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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:29:17 PM
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Ellie-Mae
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I would have picked him up, left early, taken him home, put him to nap. My kids have often needed naps at that age and younger, eespecially after church. I am only now beginning to be able to stick around and fellowship more, but still have to watch out for my youngest.
Also, you may not know the whole story with that child. I have a child that often looks disobedient when it is just that he developed out of order making him really hard to communicate with or handle (although most people didn't realize that there was a problem at all).
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:29:22 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
Even though I thought the screaming Wal-Mart kid should have been taken out of the store, I did feel sorry for his mom. Especially since I knew without a doubt that she did nothing to provoke him. (Except say no.) I kind of wonder if she was wearing earplugs...or maybe she is hard of hearing.
I have two sons. For one son, leaving the store would have been effective in dealing with his behavior. For the other, leaving the store would have caused him to think he was the winner in the situation, and encouraged him to behave that way on future trips.
That would have been the 2 year old that I held down forcibly with one hand (because he wanted to stand in the cart) while doing my shopping with the other hand for 45 minutes while he screamed and tried to stand. Fortunately, because of my persistence, this situation never repeated itself.
Rich, a tired child can still run and play. In fact, a tired child will frequently behave in a hyperactive manner in order to keep himself awake.
And, it sounds like the parents DID try to keep junior from causing problems but other parents kept arguing with them that they should let their child do things they knew were not good for that particular child. Therefor, I think this fit was ROBERT junior's parents fault, in large part, for not respecting what JACK junior's parents told him to do/not do. And, I would have been ticked off if I had been Jack's mom.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:50:57 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
And, it sounds like the parents DID try to keep junior from causing problems but other parents kept arguing with them that they should let their child do things they knew were not good for that particular child. Therefor, I think this fit was ROBERT junior's parents fault, in large part, for not respecting what JACK junior's parents told him to do/not do. And, I would have been ticked off if I had been Jack's mom.
To clarify...
Jack first told Jack Jr to get away from the table w/ the cake while Robert's family posed for pics from several yards away. Jack was already embarrassed Jack Jr was "invading," but out of courtesy, Robert said it was OK because he felt bad about telling a kid that young to "get out. this is not the time for YOU to take pics." And it would've probably looked awkward for one father to physically remove another man's son from that spot - all the more since Robert also knows Jack Jr can get temperamental, and it would've looked odd for Robert, not Jack, to physically remove Jack Jr.
Jack removed Jack Jr in a matter of moments, and not to my surprise, Jack Jr flailed his legs and began to cry as Jack pulled him away. Do you think it would've been better for Robert to have done the removing?
Besides, Robert probably knew Jack would have acted.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:54:30 PM
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Auben
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Children are just people learning about what they can do or not do.
Not every person in the world is quiet and even-tempered. A few are strong-willed and noisy. Some feel great gusts of emotion. Some are very expressive. Some are very persistent. Some take longer to 'get' social behavior.
Leave Jack Jr. to his parents. As embarrassed as they were, they still know him well enough to know what works with him and what doesn't. And if they don't yet, every failure will teach them more about their child.
Every child is not the same. Spankings work with some. Grounding others. A stern talking to works with a third. One thing a veteran parent knows is that you have to tailor the training to the child and their personality.
And concerning the woman at Walmart, I'm sure she's not hard of hearing. She probably has a limited time in the store and finished her shopping while ignoring the behavior. I've been in that spot more than once. Sometimes you make your way through as quickly and calmly as possible. In fact, that happened to me last Friday. I had interlibrary loan books which were going to be sent back so I took my cranky 3 year old with me to pick them up. He cried the last 15 minutes. I couldn't cheer him up. I had to get the books. I just did the best I could.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 4:55:24 PM
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Tinkerbell_
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Forgive if this comes across harshly, but I'm trying to figure out your motivation with your post. You come here seeking opinions and when they don't agree with yours, you continue to feed more of the story, perhaps in hope to change our minds?
Children are children. Especially children under the age of 4 aren't going to be the perfect, submissive little angels that we expect them to be. Sometimes they're good; other times they're not.
Perhaps Jack gets overwhelmed with his child. Perhaps he's more disciplining in the private of his home. There are many variables that we don't see here that you obviously do.
