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Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:33:38 PM
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RichLP
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Before I start, a caveat. I am speaking about friends and their children. If you are easily offended by the thought of a Crosswalker talking about people in his/her life online, even though names and some details are changed, then stop reading now. (Although I find the necessity of putting up this warning humorous, considering how people on this site have spoken about cheating spouses, rebellious children, difficult husbands, emotionally disturbed siblings, etc etc etc).
Not too long ago, I visited a friend's church. "Robert Deniro" wanted me there because after the worship and fellowship hour, there was going to be a small birthday party for his youngest child, with a cake and all. I love children and like his kids, so I went.
Another friend, "Jack Nicholson," who has children too, attended as well.
There were a series of photos taken, and the first one was for Robert Deniro, his wife, and children. But Jack Nicholson's very emotional, stubborn, and hot-tempered toddler son insisted on participating, because there was a cake with candles. Robert Deniro and his wife graciously told Jack Nicholson it was ok that "Jack Jr" wanted to be in the pic. But Jack Nicholson sensed it was best to get Jack Jr. out of the way, and he did, to Jack Jr's protests.
Finally, it was time for church members and guests to pose with Robert Deniro's family in front of the table w/ the cake and gifts. And then, all the children... toddlers, pre-schoolers, elementary school children. Jack Jr. and his siblings gladly went forward.
Robert Deniro's birthday child is a baby, so obviously he couldn't blow the candles. So after "Happy Birthday" was sung, all the children blew the candles. And Robert Deniro's oldest child, a boy, managed to blow out the final candle, even though Jack Jr. tried hard to get the last one. When Robert Junior was done with the last candle, Jack Jr. got mad. He began to slap Robert Jr's shoulder (even though Robert Jr is older, and if he wanted, he could have pummeled Jack Jr) and to cry hysterically.
Jack Nicholson came to the scene again and pulled his crying boy away.
Robert Deniro felt bad, so he had the candles lit again and called all the kids back for a 2nd round of "Happy Birthday" so Jack Jr could blow the candles out. But now Jack Jr refused.
While the cake was cut, Jack Nicholson and his wife were at a table where I was sitting, finishing off our fellowship hour coffee. They were trying to console him, but Jack Jr was still crying hysterically - the type of crying that is so overwhelming that makes one's body almost shake. Jack Jr, in fact, was so overtaken that he vomited the bits of muffins and bagels that had been served during the fellowship hour.
I watched Jack Nicholson and his wife. They were very embarrassed by Jack Jr. Jack told me it was not the first time Jack Jr had done something like this.
All this happened in full view of others, in the fellowship hall of the church, with most church members and guests still present.
I have read other posts and threads here about temperamental toddlers. What could explain Jack Jr's behavior? Is it just that he's a little boy and thusly, children don't know better? Is his temper out of control? What's going on here?
If Jack Jr were my son, I would have harshly punished him at home, and probably taken him to a private room in that church for a time out. I am of the school that believes that if young children are not given a firm, tough disciplinarian hand, they will keep pushing and they will not distinguish appropriate from inappropriate behavior.
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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:49:44 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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Probably the fact that it was Sunday afternoon and the poor kid needed a solid lunch and a nap. From the behavior I'm guessing it was a toddler, under the age of 4?
quote:
If Jack Jr were my son, I would have harshly punished him at home, and probably taken him to a private room in that church for a time out.
You don't "harshly punish" a toddler for acting out, especially if they are in need of something and aren't having that need met(lunch or a nap).
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:51:04 PM
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Leslie_JnJs_mom
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quote:
If Jack Jr were my son, I would have harshly punished him at home, and probably taken him to a private room in that church for a time out. I am of the school that believes that if young children are not given a firm, tough disciplinarian hand, they will keep pushing and they will not distinguish appropriate from inappropriate behavior.
Its a good thing he is not your child then. Have they asked for your help? If not then I really would not worry about it. I know there are people who probally think my kid needs a good spanking at times but it is my child and my responsibility to parent how I feel God is leading me. It is probally the same with your friends.
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<------- Jessica and I had so much fun with grandma!
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:54:50 PM
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stellaluna
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Funny you should post this, because recently I observed temperamental behavior in a kid and I'm going to attach it to yours.
