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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/14/2008 5:27:08 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
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I was thinking about this thread this morning in church, because today is Holy Cross Sunday for churches who observe "special days." (For those who tend to get agitated about such things, please read Romans 14.)
Anyway, the blurb on the front page of the bulletin says, "This festival, which originated in the fourth century, celebrates the triumph of the cross. Paul reminds us that Christ crucified is the power and wisdom of God. As Moses put a serpent on a pole to be a source of healing for the Israelites, we lift high the cross as the sign of our salvation. Each time we make the sign of the cross we remember our baptism into the death and resurrection of Christ."
Today's scripture readings included Numbers 21:4-9, where Moses made a bronze serpent, John 3:13-17, where Jesus made the comparison to himself and the bronze serpent, and I Corinthians 1:18-24, where Paul proclaims "Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, but to those who are called, ... the power of God and the wisdom of God."
We also had a baptism and a first communion, which tied in with today's emphasis on the cross. So my take on this is that even though the New Testament doesn't command us to have "special days" and religious symbols like crosses and crucifixes, to me they are very valuable reminders and I would miss them if they weren't there.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 12:45:12 AM
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kisstheson
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i appreciate hearing about your speacial dsy. I'm sure it was full of meaning and spritually connected you with christ. thanks for the scriptures.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 12:11:31 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
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I would generally say that protestant churches focus is on Christ...not the instrument of His death.
Other than communion and baptism, again I would say in a general sence, protestantism has no special ceremonies or symbols that have any kind of spiritual impact.
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
The first churches were in houses...no adornments etc. I like the simplicity of Christ being the focus of our worship and not to let all these other MANifestations come in between.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 2:14:37 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I would generally say that protestant churches focus is on Christ...not the instrument of His death.
Other than communion and baptism, again I would say in a general sence, protestantism has no special ceremonies or symbols that have any kind of spiritual impact.
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
The first churches were in houses...no adornments etc. I like the simplicity of Christ being the focus of our worship and not to let all these other MANifestations come in between.
the OT was full of physical and ceremonial representations of God and his principles that were God initiated, so those things are not evil in themselves.
define idols.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 9:30:58 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
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quote:
not evil in themselves.
Not evil. Its not necessarily wrong.
Its wrong to say its necessary or even needed.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 10:17:54 PM
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x_SoliDeoGloria_x
Posts: 158
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
I would generally say that protestant churches focus is on Christ...not the instrument of His death.
Other than communion and baptism, again I would say in a general sence, protestantism has no special ceremonies or symbols that have any kind of spiritual impact.
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
The first churches were in houses...no adornments etc. I like the simplicity of Christ being the focus of our worship and not to let all these other MANifestations come in between.
I went to a service at one of these "no-frills" churches last year around Christmas time. No crosses or crucifixes. No candles. No paraments. No fonts. None of these disturbing, churchy things. Just a big stage with a drum set, amplifiers and speakers, strobe lights, a fog machine, a big Christmas tree.
I found that to be disturbing.
_____________________________
"Not by work going before grace shall I deserve grace, nor by my work following grace shall I deserve eternal life; but to him that believes, sin is pardoned and righteousness imputed." -- Martin Luther
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 10:22:52 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1070
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
quote:
not evil in themselves.
Not evil. Its not necessarily wrong.
Its wrong to say its necessary or even needed.
so you don't mean evil when you say idols. so, define idols.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/15/2008 10:48:35 PM
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delete123
Posts: 975
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
The first churches were in houses...no adornments etc. I like the simplicity of Christ being the focus of our worship and not to let all these other MANifestations come in between.
Actually during the time of persecution of the saints they used symbols on their homes and business so one believer could identify another.
According to the book og Hebrews which is a dispensational book, there will be a time when this event happens again.
If you and I are here, would you consider it an idol then?
I do not understand why you are offended if a church decides to display a cross?
It was the works on that cross that saved you? I also do not believe it is a denominational issue. I belonged to a SBC back east where they displayed the cross as well as a flags and a globe. Which showed their outreach program of spreading the Gospel across the nations.
I also belonged after several years of service to that church to a non denom, who also displayed a cross.
So what is your dismay? Are you ashamed to be reminded?