I will say I am in no position to judge a person whom I've never met nor ever spoke to. You have your opinions as to how the situation should have been handled and I'm sure when you become a parent all of those opinions will fly right out the window because until you are dealing with that particular situation, you really don't know what you'll do.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 5:01:56 PM
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RichLP
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Forgive if this comes across harshly, but I'm trying to figure out your motivation with your post. You come here seeking opinions and when they don't agree with yours, you continue to feed more of the story, perhaps in hope to change our minds?
Children are children. Especially children under the age of 4 aren't going to be the perfect, submissive little angels that we expect them to be. Sometimes they're good; other times they're not.
Perhaps Jack gets overwhelmed with his child. Perhaps he's more disciplining in the private of his home. There are many variables that we don't see here that you obviously do.
I will say I am in no position to judge a person whom I've never met nor ever spoke to. You have your opinions as to how the situation should have been handled and I'm sure when you become a parent all of those opinions will fly right out the window because until you are dealing with that particular situation, you really don't know what you'll do.
No, I don't expect anybody to change their minds.
I just wanted to know if temperamental acts like Jack Jr - hitting an older boy who just happened to blow the last candle, crying hysterically, etc - can be deemed as "normal;" whether it is due to personality, discipline, or a combination of both.
Any more "harsh" posts? Cuz this wasn't harsh whatsoever.   
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 5:26:06 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
And, it sounds like the parents DID try to keep junior from causing problems but other parents kept arguing with them that they should let their child do things they knew were not good for that particular child. Therefor, I think this fit was ROBERT junior's parents fault, in large part, for not respecting what JACK junior's parents told him to do/not do. And, I would have been ticked off if I had been Jack's mom.
To clarify...
Jack first told Jack Jr to get away from the table w/ the cake while Robert's family posed for pics from several yards away. Jack was already embarrassed Jack Jr was "invading," but out of courtesy, Robert said it was OK because he felt bad about telling a kid that young to "get out. this is not the time for YOU to take pics." And it would've probably looked awkward for one father to physically remove another man's son from that spot - all the more since Robert also knows Jack Jr can get temperamental, and it would've looked odd for Robert, not Jack, to physically remove Jack Jr.
Jack removed Jack Jr in a matter of moments, and not to my surprise, Jack Jr flailed his legs and began to cry as Jack pulled him away. Do you think it would've been better for Robert to have done the removing?
Besides, Robert probably knew Jack would have acted.
No, I think Robert should have kept his mouth shut instead of contradicting Jack's father right in front of Jack. And since when is fear of a child's temper the correct driving force behind an ADULT's actions?
quote:
Leave Jack Jr. to his parents. As embarrassed as they were, they still know him well enough to know what works with him and what doesn't. And if they don't yet, every failure will teach them more about their child.
Amen.
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Ziva: It is possible. I do not remember all their names.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 7:51:27 PM
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JoyfulWife
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From: The South
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quote:
The odd thing is, Jack is not lenient; he does discipline his kids. Jack's other kids aren't like this.
If you know this for a fact, then chalk it up to personality. Some kids are just born with one of those personalities that are "challenging" (a positive way of saying "difficult"  )
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 8:22:09 PM
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Sideways
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
Rich, a tired child can still run and play. In fact, a tired child will frequently behave in a hyperactive manner in order to keep himself awake.
I'll agree with that.
My son was fussing all day; he wasn't exactly throwing fits, but he was not a happy camper. Took him to the doctor this afternoon - turns out his throat is inflamed! I had no idea. The funny part was that at the doctor's office he was happy and playful, 'cause there was lots of new and interesting things to look at.
But he was still unwell, and I've also seen him beyond exhaustion or overstimulated and running around like a madman.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 8:26:34 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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Sundays were always really hard on my two, as well. Their schedules would be all mixed up, and it would be naptime when we were at church, and lunch was always late...you know, kids don't know how to express themselves well at those ages and they also don't always know what is wrong with themselves, they just know they feel uhappy or bothered.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 8:37:19 PM
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sisrev
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When I first started reading the OP, I pictured a much younger child. I don't consider 4 a toddler, by the way!