I was in Wal-Mart, walking behind a woman who was pushing a basket with what appeared to be a 4-5 year old inside. As they passed the toys, the little boy asked for something (couldn't hear what) and the mom calmly replied, "No, not today." The boy began screaming at the top of his lungs and kicking the basket. He continued screaming for the rest of the half hour or so I was in the store. I could hear him everywhere I went and they crossed my path a couple more times. Of course, everyone was stopping and staring and commenting and the mom was calmly going about her shopping.
Now, if I hadn't heard the original exchange, I don't know what I would have thought. But I did think to myself if that was my kid I would have given him a few minutes to control himself and if he couldn't I would take him out of the store. I know she was probably trying to ignore this bad behavior, but she was really letting him disrupt dozens and dozens of people. That's kind of what I thought of when I read Rich's post.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:55:20 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
quote:
If Jack Jr were my son, I would have harshly punished him at home, and probably taken him to a private room in that church for a time out. I am of the school that believes that if young children are not given a firm, tough disciplinarian hand, they will keep pushing and they will not distinguish appropriate from inappropriate behavior.
Its a good thing he is not your child then. Have they asked for your help? If not then I really would not worry about it. I know there are people who probally think my kid needs a good spanking at times but it is my child and my responsibility to parent how I feel God is leading me. It is probally the same with your friends.
At no point did I imply or state my friends asked for my help. I was speaking about what I saw, and according to Jack Nicholson, Jack Jr has a history of doing this. On the few times I have had dinner at his house, he's been similar to this, although not to this extent.
My question, basically, was whether temperamental toddlers are really uncontrollable, or whether such behavior CAN be tamed.
As for how God leads you with your children, may God bless both you and them - but I see no reason for you to mention yourself or your children since both you and they are utterly irrelevant to the discussion I created here.
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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:57:20 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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How old is the child?
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:57:23 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Funny you should post this, because recently I observed temperamental behavior in a kid and I'm going to attach it to yours.
I was in Wal-Mart, walking behind a woman who was pushing a basket with what appeared to be a 4-5 year old inside. As they passed the toys, the little boy asked for something (couldn't hear what) and the mom calmly replied, "No, not today." The boy began screaming at the top of his lungs and kicking the basket. He continued screaming for the rest of the half hour or so I was in the store. I could hear him everywhere I went and they crossed my path a couple more times. Of course, everyone was stopping and staring and commenting and the mom was calmly going about her shopping.
Now, if I hadn't heard the original exchange, I don't know what I would have thought. But I did think to myself if that was my kid I would have given him a few minutes to control himself and if he couldn't I would take him out of the store. I know she was probably trying to ignore this bad behavior, but she was really letting him disrupt dozens and dozens of people. That's kind of what I thought of when I read Rich's post.
THANK YOU. Someone who gets it.
As per the first post, Jack Nicholson told me Jack Jr did this before. Which is why I'm wondering if children that young, despite their tantrums, CAN be controlled, or whether even the finest parenting cannot stop a child from repeated tantrums of this kind.
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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 3:58:41 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
How old is the child?
Almost 4.
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"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:01:50 PM
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Mrs.Wifey
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
THANK YOU. Someone who gets it.
no, we "get it"....we just don't agree with everything the scenario you said above implies
Yeah, trust me. *we* get it, because *we* have those awful, rowdy toddlers who get overtired, are out at the wrong time of day, and need to go HOME.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:02:57 PM
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kohls356
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Well I don't know Jack Jr but I have been around some Jack Jrs that sound like the child you described. Since this isn't abnormal for him honestly it sounds like to me that he is catered too and when he doesn't get his way he throws a big tantrum. I have a nephew like that and there just isn't really a think you can do about it.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:09:29 PM
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stellaluna
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Even though I thought the screaming Wal-Mart kid should have been taken out of the store, I did feel sorry for his mom. Especially since I knew without a doubt that she did nothing to provoke him. (Except say no.) I kind of wonder if she was wearing earplugs...or maybe she is hard of hearing.
I have spent copious amounts of time with all sorts of children in the past 20 years and I have known several who were prone to such tantrums. The vast majority, though, were not.
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Who should be allowed to attend church?
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:10:06 PM
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RichLP
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The reason I do not agree with the "hungry, needs to go home/nap" line (and with all due respect to all who have kids) is that Jack Jr wasn't tired.
After he eventually calmed down and the birthday party ended, Jack Jr spent at least 1 full hour playing with the other children, including Robert Deniro's son, whom he hit a few times. Jack Jr. ran around, screamed, and laughed, and had lots of fun with the other children.
