit has to do with keeping order & making things function. It is used between equals. Why equals? Because it recognizes that we all bring something to marriage. We each have unique giftings and ways at looking at things. That doesn't mean the roles are the same - it means we are ONE in purpose and unity. It's why Paul tells believers to submit to one another out of reverance for Christ - not to obey one another. It's about love and about unity - not about following the orders of a superior (which is what obey connotes).
quote:
That doesn't mean we (womankind) are meant to be obedient doormats. On the contrary...a good marriage based on God's headship order can work wonderfully! In our marriage, my husband always asks my opinion, weighs that against his on view and makes a decision for our family, truly based on his desire to do what's best for us.
And I have no issue with that at all. We should ALL function in that manner in all our decisions. I have no issue with men who step up to the plate to be godly providers of their family. That is AWESOME! If more men did that, I believe the world would be a much better place.
So when does submitting and obeying become dysfunctional? A family can be very traditional and very strict in their observance of obeying/submitting and not be dysfunctional. What you described with your husband doesn't sound dysfunctional at all because you husband is following "Part B" of the marriage equation. He is using his authority to love you and provide for you. Now, I don't believe there is a formula for how this "looks" and each family needs to find how this operates best for them. What works best in one family will tear another family to pieces. We are all different - I think that's why God didn't spell out the practicalities of what this looks like.
So, getting to the OP, I think patriarchies become dysfunctional when Part B is missing in the marriage. When husbands are like one of my great uncle's who (as my grandfather said) shirked his husbandly duties because he did what he wanted to do and when he wanted to do it with no thoughts to his family. When husbands use their authority simply to be an authority instead of as a servant. Dysfunctional is when the husband tries to fulfill his role as well as his wife's role in the family to "control" his family. Dysfunctional is when his concern is more about being "obeyed" than it is about building his wife up to be who God intended her to be.
_____________________________
~Kristin~
Resume Quotations: "Reason for leaving last job: The owner gave new meaning to the word 'paranoia.' I prefer to elaborate privately."
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/8/2008 11:13:50 PM
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Kath
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This is going down the trail into One Stop territory. Please be careful.
Thanks
Kath
Please do not comment on this action in the community or send me a PM about it. If you have questions, comments or concerns please email Fritz at community@salemwebnetwork.com allowing time for a reply. Thanks!
< Message edited by Kath -- 9/9/2008 3:37:28 PM >
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RE: Patriarchal Dysfunctional Families - 9/10/2008 1:11:42 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4093
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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As to the whole obey/submit subject - a pastor (of a control oriented congregation) explained it this way:
Submission and obedience are usually the same thing but not always. You can obey without submitting and you can submit without obeying.
Example of submitting w/out obeying: If the leader tells you to do something blatantly unbiblical. You can say to them that you would love to do what they say and you honor their position/office but as it is not biblical (or unethical or illegal) you cannot comply.
Example of obeying w/out submitting: A young boy keeps standing up in church. His dad tells him to sit down but he refuses. So dad spanks him and when they get back to their seats he sits the boy in the chair. The kid then says "I may be sitting down on the outside but on the inside I am still standing up."
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