On the one hand, I think it's wrong to put an excitable child in a stimulating atmosphere and expect them it sit quietly and behave like a little adult. On the other hand, I think it wrong to just let them work themselves up into a tizzy and just expect it to go away on it's own. I had a very energetic, stong willed child, and we learned early on that he could not handle certain situations gracefully. Noise and crowds and excitement are overstimulation to some kids. So we learned not to put him in those situations until he learned to handle it better. I left many family gatherings early, we seldom went to church or restaurants--for a while, we didn't even take him to the store with us, one of us stayed at home while the other did the shopping. As long as he could run and play and shout and sing and be energetic, he was fine. So we took him places he could do that--the park, or the ball thingy at Micky D's, or even just outside, but we learned to control the atmosphere and choose our battles.
In a situation like this, I would have taken him out into a quiet room and talked to him or played with him, or just let him throw himself on the ground without wellmeaning prying eyes. Once he was calm, only then would we have gone back to the crowd. And if need be, take him home.
So, yes, I think this is normal for some kids, but I also think that unless they have some other issues, the parents can learn to redirect their energy until they can learn to control themselves.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 9:10:25 PM
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buckifn
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I'd say thats pretty typical behavior for a child that age who may be tired, hungry, over stimulated by all the people, excitement, etc. and prob. the best route would have been to scoop him up and taken him home for a nap.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/9/2008 11:31:00 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
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I think I take the middle ground a bit on this one.
I do not think it's reasonable to expect a 3 (almost 4) yr old to be perfectly well behaved when they are in less than ideal situations (nap time, hungry, overstimulation, etc). Some leniency is definitely in order.
That being said, at what point does is there always an excuse for misbehaviour? I definitely see this in some people. Whenever their child acts up there's a reason for it. Excuse after excuse. Unless there's a medical reason otherwise, if the kid's throwing a tantrum practically every time you see them, it's likely to be discipline related (or lack thereof).
And at what point do we expect obedience in less than ideal situations? I think it's really important, especially as they're getting older (a 4 yr old is WAY different than a 2 yr old obviously) to acknowledge their tiredness (or whatever) and yet still set expectations for them. Children have a way of meeting your expectations - whether they're high or low.
Is Jack Jr the "baby" of the family? If all their other kids are well behaved and Jack Jr is the baby - it could be lack of discipline as that tends to happen with lastborns.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 1:27:20 AM
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Mrs.X
Posts: 2933
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: Newberg, OR
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Leslie_JnJs_mom
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mrs.Wifey
quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
THANK YOU. Someone who gets it.
no, we "get it"....we just don't agree with everything the scenario you said above implies
Yeah, trust me. *we* get it, because *we* have those awful, rowdy toddlers who get overtired, are out at the wrong time of day, and need to go HOME.
 Yep I have one of those too. She had a fit in wal mart once too because she could not have something she wanted.
Mine does that EVERYTIME we're at ANY store that carries Hot Wheels. I avoid those aisles like the plague. Actually, he throws a fit and falls on the floor ANYTIME I tell him no. He is almost three. There is still a language barrier though.
I think that behavior is normal, Rich, but I do think that Robert and Mrs. Deniro should have taken Robert Jr. in another room and tried to calm him down. He can at least understand them and there is no language barrier. Getting all riled up like that with the playing and having fun can make kids do that sometimes too. Did you happen to notice if Robert Jr. and red cheeks had red ears before the tantrum?
< Message edited by Mrs.X -- 9/10/2008 1:34:06 AM >
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A soft answer turneth away wrath: but grievous words stir up anger. -Proverbs 15:1
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 7:55:50 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RichLP
quote:
ORIGINAL: Tinkerbell_
Forgive if this comes across harshly, but I'm trying to figure out your motivation with your post. You come here seeking opinions and when they don't agree with yours, you continue to feed more of the story, perhaps in hope to change our minds?
Children are children. Especially children under the age of 4 aren't going to be the perfect, submissive little angels that we expect them to be. Sometimes they're good; other times they're not.
Perhaps Jack gets overwhelmed with his child. Perhaps he's more disciplining in the private of his home. There are many variables that we don't see here that you obviously do.
