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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 11:31:50 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
Abortion was widely practiced during the times of the old and new testament and the bible does not specifically condemn this.
could you comment on exodus 21
22 "If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges {decide.} 23 "But if there is {any further} injury, then you shall appoint {as a penalty} life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.
this passage seems to speak to the injury of the infant and gives a detailed description for the punishment- eye for eye
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 1:01:19 PM
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tcasboy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
In biblical times, not even infants or children were considered "persons". Reference please. Post #17 above indicates your opinion is faulty.
quote:
By definition, murder is the "illegal" killing of a human No, by definition murder is the killing of an innocent human being. Are you claiming unborn children are guilty of some capital offense?
quote:
Can we apply this to all killing of innocent persons, such as the bomber pilot ordered to destroy the house of a known terrorist knowing he will also kill the terrorists small children? How does this hypothetical relate to the OP, tcasboy? Are you really interested in discussing "Scriptures on Abortion" or just engaging us in your sociopolitical agenda?
Post 17 states what is true now and always. You cannot kill or injure someone else's child.
Words have meaning. Murder is a legal term that is define as:
"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse."
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/murder
Not so hypothetical. The situation described has occurred many times since 9/11. You cannot pick and choose which killing of innocent persons the bible proscribes just because some or convenient to your argument and some are not.
My point remains, there is NO explicit condemnation of abortion in the bible.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 1:07:30 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1629
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quote:
Words have meaning. Murder is a legal term that is define as:
"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse."
Then the question becomes, whose law are we judging by? Hitler's actions were legal in Germany, that doesn't make them right. Pornography is legal in America, that doesn't make it right. Abortion is legal in America, but that doesn't stop it from being murder.
quote:
My point remains, there is NO explicit condemnation of abortion in the bible.
There's also no explicit condemnation of shooting someone in the head with a shotgun in the Bible.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 2:13:31 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The bible is normally very specific about religious law, describing the nature of the offense in great detail as well as the punishment.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy%2022:13-29&version=49;
Why would it be so obtuse in regards to abortion. Why is there no straight forward reference to killing an unborn child?
On the contrary, this is a common misconception with regard to not just Ha Torah, but all the Scriptures. There are some details regarding some things, but there are many things that are not directly addressed by the Scriptures. There could be several reasons for this. Among them are the fact that it has already been addressed in relation to another subject, it is so out there that no direction is needed, common practice is acceptable or just that Adonai wishes us to seek personal direction. This is not an all inclusive list, nor are any of these reasons conclusive. Therefore, we must consult the whole council of Adonai, the written word, Adonai's Spirit, discussion with other believers, historical practice, etc.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 2:24:34 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
In biblical times, not even infants or children were considered "persons". One could kill their infant or sell their child into slavery if they wished.
The bible does not condom this practice either.
These are biblical times. Just because Ha Torah has different direction regarding how to deal with children than does the law of the USA does not mean Ha Torah does not regard them as persons. One must look at the complete code not just particular statutes in order to judge how a legal system works in practice. There are many things in the US legal code that make sense in light of the whole code, but sound cruel in isolation.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 5:14:48 PM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
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quote:
Post 17 states what is true now and always. You cannot kill or injure someone else's child. I have no idea what you're talking about here! It is a tragic fact that children are killed by people other than their parents every hour of every day all over this planet.
quote:
Words have meaning. Murder is a legal term that is define as:
"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse." No, murder is not merely a legal term. Its definition has been refined by legal fiat as you describe, but the correct linguistic definition of murder is taking an innocent life. Now, are unborn children innocent or do you refuse to answer because it ruins your "theory" of Scripture?
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/10/2008 10:36:28 PM
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makarizo
Posts: 2978
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
In biblical times, not even infants or children were considered "persons". One could kill their infant or sell their child into slavery if they wished.
