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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/10/2008 5:20:53 PM
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solarflare
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Yuh know, I don't think you are being entertained. But, I do think you need to let it go. Don't take to heart some of the negative posts on here.
Just let the thing go. I usually avoid the 'personal'type threads on here, but I did address yours........yes, it is a scandal.. there is nothing you can do. I mean, would you exhume a dead body to make sure it's dead?
please...............you need to get on with it........ happens all the time
Get over it.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 6:19:28 AM
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buckifn
Posts: 1760
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quote:
Any kind of hanky panky would have been picked upon by mom.
That is not true. Abuse often happens at home, at church, and other places where people are close by everyday. Unfortunately, many of those people develop the same attitude expressed on here..."ignore it and it will go away" The truth it it never does.
There are serious internal issues within a man in ministry who allows a young girl to sit on his lap and then posts the pictures on the internet. No good friend would allow a man to keep going down this road which is sure to bring disaster.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 6:35:18 AM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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quote:
quote:
Any kind of hanky panky would have been picked upon by mom.
That is not true. Abuse often happens at home, at church, and other places where people are close by everyday. Unfortunately, many of those people develop the same attitude expressed on here..."ignore it and it will go away" The truth it it never does.
There are serious internal issues within a man in ministry who allows a young girl to sit on his lap and then posts the pictures on the internet. No good friend would allow a man to keep going down this road which is sure to bring disaster.
From the sounds of the OP the man and his wife spent quite a bit of time at the parents house. I would think if anything objectionable was seen or felt, the mom would have stepped up and said something, likewise the wife.
It just doesn't make sense for these two women to have not had a problem with it, but people in the church do.
It also tells me that people a re going by appearances. Things just aren't always what they appear to be.
I agree that the picture on the lap doesn't look good nor does it sound good in written form. What we don't know are the circumstances behind the picture. Why she was on his lap, if there are other pictures of girls on his lap, are there other accusations against him out there.
It almost sounds if someone got jealous that their child didn't receive as much attention as this girl did.
I'm just not seeing the red flags that others are. I think it goes much deeper than what has been presented here and I caution jumping to conclusions.
The OP admitted that she was gunshy because she had made a poor judgment regarding the church before. Could jumping to conclusions without all the pertinent info be the reason why?
People get hurt, sometimes irreversibly hurt when maliciousness gets in the way. Besides that, the enemy is having a field day and the certain people are running with it.
Think about it , the church is already on the rebound, putting itself back together after a split. They are replaced a youth minister and presumably still on the search for one. They now have a new pastor. The church is full of chaos currently. What better way does the enemy have than to come in and deceive? They are in a place where some are already disgruntled, frustrated, tired of the chaos. They are battle weary and not seeing things clearly. This leaves much room for misinterpretation.
And I'm sorry but just because a person takes a perceived problem to the leadership and they may not view it the same way, doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do to take your toys and go home.
It also sounds asa if that woman has more growing up to do.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 10:07:07 AM
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LkM07
Posts: 28
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I agree I need to chill about it, I think my emotions and fears of what SEEMS to be something quite scary has me jumping to some conclusions.. I do of course agree that the ball was dropped, even on my end. What could seem to be a relationship with him and her could just be the friendship they say it is, and there is just alot of bad timing making things look bad. He did allow inappropriate behavior though this is true. oh and on the picture.. yes actually I do remember now that they stated there was other youth around him too and the picture was cropped.. she was sitting on the end of his knee for the most apart but yeah.. still shouldnt haev happened prob.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 10:43:29 AM
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sisrev
Posts: 886
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From: The South, ya'll
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
What we don't know are the circumstances behind the picture. Why she was on his lap, if there are other pictures of girls on his lap, are there other accusations against him out there.
What possible circumstances could there be to warrant a teenage girl sitting on a grown man's lap, much less a youth leader? And then to post it on the internet?? At the very least, this man is guilty of gross misunderstanding of proper boundaries, not just because of being in ministry, but especially because of being in ministry.
_____________________________
My new blog, A Virtuous Woman
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 10:58:37 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
What possible circumstances could there be to warrant a teenage girl sitting on a grown man's lap, much less a youth leader? And then to post it on the internet?? At the very least, this man is guilty of gross misunderstanding of proper boundaries, not just because of being in ministry, but especially because of being in ministry.
