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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 1:45:39 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
so are we going to focus on looking for bad fruit or on good fruit?
Do you look for good spiritual fruit from occult meetings? Or Mormon meetings?
I look for GOD and HIS Presence Everywhere.....
You won't find God in those places. At least not the God of the Bible.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 1:58:34 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
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emerging,
I fail to understand you position. Are we to just stand back and pray only stating what we are for? Are we to stand back and let people be lead in error being thought a different Jesus and a different gospel? Are we not to test the spirits to see if it is from God? When we see that it isn't from God what then, just sit back, don't let anyone know what is wrong?
You shouldn't use the term heresy hunter because that is the term those who are exposed use.
You think God is telling anyone to physically attach another by kicking him/her in the stomach to cure so disease?
You think God is sending angels to people to teach them how to prophecy? Note in scripture no one needed to be thought how to prophecy. God either gave a person a prophecy or He didn't. Also there were no 90% prophets. You had to be right 100% of the time.
Also when I said exposing error is the most loving thing, that wasn't meant to be absolute.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 1:59:53 PM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 2:01:34 PM
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teclils
Posts: 110
Joined: 5/16/2008
Status: offline
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Really?
hmmm...
Was not GOD with Daniel and the other 3 in Babylon....Was not GOD with Daniel when he was thrown in the lion's den..was not the LORD walking with the 3 in the firey furnace...was not the light in the midst of darkness? Are not the Wheat mixed in with the Tares?
sorry GOD is EVERYWHERE HE is Always somewhere in the midst of darkness...it may be a small light but HE is there
GOD is a MIGHTY GOD HE is Everywhere....open your eyes
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 2:08:07 PM
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 2:45:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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ROFL..............Here We Go Again!
Those with understanding will understand my following statements.
when you attend a church or hear a guest speaker in your church,
it only takes a few minutes to realize they have been "taught" at
RHEMA Bible School. I'm less than an hour from there, read all the
materials offered there, sent my
son there, so I have some familiarity with them.
There are churches that the rhema students have started around
the area. Do they actually teach the doctrines of the Bible? Not really.
They teach the doctrines of the rhema bible school with is the WoF
teachings of it's founder Kenneth Hagin.
Now, another wild sucker shoot springs up from those attending Lakeland.
No surprise at all. What will they be doing and teaching? The same nonsense
at Lakeland. No Bible required, we've got miracles! So, don't carry that
dead weight to church.
Our misguided brethren will just need more time and experience to see the light.
These things will keep popping up here and there just like the WoF stuff is still
going full bore. While those truly seeking the truth of the Bible may have to
continue their journey looking for a congregation truly understands biblical doctrines.
They're out there, just not as noticeable as the smoke and mirrors.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 2:59:52 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1510
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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This just re-affirms Matthew 24:24:
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.?"
Let's see if Wagner, Sheets, Joyner, Bickle, and the rest of the ICA/Latter Rain crowd have learned their lesson or will they blindly run off and promote this phony revival too.
Remember, the circus that was Toronto eventually spawned Brownsville.
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 3:09:31 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
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Oh my..........start your engines...........
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 3:13:07 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan
This just re-affirms Matthew 24:24:
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect--if that were possible.?"
Let's see if Wagner, Sheets, Joyner, Bickle, and the rest of the ICA/Latter Rain crowd have learned their lesson or will they blindly run off and promote this phony revival too.
Remember, the circus that was Toronto eventually spawned Brownsville.
Good Point.
Will Sheets blow the whistle?
Or, wait until many more are destroyed by this?
Or, ignore it all together.
We'll see if there's any real leadership on this one.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 3:25:40 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
Status: offline
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quote:
A member of one church had a vision of angels beating on the drums during the song service. She also saw a vision of angels marching up and down the center isle!
This Feather was discovered on one of the drums.
The feather was not there earlier during rehearsal!
We're back to the angels have feathers.
From the website on post #12.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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Seeking After Signs, Wonder, Miracles .... - 9/8/2008 3:44:56 PM
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vja4Him
Posts: 30
Joined: 10/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
Prock said the outpouring began in earnest in April, after the Kaylors visited the Lakeland, Fla., meetings led by revivalist Todd Bentley. “[The Kaylors] had some signs and wonders happen in their meetings, but I think they got some good fresh fire and a fresh impartation during their time [in Lakeland],” said Prock, who traveled twice this summer to Bentley’s meetings.
Enough said. Regarding their signs and wonders, gold fillings are indicative of what? That their God can't heal a tooth properly?
Or maybe they are just lookng for God to give them something ... money, gold, feathers, jewels, wind, clouds, smoke, mist, prophecies (hungry for knowing the future, seems to be in the realm of fortune telling ...), fame, prestige, emtotional high, or see angels, or whatever it is they are seeking after.