The bible does not condom this practice either.
in Jer 7 God calls calls it detestable.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 12:29:55 AM
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tcasboy
Posts: 38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
Post 17 states what is true now and always. You cannot kill or injure someone else's child. I have no idea what you're talking about here! It is a tragic fact that children are killed by people other than their parents every hour of every day all over this planet.
quote:
Words have meaning. Murder is a legal term that is define as:
"The unlawful killing of another human being without justification or excuse." No, murder is not merely a legal term. Its definition has been refined by legal fiat as you describe, but the correct linguistic definition of murder is taking an innocent life. Now, are unborn children innocent or do you refuse to answer because it ruins your "theory" of Scripture?
The question is not whether the unborn are innocent. Of course they are (except to those who believe in original sin). The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. The question is whether the author of the bible passage intended to include the unborn in the passage proscribing the killing of innocent persons.
If the author did not intend to include abortion in the proscription, how would it have been phrased it differently?
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 3:53:22 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The question is not whether the unborn are innocent. Of course they are (except to those who believe in original sin). The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. The question is whether the author of the bible passage intended to include the unborn in the passage proscribing the killing of innocent persons.
Given the bible's foundational belief in justice on what ground does anyone believe the unborn are worthy of death normally reserved for someone who has broken the law?
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 9:41:29 AM
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tcasboy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The question is not whether the unborn are innocent. Of course they are (except to those who believe in original sin). The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. The question is whether the author of the bible passage intended to include the unborn in the passage proscribing the killing of innocent persons.
Given the bible's foundational belief in justice on what ground does anyone believe the unborn are worthy of death normally reserved for someone who has broken the law?
The foundation of the Bible is not justice, at least not in the modern sense of the word. The OT is full or descriptions of God punishing the innocent because of the sins of others. The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 9:58:58 AM
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Wild-Rose
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From: Upstate NY
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quote:
The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice.
Mercy! The Lord God Almighty had mercy on us! If you want to call it injustice to prove a point, then OK, but we understand the truth.
_____________________________
Wild-Rose
Rejoice that your name is written in heaven. Luke 10:20
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 10:18:06 AM
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tcasboy
Posts: 38
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Wild-Rose
quote:
The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice.
Mercy! The Lord God Almighty had mercy on us! If you want to call it injustice to prove a point, then OK, but we understand the truth.
My father was a scientist of some renown. He was a nuero-physiologist who made significant breakthroughs in neurology and EEG that has lessened the suffering of brain injury patients.
My mother was born a Catholic but lost her faith in God when as a little girl she watched her 2 brothers and her father be shot by the Nazis in Poland.
According to the evangelical tenants of salvation, they are both suffering eternal torture in Hell for eternity.
That me be justice to you, but not to me.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 10:40:50 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:
The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. They are alive and they are members of the human race - of course they are persons, tcasboy! Or do you want to find some "legal definition" to redefine "person" for your sociopolitical agenda?
quote:
The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice. quote:
According to the evangelical tenants of salvation, they are both suffering eternal torture in Hell for eternity.
That me be justice to you, but not to me. No, God's tenants and God's concept of salvation are the epitome of LOVE! I am truly sorrow you've never been exposed to true evangelicalism, tcasboy. This thread is meant to discuss Scriptures on abortion - perhaps you would find answers to your spiritual needs on a different discussion. God bless your search for Him - God has already found you if you will let Him.
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 1:19:20 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The question is not whether the unborn are innocent. Of course they are (except to those who believe in original sin). The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. The question is whether the author of the bible passage intended to include the unborn in the passage proscribing the killing of innocent persons.
Given the bible's foundational belief in justice on what ground does anyone believe the unborn are worthy of death normally reserved for someone who has broken the law?
The foundation of the Bible is not justice, at least not in the modern sense of the word. The OT is full or descriptions of God punishing the innocent because of the sins of others. The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice.
Okie dokie... Enough for me...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/11/2008 4:35:37 PM
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Bluethread
Posts: 1424
Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
My father was a scientist of some renown. He was a nuero-physiologist who made significant breakthroughs in neurology and EEG that has lessened the suffering of brain injury patients.
