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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/29/2008 6:26:15 PM
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disciplelife
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
BTW there is also a real possibility that even if this word "aionios" means eternal it may not even be a time description but a description of God.
"Eternal" judgment or "Eternal" fire may mean God's judgment and have nothing to do with a time frame.
"may", "if", "possibility"? Plato did not write or translate one single Bible. He used the word first? Grecians weren't speaking Greek before Plato? Nevertheless, what a horrible place this would be if, for a second, one could think "if I go to hell, I fall in and poof, I am disintegrated!". sounds pretty painless, I might even be up for that! Or, "I suffer in hell for awhile and am then whisked into Heaven, excellent!". Fat chance! Eternal life, in Heaven, with Jesus... eternal damnation and punishment in the bowels of hell. I chose Christ.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/29/2008 7:26:27 PM
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raivyne
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But cowards who turn back from following me, and those who are unfaithful to me, and the corrupt, and murderers, and the immoral, and those conversing with demons, and idol worshipers and all liars - their doom is in the Lake that burns with fire and sulpher. This is the Second Death. (Rev 21:8)
Then He will also say to those on the left hand, "Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (matt 25:41)
They will be tormented day and night forever and ever (rev 20:10)
And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life (matt 25:46)
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/29/2008 8:01:16 PM
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bob97
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It says the predominant meaning of aionios is not for just an age as implied in the Young's Translation but is forever or for all eternity.
Aionios is also used, meaning that unforgiven sin brings punishment lasting for ever and is not temporary as some would like to imply.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Bob
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/29/2008 9:23:55 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
may", "if", "possibility"? Plato did not write or translate one single Bible. He used the word first? Grecians weren't speaking Greek before Plato? Nevertheless, what a horrible place this would be if, for a second, one could think "if I go to hell, I fall in and poof, I am disintegrated!". sounds pretty painless
Plato writings have the first recorded uses of "aionios" from what i've read.
Yes Plato did'nt write bibles but the bible writers and translations are not inspired and subject to human bias.
The concordance defintions of "aionios" copy the bible translations because the writers grew up using the KJV and it's offspring.
I know of 3 bibles that translate "aionios" into age abiding or something similar.
1) Rotherham's
2)Youngs
3) Concordant Literal New Testament
If you guys are offended that i don't buy into the doctrine that God can only dish out eternal wrath , that's fine with me guys , believe what you think is right.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 9/30/2008 3:20:32 AM
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dyluck
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Steve.. the bible isn't about believing what we think is right... it is about what is right. That's why topics like this are started.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 9:43:30 AM
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Him4all
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bob97
It says the predominant meaning of aionios is not for just an age as implied in the Young's Translation but is forever or for all eternity.
Aionios is also used, meaning that unforgiven sin brings punishment lasting for ever and is not temporary as some would like to imply.
Seems pretty clear to me.
Bob
I have an original hardback book written by Thayer a hundred years ago that you might want to borrow. It's titled 'The Doctrine of Endless Torment'....not. But it is a scholarly work, but if the URL I gave you to read was too much, then this probably will be too. One must be willing to sacrifice all to get the pearl though. 
DR
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 10:10:26 AM
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dyluck
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I know that reply was to Bob97. The greek translation states that eternal (aionios) is forever. I don't think you need a scholor to "decipher" that. I hope he interceeded with this, the bible is a spiritual document, not a code to be deciphered.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 12:21:19 PM
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bob97
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DR…in an effort to settle this dispute I have just sent an E-Mail to God and just as soon as I get a reply I’ll get back to you.
Bob
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 12:58:10 PM
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theredhog
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quote:
DR…in an effort to settle this dispute I have just sent an E-Mail to God and just as soon as I get a reply I’ll get back to you.
Oh, you how Jesus was when someone tried to "pin Him down" with questions.... 
Back on a serious note..It seems that whichever side of the fence one is on is how they see the meaning of the word. It is obviously used as a "non-endless" word in some instances and a word that does imply endless in others. This disagreement won't be settled here but some who can't understand the concept of God, who is love, creating a place of endless torture for the people who don't believe in Him, might be encouraged by the info presented here in this thread. My hat's off to you, Steve.
No matter how you look at it, Endless Hell had to be the creation of God, for it to exist. He has to have full responsibility for it.