_____________________________
-- vja4Him
-- http://www.vjandrews.com/index.html
-- http://www.vjandrews.com/andrewsblog.html
-- http://www.angelfire.com/ca2/VernAndrews/Creation01.html
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 4:26:30 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Propitiation
Here is the official website for future reference and research. http://www.winchesteroutpouring.com/
This is great! An angel feather on the trap set! All we have to do is analyze it and get the angel DNA to cure diseases and have mutant babies!
The only problem is it's NOT an angel feather and when the ether wears off and everybody realizes this they'll decide that doesn't matter because it's just ALL of God...even though somebody put a duck or chicken or whatever feather on a drum.
Wake up, God's people!
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 4:29:22 PM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
But let's be honest. Most finger pointing and heresy hunting is not done from our knees with tears in our eyes, pleading with those we percieve as "lost" to return like we would our own prodigal son. More often than not it is done from a position of self-righteousness that seeks to separate "them" from "us." We are still like the disciples running after Jesus asking if we could please, pretty please, call fire down from heaven upon the filthy Samaritans. What a wonderful way to assert our "rightness" and their "wrongness." As I recall, Jesus didn't like that idea.
How would you know the motives of MOST people who expose false teachings? I used to be a part of the wof movement and my heart cries out to all those who continue to fall into these traps like I did. If I care about somebody... I don't sit back and watch them continue to walk down the railroad track with a train coming straight at them.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 4:38:01 PM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 4:47:33 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1809
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
This is great! An angel feather on the trap set! All we have to do is analyze it and get the angel DNA to cure diseases and have mutant babies!
Doesn't sound like a whole lot of gut-wrenching prayer for our brothers and sisters who are percieved to be decieved.
Let me know when you get to the part where you tell them they are deceived...like I just did.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 4:49:17 PM
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Propitiation
Posts: 73
Joined: 6/18/2007
Status: offline
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[/quote]
Very well. Then can I ask what positive effect gossiping about them on a message board is doing for real people in a real place in a real plight? Does scripture enjoin us to broadcast to the world our distaste for someone or their doctrine or how they teach or does it instruct us to go to them privately and in person in prayful hopes of redeeming them and bringing them to repentance?
[/quote]
Actually God used forums like this to direct me to the bible to see where I was in error. I jumped into a movement right after God saved me not knowing much of the bible. God used this forum to build a passion in me to study His word and to rightly discern it through hermeneutics.
Error needs to be brought forth in public when you are advertising it publicly to the masses. I'm not attacking the persons faith or their heart. I'm concerned more about its roots in the Lakeland movement and its lack of teaching on Repentance and Holy living.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 4:55:20 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
so are we going to focus on looking for bad fruit or on good fruit?
Do you look for good spiritual fruit from occult meetings? Or Mormon meetings?
I look for GOD and HIS Presence Everywhere.....
You won't find God in those places. At least not the God of the Bible.
So God is limited to being only where doctrine is rightly aligned?
Scripture seems to suggest otherwise - that Jesus is Lord of heaven AND earth and is everywhere.
I'm sorry. Is there something you fail to understand? You won't find the God of the bible being thought there. I was in no way suggesting what you assumed my meant.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 6:37:12 PM
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solarflare
Posts: 798
Status: offline
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quote:
Very well. Then can I ask what positive effect gossiping about them on a message board is doing for real people in a real place in a real plight? Does scripture enjoin us to broadcast to the world our distaste for someone or their doctrine or how they teach or does it instruct us to go to them privately and in person in prayful hopes of redeeming them and bringing them to repentance?
Ever seen the movie "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest'?
I'm a real person in a real place.....I wish someone had shouted at me at the top of their lungs regarding false teaching before I became involved.
Go to these false teachers privately? While they shout their blasphemous bile from our TV sets and lay wait for unsuspecting people? Think not!!!
Redeem them? How about the 1000's they have laid waste to? I'm more interested in redeeming them. THAT's Why I said 'start your engines'.
WOOOOOOHOOOOO! WATCH OUT! The cuckoos are flying again!!!
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 9:57:29 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1136
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
emerging: That doesn't change any of what I said. Sometimes we fall into the trap of assuming our way of evangelism is the only way. I know nothing of this group and really don't care. I find it a waste of time to constantly be pointing fingers. Rather, as someone in their church said, we can join together in praying that God use every means out there (poorly or well done) to draw people to Christ and to transform the world.
1. Lakeland and it's spin-offs do not qualify as EVANGELISM. They qualify as moves to draw people AWAY from Christ.
Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naïve people.
Matt 24:23 “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect – if that were possible.”
Col 2:18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
1 Tim 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.
2. God's method for us to draw people to Christ is through the gospel message, not through false signs and wonders which only serve to lead people astray.
2 Thess 2:13 But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers loved by the Lord, because from the beginning God chose you to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth. 14 He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.
Eph 1:11 In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will, 12 in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, might be for the praise of His glory. 13 And you were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in Him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession – to the praise of His glory.