My mother was born a Catholic but lost her faith in God when as a little girl she watched her 2 brothers and her father be shot by the Nazis in Poland.
According to the evangelical tenants of salvation, they are both suffering eternal torture in Hell for eternity.
That me be justice to you, but not to me.
I'm sorry for your lose and bitterness. However, according to the Scriptures, there is no way you can know your parents status before Adonai for sure. Even Jeffery Daumer and Adolf Hitler could have come to terms with Adonai for all we know. I doubt the latter, but I do not know for sure.
It is regretable that we judge Adonai by those who bare His image. However, we must remember it is an image and not the real thing. Men are not very gracious, Adonai is. The killing of innocents is an example of this. Your presumption is that man is innocent. None of us deserves to live in the presence of Adonai, because all of us have shown a propencity to reject His ways. Therefore, the fact that any of us are accepted by Adonai is a testimony to His grace.
May Adonai be gracious to you and give you peace.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 9/12/2008 1:36:10 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3576
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quote:
ORIGINAL: frankman
There is no verse in the Bible that states abortion is wrong because in Bible times they did not have the medical know-how to do abortions. So the subject matter isn`t written about in the Holy Scriptures. However there is this verse in Jer.1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." God`s will for our life begins at conception. If men tempers with God`s will in any way men is sinning and will be punished accordingly if remaining unrepentant.  Therefore abortion is the murder of God`s divine will for that human being yet to be born.
Oh, but they did. They had the knowledged, they used it, and sometimes it worked. But they had it.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 10/8/2008 1:58:15 PM
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CityofGold
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i'm not a very bright individual.but we know that 1 of the 10 commanments is.thou shall not murder.and as we speak,we know that abortion is not on given at the 1st month of pregantance but all the way to the 9month.when the doctor will preform partial birth abortion.that is murder.the mother can actually feel the baby kicking and jerking as it is dieing.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 10/10/2008 11:12:16 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The question is not whether the unborn are innocent. Of course they are (except to those who believe in original sin). The question in not whether you believe the unborn are persons. The question is whether the author of the bible passage intended to include the unborn in the passage proscribing the killing of innocent persons.
Given the bible's foundational belief in justice on what ground does anyone believe the unborn are worthy of death normally reserved for someone who has broken the law?
The foundation of the Bible is not justice, at least not in the modern sense of the word. The OT is full or descriptions of God punishing the innocent because of the sins of others. The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice.
You mean man's sense of justice...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 10/11/2008 5:12:39 PM
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lightbeamrider
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Let's think a little outside the box here folks. Biologically life begins at conception. Biblically it has to do with the ''breath of life'' entering the body. I found two examples of this in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 2:7 ...Adam is formed from the dust of the ground and the breath of life is introduced after the body is formed? Genesis 2:7 is not explicit on this. There is also Ezekiel 37. The valley of dry bones. The body is formed first and the breath of life is introduced. Now one can apply these principles to the womb. At what point does the ''breath of life'' enter the fetus. At conception? No. No body is formed? U know i'm sure folks are gonna read this and smoke will be comming out of their ears. Biblically life begins when the breath of life is introduced and that does not necessarily mean conception.
The earliest reference i could find which directly addresses abortion is in the Didache. ''2. The second commandment in the Teaching means: Commit no murder, adultery, sodomy, fornication, or theft. Practise no magic, sorcery, abortion, or infanticide.''....''Beware of lust, my son, for lust leads to fornication. Likewise refrain from unclean talk and a roving eye, for these too can breed adultery.''