Basically, that is saying that God insists we believe in/love Him or He is going to burn us for the rest of eternity.
That sort of make one evaluate their feelings for God doesn't it? Do we love Him because we realize His love and goodness to us and the fact that He created us for Himself? Or, do we say we love Him because if we don't He is going to burn us forever?
Here is an excerpt from "AION--AIONIOUS" by John Wesley Hanson:
THE END OF AIONIAN THINGS.
Now the Jews have lost their eternal excellency; Aaron and his sons have ceased from their priesthood; the Mosaic system is superseded by Christianity; the Jews no longer possess Canaan; David and his house have lost the throne of Israel; the Jewish temple is destroyed, and Jerusalem is wiped out as the holy city; the servants who were to be bondmen forever are all free from their masters; Gehazi is cured of his leprosy; the stones are removed from Jordan, and the smoke of Idumea no longer rises; the righteous do not posses the land promised them forever; some of the hills and mountains have fallen, and the tooth of Time will one day gnaw the last of them into dust; the fire has expired from the Jewish altar; Jonah has escaped from his imprisonment; all these and numerous other eternal, everlasting things -- things that were to last forever, and to which the various aionian words are applied -- have now ended, and if these hundreds of instances must denote limited duration why should the few times in which punishments are spoken of have any other meaning? Even if endless duration were the intrinsic meaning of the word, all intelligent readers of the Bible would perceive that the word must be employed to denote limited duration in the passages above cited. And surely in the very few times in which it is connected with punishment it must have a similar meaning. For who administers this punishment? Not a monster, not an infinite devil, but a God of love and mercy, and the same common sense that would forbid us to give the word the meaning of endless duration, were that its literal meaning, when we see it applied to what we know has ended, would forbid us to give it that meaning when applied to the dealings of an Infinite Father with an erring and beloved child. But when we interpret it in the light of its lexicography, and general usage out of the Old Testament, and perceive that it only has the sense of endless when the subject compels it [emphasized by editor], as when referring to God, we see that it is a species of blasphemy to allow that it denotes endless duration when describing God's punishments.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 2:28:10 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
This disagreement won't be settled here but some who can't understand the concept of God, who is love, creating a place of endless torture for the people who don't believe in Him, might be encouraged by the info presented here in this thread. My hat's off to you, Steve.
Thanks redhog, Ultimately how you view what God does with unbelievers will be similar with how you view God.
Verses like Rev 22.17 and others give me hope.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 2:57:24 PM
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dyluck
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quote:
ORIGINAL: theredhog
This disagreement won't be settled here but some who can't understand the concept of God, who is love, creating a place of endless torture for the people who don't believe in Him, might be encouraged by the info presented here in this thread. My hat's off to you, Steve.
Well... you say God who created a place for endless torture for the people who don't believe in him.. Well that's wrong. God created it for the devil and his demons, not humans.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
Cursed with death by the way... The curse that befell man from God when Adam / Eve sinned.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 3:03:18 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
don't forget he ends with
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
do we believe that the righteous will be forever rewarded... i.e. live forever? If we believe that then why is it such a strech to believe eternal punishment is just that... eternal?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 3:29:42 PM
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abraxas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: dyluck
Well... you say God who created a place for endless torture for the people who don't believe in him.. Well that's wrong. God created it for the devil and his demons, not humans.
Okay but did God know exactly who would end up there, including humans?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 3:32:18 PM
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theredhog
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dyluck,
quote:
Well... you say God who created a place for endless torture for the people who don't believe in him.. Well that's wrong. God created it for the devil and his demons, not humans.
Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."
but then, Raivyne reminded us of the rest of it... quote:
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Even though He created the eternal fire for the devil and his angels, if endless Hell is true, He knew before He created anything that most of humanity would wind up there. The buck still stops with God...no other way to look at it.
Raivyne,
quote:
do we believe that the righteous will be forever rewarded... i.e. live forever? If we believe that then why is it such a strech to believe eternal punishment is just that... eternal?
If "that" punishment is endless Hell, it is a stretch to believe it because it is not a common truth throughout the BIble. The notion doesn't even show up till Daniel 12:2 then he only says they will be raised to shame. It makes no sense for God to create people then say they were created for Him, then burn them in Hell forever. Why did He want them? To burn them forever?