From:LkMO7
quote:
oh and on the picture.. yes actually I do remember now that they stated there was other youth around him too and the picture was cropped.. she was sitting on the end of his knee for the most apart but yeah.. still shouldnt haev happened prob.
Point being, there was more to that aspect than was originally stated. There could be many reasons for it. I'm not saying it was ok to do, I'm not even saying it was wise, but we do not know his reasoning for it or behind it. What should be occurring is trusting that he was doing his job ministering and learning as he goes. Not jumping to conclusions and accusing him of of abusive behavior before it's even been proven.
Suggestion is not automatic guilt, neither is questionable.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 11:21:08 AM
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buckifn
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quote:
I'm just not seeing the red flags that others are.
If you can't see the unethical aspect of a man in a position of trusted leadership crossing boundaries with an under-aged female that doesn't excuse the behavior by those of us who do know the difference.
How many people on this forum would send their teenaged daughter to a youth group where they knew the youth minister in charge was violating such boundaries?
How many would want their daughter going away on an overnight missions trip with a guy who has such standards and then want the pictures posted on the internet?
Think about how many young girls look up to a youth minister as a role model. Is he modeling what you know is right for a Godly leader?
Whether the parent's of the girl in question have sense enough to take action against this guy or not, the church leadership needs to step up and act on what is in the best interest of everyone and make sure this guy gets the intervention he needs.
There has been a lot of damage done to those others who were around this picture and know it exists.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 11:49:34 AM
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solarflare
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I begin to see, LKM07, why you just do not want to believe that "Todd" has not lived up to YOUR expectations of him. You do not seem able to accept the advice of anyone, even though you say that is what you would like. Do you have more invested in this whole mess than you are letting on? If not, then I truly do not 'see' why you won't let it go.
You have been given good advice....I didn't need to post a thing. Either you won't let it go or you are not being 100% honest about some part of the mess.
Either way, you don't need my advice. I just get a bit perturbed when someone asks the type of question you have asked and then refuses to accept any answers but just goes on and on and on about the issue. I don't know you....I'm not trying to offend you. But at this point, either you need to 'do your own thing' , or take the advice of people who, apparently, have a much better sense of what is going on than you do.
I pray God opens your eyes and calms your heart and helps you to move in the right direction. This 'scandal' if as you have described, is a morass of sin and you really need to stop dwelling it in.
My best 100% honest advice.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 12:54:40 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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How old is this guy? Because I get the impression that he is in his 20's.
Formal training? Maybe he's not college educated.
It's kind of like putting the average Joe into a dentist position and expecting him to know things.
To high of expectations and one will be disappointed.
What you or I may perceive to be important may not be important to another. What's common sense to you may not be to another.
The clergy in this church were running around trying to pout it back together after a split. That's where their attention was.
And again, attention to this situation may not have been warranted.
She hasn't told us how the leadership responded, only that they didn't to this one woman.
We don't have the full story.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 1:36:46 PM
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Hayseed
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I don't know of anybody in a "regular" job that would think that this was okay with anybody. There's a plethora of "sexual harassment" laws out there and such that will tell anybody that this behavior ain't right.
College doesn't qualify anybody to be in "ministry." It's just an "add-on."
So a church that's getting back together after a split is given a pass on what's right and what's wrong?
God help us.
I'm wondering why the OP didn't do anything or say anything about it. Sounds like there was actually relationship enough with the person to do so.
I'm truly disappointed, perplexed and even a little angry with all the excuses some folks are trying to make here for such a blatant "oversight" on everybody that was involved and should have done something's part.
< Message edited by Hayseed -- 9/11/2008 1:52:59 PM >
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 2:44:09 PM
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deliveredarling
Posts: 1936
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I do believe that you are twisting my words, whether it is intentional or not.
I think I'm being quite clear on what it is that I am saying.
You don't have to agree, but do not twist my words to try to make your point.
Afterall, you don't appreciate this being done to you either.
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 3:50:45 PM
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solarflare
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I really think enough has been said on this thread. Redundancy is becoming a sport here................
ps I won't respond to messages regarding this post 
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/11/2008 4:23:07 PM
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Hayseed
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I'm not purposely trying to twist anybody's words here.
You're not coming across as clearly as you think, maybe?
But, really it does seem that we are beating a dead horse. It seems that the points and things that are really the problem, aren't even on the radar and not what people want to discuss.