Perhaps we as Christians are whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. (Matt.23: 27-28) in that we seek change from the outside (banning abortion) while we tolerate fornication within our own ranks, lust within our hearts and have roving eyes. If i am the change i want to see in the world then i will not cherish lust in my heart and fornication is an absolute no no. Governments can legalize anything they want and they have. The Christian lives and dies by the standards set down in Scripture. Make no mistake about it, legalized abortion will end, it is just a question of when and under what circumstances. For now God our Father tolerates it.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 10/11/2008 5:48:57 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lightbeamrider
Let's think a little outside the box here folks. Biologically life begins at conception. Biblically it has to do with the ''breath of life'' entering the body. I found two examples of this in the Hebrew Scriptures. Genesis 2:7 ...Adam is formed from the dust of the ground and the breath of life is introduced after the body is formed? Genesis 2:7 is not explicit on this. There is also Ezekiel 37. The valley of dry bones. The body is formed first and the breath of life is introduced. Now one can apply these principles to the womb. At what point does the ''breath of life'' enter the fetus. At conception? No. No body is formed? U know i'm sure folks are gonna read this and smoke will be comming out of their ears. Biblically life begins when the breath of life is introduced and that does not necessarily mean conception.
No smoke... Actually I am laughing...
quote:
The earliest reference i could find which directly addresses abortion is in the Didache. ''2. The second commandment in the Teaching means: Commit no murder, adultery, sodomy, fornication, or theft. Practise no magic, sorcery, abortion, or infanticide.''....''Beware of lust, my son, for lust leads to fornication. Likewise refrain from unclean talk and a roving eye, for these too can breed adultery.''
Perhaps we as Christians are whitewashed tombs and hypocrites. (Matt.23: 27-28) in that we seek change from the outside (banning abortion) while we tolerate fornication within our own ranks, lust within our hearts and have roving eyes. If i am the change i want to see in the world then i will not cherish lust in my heart and fornication is an absolute no no. Governments can legalize anything they want and they have. The Christian lives and dies by the standards set down in Scripture. Make no mistake about it, legalized abortion will end, it is just a question of when and under what circumstances. For now God our Father tolerates it.
My guess is the Christians who have no issue with abortion are the ones that tolerate fornication and lust...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 9:28:25 AM
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lightbeamrider
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Prove biblically life begins at conception as it relates to breath of life. Laughing and guessing people's motives proves nothing. Of course when u cannot make ur point logically, cheap shots and innuendo is the next best thing. Do u really mean to imply someone who views things somewhat differently from ur fixed position must be somehow morally corrupt? Do u exclude urself from lust? Good for u if u do. Luv the picture. It is unique in a strange sort of way.
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 11:10:53 AM
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drmark
Posts: 3143
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quote:
Prove biblically life begins at conception as it relates to breath of life. Both of the Biblical passages you have cited in support of "the breath of life" are irrelevant to this discussion on abortion since they are written in the context of God providing life to already formed adult human bodies. Many Scriptures have been posted on this thread which relate specifically to unborn children. You may "think outside the box" all you wish, lbr, but it does not change the truth of God's Word!
quote:
Do u really mean to imply someone who views things somewhat differently from ur fixed position must be somehow morally corrupt? Moral corruption is NOT defined by my position, or John's position, or anyone else's position. God's "fixed position" states that taking innocent life (which an unborn child certainly qualifies for) is morally corrupt. If you disagree, take it up with Him!
quote:
Do u exclude urself from lust? Good for u if u do. Umm, this is completely off-topic but I cannot let it pass without comment. All Christians must exclude ourselves from lust as commanded in 1 Cor 6:18. By the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit I do indeed exclude myself from lust for my own soul's good!
_____________________________
Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 12:19:39 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4073
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tcasboy
The foundation of the Bible is not justice, at least not in the modern sense of the word. Who said God has any interest in "the modern sense" of anything? quote:
The evangelical concept of salvation is the epitome of injustice. When did we get so arrogant to think we can define God's acts as "injustice?"
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Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
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RE: Scriptures on Abortion? - 11/4/2008 1:52:34 PM
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drmark
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quote:
When did we get so arrogant to think we can define God's acts as "injustice?" Well, it appears to me it started in Genesis chapter 3. When do you think, Dave?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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