Rom 10:14 How, then, can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
quote:
Have you spoken privately to the leader of this church yet? We are also commanded not to gossip.
Gossip? Child4Jesus was in no way gossiping. These are PUBLIC matters that are on record and we therefore have the right to discuss them publically. Child4Jesus made some excellent points and asked you some honest questions... which you totally failed to answer.
quote:
Each of the instances mentioned in scripture about rebuke and testing the spirits were instances that involved real people in real time with real situations presented before them.
Reality check: We ARE real people in real time with real situations presented before us. Got any other swell arguments like that? And no, we don't have to have a relationship before we can point out error. This nonsense that we can only speak if we have a personal relationship with someone is a modern lie rather than a Biblical truth.
Don't say a word of warning to anyone, don't take a stand on anything if you want. Remain silent. Your choice. For me and many others here, we choose to obey God's word to love our neighbor, which means telling them the truth.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 10:47:12 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2742
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
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In terms of evangelism, there are a variety of styles and methods that can be used such as EE, Roman Road, friendship evangelism, crusades, etc. The improtant thing is that the message of the cross is protrayed.
What is presented in the events such as Toronto, Pensacola, Lakeland, and now Winchester is mere theatrics, Is the cross and repentance presented? I holiness in the midst of suffering presented?
The Bible clearly says there will be false teachers and false miracles to deceive even the elect. The bible calls for false teachers to be exposed. In the parable about the wheat and the tares, I believe this speaks of followers.
We can and should show an individual what they are believing in is contary to scripture, but they in the end must make the decision to leave an apostate church.
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[Deleted] - 9/8/2008 10:59:51 PM
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[Deleted by Admins]
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 11:42:25 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1136
Joined: 7/22/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
emerging: wow, you told me! Thank you for that.
So now you're going to cop an attitude after falsely accusing folks here of not loving those we disagree with, being wrong-headed for following the Bible's command to test all things and warn others to turn away from false teachers, putting ourselves in the judgment seat, gossiping, and basically telling us to keep our mouths shut??
All of that aside, you have not addressed the scriptures presented to you. Start with these:
Rom 16:17 I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naïve people.
2 Jn 1:9 Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. 11 Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
Tit 3:10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him. 11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
It says 'Keep away from them', 'Do not welcome him', and 'Have nothing to do with him'. How does that work, exactly? When false teachers enter a church, should the congregation scurry to one side while allowing the teacher to remain and even teach? Obviously not.
Question: How do the above passages fit into your belief that we must allow false teachers to remain among us and say nothing?
Question: Who is 'him' and 'them'?? Unless false teachers were exposed and the information was made public, how did the church know who to keep away from?
1 Tim 5:20 Those who sin are to be rebuked publically, so that the others may take warning.
Well, so much for keeping everything private. There are times to keep issues private and times to make them public, such as when someone endangers the rest of the flock.
And here's the clincher:
1 Cor 5:4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. 6 Your boasting is not good. Don’t you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast – as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth. 9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people – 10 not at all meaning the people of this world [non-believers] who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother [believer] but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside of the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”
Oh... where's the love? It's there, but it's just not how you personally define it. According to you, Paul had absolutely no right to say these things and expel anyone from the church because you are clinging to one misapplied passage. Biblically, God calls for the church to practice discipline for several reasons. One, to hopefully bring those in sin to repentance and save them from destruction. Two, to protect the flock. That's real love.
Please address these scriptures and reconcile them with your stated position.
_____________________________
Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/8/2008 11:51:09 PM
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colliefan
Posts: 2742
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
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quote:
Oh... where's the love? It's there, but it's just not how you personally define it. According to you, Paul had absolutely no right to say these things and expel anyone from the church because you are clinging to one misapplied passage. Biblically, God calls for the church to practice discipline for several reasons. One, to hopefully bring those in sin to repentance and save them from destruction. Two, to protect the flock. That's real love.
and the conclusion to this tough love is this
2 Cor 2:5 - 11 (HCSB) 5If anyone has caused pain, he has not caused pain to me, but in some degree—not to exaggerate£—to all of you. 6The punishment by the majority is sufficient for such a person, 7so now you should forgive£ and comfort him instead; otherwise, this one may be overwhelmed by excessive grief. 8Therefore I urge you to confirm your love to him. 9It was for this purpose I wrote: so I may know your proven character,£ if you are obedient£ in everything. 10Now to whom you forgive anything, I do too. For what I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, it is for you in the presence of Christ, 11so that we may not be taken advantage£ of by Satan; for we are not ignorant of his intentions.£
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RE: Winchester Outpouring-here we go again - 9/9/2008 12:11:24 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6113
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
quote:
ORIGINAL: teclils
so are we going to focus on looking for bad fruit or on good fruit?
Do you look for good spiritual fruit from occult meetings? Or Mormon meetings?
I look for GOD and HIS Presence Everywhere.....
So you would worship and pray alongside occult members and Jehovah Witnesses?
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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