I guess I'm just flabbergasted that something so obvious as described in the OP (taking the OPs word for it) didn't get handled by the people that should've handled it.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/15/2008 12:09:06 PM
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LkM07
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to answer a few questions. He is 32, he is educated, college degree but not ministry..
Also yes I did try to do something right when the lady attacked him. I told him, you do need to set boundries she is right, I was not accusing I just said, ya know, stop the long draw out hugs, letting her hang on you, dont let her sit on your lap.. just typical stuff. He acted like he agreed but was more concerned with hurting her feelings... It was so hard really not the best time to bring it up to him because at that point everyones feathers were more in a ruffle about how the lady in the church approached him. Me and my husbands mistake was not going to him before that even happened.
You have to understand how tough this has become.. and yes I do have a relationship with this guy.. its called he is my brother in Christ, and a very good friend. Yes Im becoming very frustrated and concerned for him but I care that is why this tears me up. I made mistakes and maybe dropped the ball in not going too him even sooner but I DID tell him boundries are very important.. unfortunatly he just chose to not take it to heart after a while and that is what is bad.
The current status.. he told us a week ago he is getting divorced and is stepping down, said he would tell the pastor within that week but I asked him mid week and he said he wasnt doing it till Sunday or Tomorrow.. I dont like how he is delaying because he said he wants his last event to be this convention we are going to this coming weekend with the youth.. he possible plans on telling the kids then!! which I think is a bad idea, and nothing but a damper on a trip they have been looking forward too. He did say he would heed the pastors advice so hopefully pastor forces a better plan.
Im so stuck now because we were asked to keep their divorce in confidence till they announce it to the pastor and what not.. So now I think its way out of my hands... I have no way of knowing for sure if him having a relationship with this girl is true and is one of the causes of their divorce but, I have TONS of clues. I am friends with his wife as well and she seems very devistated. She is being very quite about it though. HE announced that it was completely mutual, but I think she doesnt want it. On her facebook she has been putting things like Im waiting for a miracle, hoping and praying etc... Divorce is such a personal thing you dont know what to do and its not really your business, but Im broken for this family. Im starting to REALLY think Todd has problems.. I just have all around bad feelings.
Some are saying Im not taking advice, well I dont know really what Ive been told to do. Maybe I shouldnt haev asked for advice but more so just support and insight to this situation. I think I feel confident I have no place doing anything right now anyway. I have evidence of wierd things but they arent 100% but down the road if I see anything concerning with Todd towards Ann, I will then step in with what I nkow. At this point he is leaving soo so.. I guess that will play out for now.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/15/2008 4:39:09 PM
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buckifn
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I hate to say it but this guy is showing more and more classic signs of an abuser and a user based on what you are saying. I don't know of any other way to put it except this- if he does indeed consider you a "friend" and believes you consider him a friend then his actions pretty much equals prostituting your friendship for his benefit.
Why on earth would any decent moral man ask a friend to cover for his own mistakes in his marriage, his ministry, or any aspect of his life?
It sounds like he is hiding a lot in the name of going on this trip with other youth. I pray something happens to keep him from it. It also sounds like he has brainwashed you to the point you are blind to seeing the dangers here.
Most abusers would be stopped much earlier if someone spoke up.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/17/2008 11:06:32 AM
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Hayseed
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If it were me in the situation: I'd go to him and tell him that he needed to bring it out in the open and do the right thing NOW or I would go do it for him. I'd probably even drive him down there myself so he can't weasel out of it.
Let's just be practical here Lk... you and whoever else are being setup by him. How do you think you're gonna feel after it all blows up and people start discovering that you knew about it all along? I'm not saying that as a judgment... I'm just stating it as a fact of the inevitable.
He's still continuing to hurt people by his behavior and at this point someone needs to start protecting his wife and family from his actions as best they can.
_____________________________
My entire goal in life is to live exactly like the man who was falsely accused of being a drunkard, heretic and a friend of sinners by the religious people. So, don't be surprised if I'm not too concerned if you think ill of me.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/17/2008 11:35:55 AM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solarflare
quote:
ORIGINAL: LkM07
Yes Ive though of that i would like to support her. Another part of what made this so hard to pin point is when the lady at the Church was going after him about this, his wife was 100% supportive, she didnt have susppision of problems with Todd and Anne. ALso, Todd is close to Annes mother as she also helps with the youth. He goes over to their house alot., almost a strange amount. The wife is friends with Anns mom.. there has always been almost just as much tugging at us to think there is nothing to worry about, as stuff making us think there is..