You have such a great testimony I do not understand where you are coming from.
I am not talking about wearing adornments, but seeing the cross in a place where one worships.
Personally I find that a lot of mega churches do not condone crosses in their church as hey do not want it to *distract* a person from their focus on themselves and how they can understand who they are and contribute.
To me this means the focus is on oneself and not the One who gave you the opportunity to be you.
And if the reminder is so apalling, then why even nail your own sins to it? Why don't you carry your sin, since the cross seems so irrelevant to you?
It's almost as bad as the new Shrine that was built, they have this huge cross on top of their building, yet when you walk into the sanctuary, they have a man floating in the air, now that is bizarre, who are they worshipping? Or focusing on ?
Just a few thoughts and questions
CRH
< Message edited by delete123 -- 9/15/2008 10:57:34 PM >
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 1:08:20 AM
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kisstheson
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Yup!
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 1:12:04 AM
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kisstheson
Posts: 965
Joined: 5/1/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
<b>I would generally say that protestant churches focus is on Christ...not the instrument of His death.</b>
Other than communion and baptism, again I would say in a general sence, protestantism has no special ceremonies or symbols that have any kind of spiritual impact.
As I suspected this is a denominational issue...or doctrine. I find these things, idols, to be...disturbing. Using a...thing....in worship or to remind you of Christ? Having all these ceremonies and "traditions"? Its disturbing.
The first churches were in houses...no adornments etc. I like the simplicity of Christ being the focus of our worship and not to let all these other MANifestations come in between.
I am a protestant and I am offended that you would imply we focus on Christ and catholics don't because they have a cross. Focusing on the inturment of His death reminds us of Christ.
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 7:46:50 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
Joined: 4/16/2005
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quote:
during the time of persecution of the saints they used symbols on their homes Thisa isn't the same as putting down churches that do not have crosses in them. Apples and oranges....
and if this kind of persecution comes the last symbol a christian would use is the cross.
quote:
when you say idols.
When I use the term idols in this discussion I am talking about people who genuflect over the cross. Who need the cross to know Christ. To put down people who do not need this...crutch. To me, that is very disturbing.
quote:
No crosses or crucifixes. No candles. No paraments. No fonts. None of these disturbing, churchy things. Just a big stage with a drum set, amplifiers and speakers, strobe lights, a fog machine, a big Christmas tree.
I found that to be disturbing.
Why? Why would surroundings make the preached word not what it is supposed to be? If Christ is preached, who needs all those man made traditions?
While such surroundings may not be your cup of tea, it shouldn't disturb you. Were people bowing down to the tree? The stage? Its been said here that some bow down before a cross....that...is very disturbing.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 10:30:02 AM
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Kath
Posts: 17142
Joined: 2/28/2005
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quote:
Just a big stage with a drum set, amplifiers and speakers, strobe lights, a fog machine, a big Christmas tree.
I found that to be disturbing.
I would find that disturbing too. Almost like a production of some sort instead of worship.
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 10:32:00 AM
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ta_mosquito
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Joined: 3/31/2005
From: from MN, now in Ontario :D
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kath
quote:
Just a big stage with a drum set, amplifiers and speakers, strobe lights, a fog machine, a big Christmas tree.
I found that to be disturbing.
I would find that disturbing too. Almost like a production of some sort instead of worship.
Yeah, I was thinking that that church doesn't sound "no frills" to me - they have different frills, but they still have frills.
_____________________________
Tricia
"There's a fine line between being open-minded and empty-headed." ~Michael Coren
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RE: Christians dissing the cross - 9/16/2008 11:27:12 PM
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kisstheson
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listen...and please THINK about this...if someone goes up for an altar call to repent and ask Jesus into their life and there is a cross on stage, the same person kneels down, are they worshipping the cross? Of course not and its ridiculous to say so. When you see people kneeling or "bowing" before the cross they are honoring what Jesus did for them. Its as simple as that. So why do people try to paint others who worship Christ in this manner as idol worshippers? Nothing could be further from the truth.
Next time you have a Good friday service and you go up and nail your sins to a cross perhaps you should protest. "No! That cross is an idol. That's not Jesus!"
_____________________________
This is my Beloved. This is my friend. (Song of Solomon)
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