But, if "that" punishment is missing out on ruling and reigning with the Lord during certain ages or time periods, then I could see how it could be everlasting.
To be honest with you, as much as people think they believe in endless Hell, I don't think they do. If they did they would be frantically trying to keep people from going there. I just don't think they have any other option but to believe it because of how the Bible reads. And, don't seem to be wiling to look into the fact that the Bible could be mistranslated here and there, not without God's knowledge either. He does strange things.
Strange things or no...if we believe that He has our good at heart and that He loves us, and, we should be able to know that by the cross, we can respond to His calling/drawing with great enjoyment and no fear. He speaks too much about a love relationship with us for it to be a "forced" "fake" love on our part because we fear going to Hell, forever.
Maybe that is something we come to realize as we get older and have walked with the Lord a good while...don't know why some get a hold of it and some don't....
The evidence is in the Bible whether we choose to look at it or not.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 3:46:17 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
if we believe that He has our good at heart and that He loves us, and, we should be able to know that by the cross, we can respond to His calling/drawing with great enjoyment and no fear.
So why then, in your opinion, does the bible tell us to be fearful of the Judgement of God? God is love, but he is Just in his love.
quote:
Maybe that is something we come to realize as we get older and have walked with the Lord a good while...don't know why some get a hold of it and some don't....
I think its a bit presumptuous of you to assume someone isn't mature in their walk with Christ because they don't agree with you. We are all confined by our limited human understandings, and all humans are limited though they are also all different.
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Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 4:31:41 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
don't forget he ends with
"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." (Matt. 25:46)
I addressed this when i opened this thread. There are two other possible explanations.
1. The believers receive immortality at the resurrection so "age abiding" would not take way their immortality, therefore "aionios" can be translated here as age abiding instead of eternal and be consistent.
2. "Eternal" can be God's name and in fact it is used as God's name "Eternal One" therefore God's punishment does not necessarily mean eternal punishment, it's simply whatever punishment God deems as just. God judged Sodom by destroying them with fire.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 4:36:27 PM
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dyluck
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agreed raivyne.
Understand the nature in which all this happend. I can say this stared with the devil and this whole thing is so it will never happen again. God wants us to worship him and look to him because we want to, not because God forced us to.
Hell is a realisation to those into life that transgressing God is not dealt with lightly. We don't deal with a wishy washy God. We deal with a God that deals in absolutes. "I am the same yesterday, today and tomorrow".
God does not change.
The biggest conflict in the bible is when it says in the OT "God cannot justify the wicked" yet in the NT, he says "he justifies the wicked". How can that be? God does not change! Well... God's justice upon us the believers was appeased by Christ whom BECAME SIN on the cross as God turned his back on Christ. This IS the climax of the Gospel. The divine seperation of God and his Son... Jesus took our punishment when he died... not only in phyical death, but spiritual death. Why?? because he is God, he is the only one that can withstand the Wrath of God and the only one with the power to come out of it.
If you believe that we can earn life by burning away our sins in Hell, then you may be dealing in works salvation. Will one want to cease to exist in hell?? I can guarantee it, will it happen... Well we don't see it in the bible, so I would say no.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 4:59:43 PM
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raivyne
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quote:
ORIGINAL: steve7150
I addressed this when i opened this thread. There are two other possible explanations.
1. The believers receive immortality at the resurrection so "age abiding" would not take way their immortality, therefore "aionios" can be translated here as age abiding instead of eternal and be consistent.
2. "Eternal" can be God's name and in fact it is used as God's name "Eternal One" therefore God's punishment does not necessarily mean eternal punishment, it's simply whatever punishment God deems as just. God judged Sodom by destroying them with fire.
So the "Eternal One" really isn't eternal... only temporarily eternal? One day God will cease to exist because eternal doesn't really mean never-ceasing unless you chose to translate it that way...? seems nice, tidy and convenient.
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Good – God = 0
In the dark? Follow the Son!
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 6:50:11 PM
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Him4all
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raivyne,
quote:
So why then, in your opinion, does the bible tell us to be fearful of the Judgement of God? God is love, but he is Just in his love.
Did you see 'The Passion'? Do you remember when Jesus was scourged?