Either way I am very regretful for not confronting. Im a bit gunshy now. I was confrontational about another issue once and I made some mistakes and now Im never sure if Im making a good judgement, or if I should be the one to make a move.
Woah....gets more complicated.....I can understand your hesitancy more now. Where is the Pastor? On a retreat?
I'm still reading the thread, but I had to comment on this. Where indeed is the pastor(s)? Perhaps it will be more explained as I read.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 9:13:28 AM
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LkM07
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bleh.. this is getting more ridiculous.. so he was suppost to tell our pastor by now to get advice on when and how to tell the youth etc etc. I found out from him yesterday that he still has not because the pastor was out of town this week... So he doesnt plan on telling the youth kids on the trip this weekend. I think that is best because I dont think he should tell them without telling the pastor first and getting his instruction, plus I think doing it on a fun trip like this would just stink.. I dont even think he should have told us, his volunteer youth staff without having told the pastor but.. bleh I dunno.
SO... I was starting to get excited to just enjoy this trip with the youth, finally a trip where I dont have to sit there frustrated about nonsense interaction between Todd and Ann.. WELL guess what. I find out yesterday that Anne is driving 9 hours from where she is going to college just to come on this trip with us.... 9 hours for a 1 full day 2 night trip because she would then have to return sunday... SO wierd.. I am now dreading this trip big time.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 9:22:57 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
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From: NE Ohio
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quote:
I find out yesterday that Anne is driving 9 hours from where she is going to college just to come on this trip with us.... 9 hours for a 1 full day 2 night trip because she would then have to return sunday... SO wierd.. I am now dreading this trip big time.
This is a disaster waiting to happen. You need to speak to your pastor today. The youth do not need to witness their hightening romance. I think you can lay all doubt aside...the Todd and Ann are planning a life together after his divorce.
It is grossly unfair to your Pastor for him not to be informed as he is the one who will have to deal with the fallout and pick up the pieces.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 9:33:16 AM
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LkM07
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I know.. bleh.. its just so nuts, what if Im wrong.. I mean yes there are all these red flags but what if Im still wrong and I just cause a big ruffle. I just hate being the one to do it, but I seem to be the only one concerned enough to be jacked out of shape about it.
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 11:07:08 AM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LkM07
I know.. bleh.. its just so nuts, what if Im wrong.. I mean yes there are all these red flags but what if Im still wrong and I just cause a big ruffle. I just hate being the one to do it, but I seem to be the only one concerned enough to be jacked out of shape about it.
Go to your Pastor with the attitude that you may be wrong. Give him all the info you have and then let him decide if there is good reason to be concerned. Let the Pastor make the decision. Keeping him in the dark robs him of the ability to do his job. Which, I suspect, is why Todd hasn't managed to inform him of his marital situation and his intent to step down from ministry for over 10 days. Telling the Pastor would put a crimp in his plans.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 11:32:14 AM
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GregandJenny
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From: Near Seattle Washington
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quote:
Go to your Pastor with the attitude that you may be wrong. Give him all the info you have and then let him decide if there is good reason to be concerned. Let the Pastor make the decision. Keeping him in the dark robs him of the ability to do his job. Which, I suspect, is why Todd hasn't managed to inform him of his marital situation and his intent to step down from ministry for over 10 days. Telling the Pastor would put a crimp in his plans.
I agree with Laura. i think if nothing is said that you are putting these youth spiritual life on the line. In my opinion at this point with the judgments he seems to be making he needs to be removed from ministry immediately.
I also want you to take into consideration that the youth (maybe not formally) know what's going on. They are not stupid, they probably don't know what to do .
G
_____________________________
It does not have to be well with my circumstance to be well with my soul!
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RE: Scandal? dunno what to think.. - 9/19/2008 12:25:28 PM
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1love1God1way
Posts: 2381
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Why were there no women youth leaders stepping up and speaking into this girl's life, either?
Granted, the responsibility will fall upon the adult man, but it still takes two to tango, and if someone would have stepped in and asked what was going on. . . a lot could have been discovered and avoided.
_____________________________
love.ben
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