And, there was plenty of food during the fellowship hour as well as the cake, with juice, soda, water, and other refreshments. I had a huge helping myself and needed no more food till dinnertime.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:12:36 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Even though I thought the screaming Wal-Mart kid should have been taken out of the store, I did feel sorry for his mom. Especially since I knew without a doubt that she did nothing to provoke him. (Except say no.) I kind of wonder if she was wearing earplugs...or maybe she is hard of hearing.
I have spent copious amounts of time with all sorts of children in the past 20 years and I have known several who were prone to such tantrums. The vast majority, though, were not.
Before I first met Jack Nicholson's children, Jack Nicholson himself 'warned' me that Jack Jr was a handful. Jack Nicholson even brought up Robert Deniro's children and said "Jack Jr isn't quiet and well-behaved like Robert's kids."
The odd thing is, Jack is not lenient; he does discipline his kids. Jack's other kids aren't like this.
_____________________________
"We have removed an ally of Al Qaeda" - G.W. Bush lies to America and to the world, 5/1/2003
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:13:28 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
If Jack Jr were my son, I would have harshly punished
Harsh punishment isn't even biblical....loving discipline is.....
that's one thing you learn as an education major...to punish the child is to take revenge because you're irritated or whatever...to discipline is to teach the child.........
Most toddlers I know, no matter how well behaved and well disciplined they normally are, have a hard time on Sundays, because it is such a different routine for them the rest of the week.........then add the excitement of a party...and a late lunch.....that the child would be disgruntled isn't a huge surprise........
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"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:14:05 PM
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kohls356
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Oh I had one that had a personality that led to many tantrums. But then I also did realize, being my first, that I was catering to her and when that did lead to many of the trantrums. Like I said I don't know Jack Jr but the ones I do know that behaved like Jack Jr well to put it bluntly were just horrible to be around because when they didn't get their way like they were used to, they threw the biggest tantrums.
I really try hard not to pass judgement on a child or parent if I don't know the situation. You just never know what is going on. But I have been in the stores and seen kids having melt downs. Sometimes it is hard not to notice because of the screaming and such. I think there are times you can tell if it is a melt down moment of the way the child behaves. Most kids who are having a melt down are cranky and whiny but not really mean and hitting etc. But again the child could have issues we don't know about so I really do try not to pass judgement.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:18:17 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
The odd thing is, Jack is not lenient; he does discipline his kids. Jack's other kids aren't like this.
EVERY child is different..even identical twins are each their own unique person.
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"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:24:34 PM
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Rayoh
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It's quite possibly he was tired or hungry etc... I don't think things like that should be used as an excuse to not try and get things under control. It might explain what is going on but the situation still needs to be taken care of and the child taught that isn't acceptable. Especially if this is a rather common thing. It sounds more like it's just his personality.
Regardless when he continued to carry on like that one of them should removed him from the scene until he could get himself under control or simply leave all together.
Especially at the age of 4. That is old enough to go to preschool and preschool teachers are going to expect them to follow simple directions and instructions and not have melt downs over every little thing. What if it happened to be one kids turn to pass out straws or napkins for snack. (I'm thinking of when my kids were in preschool and things they did to take turns) and " Jack Jr." decided no he wanted to do that? He has to learn he doesn't always get his way. Like blowing out the last birthday candle.
Kids are going to have tantrums. Some more than others and it seems they can pull one on you at the most embarrassing of moments in public places. However they can be taught what is acceptable by being consistant with them ,and I could see a 2 year old perhaps acting like that, but I would have issues if my 4 year old pulled something like that on a regular basis. I'm sure it's not the popular opinion but I would've disciplined one of mine at the age 4 for acting like that as well (not knowing anymore about what was going on with the kid other than just reading what was written here and the scenario) but I'm from the old school of doing things too. I'm just thankful I'm past all that stage now!!
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:25:47 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
Yup, She might only be a year old but she can pitch a fit with the best of them. Yesterday's involved pulling my hair and smacking my arm
Hard to look at that little angel face in the avatar and picture her doing that...but I know..they are ALL capable of it...they are all little sinners, precious as they are...
_____________________________
"We basically use what I have seen referred to as "get off your butt" parenting. It employs more interaction, more redirection, more prevention, and usually less spanking."
-Mrs. Wifey
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Yep I have one of those too. She had a fit in wal mart once too because she could not have something she wanted.
His tantrums quit soon after that.
But, that was my own fault. Due to my schedule there was no other good time to go get groceries other then nap time.