HEB 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
My opinion is that's a good reason to be fearful...and that's just if He's receiving you as a son. Why do you think He's scourging His own sons/us in this verse? I think it's good reason to be fearful...his judgments always are fearful...and they're always for a purpose and that is to break rebellion.
dyluck,
quote:
If you believe that we can earn life by burning away our sins in Hell,
Your very comment proves you don't get it. It isn't about anybody 'earning' endless life. That was purchased soley by Jesus for everyone. You didn't earn it if you're saved and neither did I and neither will they.
quote:
Well we don't see it in the bible, so I would say no.
You don't read enough bibles to make such a statement. There are translations out there that don't even have the word 'hell' in them. What are you going to do with them? Hell is in KJV 54 times, NIV 14 times, Young's Literal Translation....0 times. So as you can see hell kind of disappeared since the KJV and 'more correct' translations came along. We believe we understand why...do you?
steve7150,
quote:
2. "Eternal" can be God's name and in fact it is used as God's name "Eternal One" therefore God's punishment does not necessarily mean eternal punishment, it's simply whatever punishment God deems as just. God judged Sodom by destroying them with fire.
In what translation is God called "Eternal One"? I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with number 2 at this point. 
As far as Sodom is concerned, I guess they're better off than Capernum...which is gonna go to hell for eternity and be burned while all the homosexuals of Sodom get a lighter sentance...or at least I guess that must be what the following verse is saying.
LUK 10:12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city. 13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes. 14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you. 15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
DR
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 11:17:17 PM
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theredhog
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Raivyne and all involved,
Why fear the judgments of God? Because they are real. In my opinion, because people think they believe in endless Hell, which is so "unbelievable" if you really think about it, they don't really take into consideration the actual judgments of God. We are told to be cautious because the devil is out to get who he can.
Why fear the judgments of God? Ask the man who ran around on his wife and lost everything. Ask the person sitting in jail because they couldn't resist stealing just one more time. Ask the young wife who would love to be a mother but because of sewing her wild oats she ended up with std's and became sterile. Ask the young woman who killed her baby in the womb if she will ever forgive herself for it....
I really did not mean to come across as arrogant...I did say "maybe" I just wonder sometime how some see a bigger picture and some don't...., I know it could be because of many different factors.
I really don't think people believe in endless Hell like they think they do. If they did they would be frantically trying to keep people out. Do we warn friends and family if we have a virus they don't need to catch by being around us? Do we warn people when a storm is headed our/their way?
How many people have you, with heartfelt compassion, warned about Hell today? In the last week?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 11:41:42 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
I really don't think people believe in endless Hell like they think they do. If they did they would be frantically trying to keep people out. Do we warn friends and family if we have a virus they don't need to catch by being around us? Do we warn people when a storm is headed our/their way?
This is a very valid point , the idea of endless hell is so terrifying yet no one runs around warning folks. Did the apostles run around in Acts warning folks of endless hell? Yet they spent 3 1/2 years with Jesus. Did'nt they understand his warnings about "gehenna" the same way folks do now 2,000 years later.
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/1/2008 11:51:02 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
If you believe that we can earn life by burning away our sins in Hell, then you may be dealing in works salvation. Will one want to cease to exist in hell?? I can guarantee it, will it happen... Well we don't see it in the bible, so I would say no.
Paul said we will reap what we sow yet that would not provide salvation but the bible says that every knee will bow and every tongue confess the Lord.
Confession is voluntary so when and where and under what circumstances?
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RE: The Three Views of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:13:10 AM
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bob97
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This conversation is quickly becoming ridicules. Based on those who do not believe in a eternal hell it now becomes obvious that there is no such thing as eternal life for the righteous.
You use as a part of your proof the fact that the Young’s Translation interprets aiōnios as defining an age rather than eternity. If that be the case then the same translation also says that the righteous also have life for the same age and not eternity.
Matthew 25:46 ( YLT ) 46And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.’
Now where I come from and where I church, people are warned at every opportunity that hell in eternal. If I were a betting man I would be willing to bet that most of the churches attended by those not believing in an eternal hell also warn the same thing…HELL is eternal.
Bob
_____________________________
The LORD clears the road for me!
The LORD is my high ridge, my stronghold, my deliverer!
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