I will say I am in no position to judge a person whom I've never met nor ever spoke to. You have your opinions as to how the situation should have been handled and I'm sure when you become a parent all of those opinions will fly right out the window because until you are dealing with that particular situation, you really don't know what you'll do.
No, I don't expect anybody to change their minds.
I just wanted to know if temperamental acts like Jack Jr - hitting an older boy who just happened to blow the last candle, crying hysterically, etc - can be deemed as "normal;" whether it is due to personality, discipline, or a combination of both.
Any more "harsh" posts? Cuz this wasn't harsh whatsoever.
Yeah...I get that a lot. 
And yes...it's very normal. Even good kids can have moments of over stimulation and not know how to do with it. Just recently Thing 2 spent most of a day crying and throwing fits and just being completely unbearable and he's 8. He was emotionally over stimulated because his dad was here for the second time and it stressed him out. I cut him a little slack but still insisted he maintain the propriety I had taught him.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 9:00:14 AM
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HenriettasCat
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I think Jack Jr would get on well with my 3 year old (or maybe not ).
Yep, he is my strong willed passionate child. Everything he does, he does with gusto. He loves, laughs, hugs and temper tantrums to extremes - and I love him for it.
As a parent you just have to know your child. There are days where I am more lenient with my child (I'm not talking inconsistent here - I mean the difference between a hug and a firm 'no' with kisses, to a stern sitting down and talking to with consequences to boot if there is not a change of attitude).
I try not to be bothered about 'what other people think' but rather have confidence in what I am doing.
In the case of the party - the photo shoot part - that would have resulted in me physically removing crying child, kissing and saying "I know you want your photo taken but it's RJ's turn and its hard but we cant' always get what we want" I'd have tried to firmly lead him through his dissapointment and said "if you can't stop crying I will have to take you outside for a while until you have calmed down but then you won't see the candles be blown out/see the cake cut (whatever)"
Now as for the hitting, that is a "no" in our house. I would have given my child a firm reprimand, an apology expected (or a time out until ready to do so) and my child would have been made very clear that any more of such behaviour would have resulted in being taken home and a missed party.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 9:40:26 AM
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Rayoh
Posts: 40
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TammyIsBlessed
I think I take the middle ground a bit on this one.
I do not think it's reasonable to expect a 3 (almost 4) yr old to be perfectly well behaved when they are in less than ideal situations (nap time, hungry, overstimulation, etc). Some leniency is definitely in order.
That being said, at what point does is there always an excuse for misbehaviour? I definitely see this in some people. Whenever their child acts up there's a reason for it. Excuse after excuse. Unless there's a medical reason otherwise, if the kid's throwing a tantrum practically every time you see them, it's likely to be discipline related (or lack thereof).
And at what point do we expect obedience in less than ideal situations? I think it's really important, especially as they're getting older (a 4 yr old is WAY different than a 2 yr old obviously) to acknowledge their tiredness (or whatever) and yet still set expectations for them. Children have a way of meeting your expectations - whether they're high or low.
Is Jack Jr the "baby" of the family? If all their other kids are well behaved and Jack Jr is the baby - it could be lack of discipline as that tends to happen with lastborns.
I like your post. This is pretty much what I was trying to get across but it seems better how you wrote it.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 10:18:42 AM
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stellaluna
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I agree with most of the posts here, but for those of you who have children who are over-emotional at times...
if your child is throwing a tantrum that lasts more than a few minutes, don't you think it's best to remove them from the situation, at least long enough to attempt to calm down? I'm thinking of my Wal-Mart lady. I think it's kind of rude to disrupt everyone else in a store for half an hour. She could have walked her kid outside, let him calm down and then attempted to shop again instead of just ignoring him and expecting everyone else to as well.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 10:24:14 AM
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Tinkerbell_
Posts: 7616
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: NeverNeverLand
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I agree with most of the posts here, but for those of you who have children who are over-emotional at times...
if your child is throwing a tantrum that lasts more than a few minutes, don't you think it's best to remove them from the situation, at least long enough to attempt to calm down? I'm thinking of my Wal-Mart lady. I think it's kind of rude to disrupt everyone else in a store for half an hour. She could have walked her kid outside, let him calm down and then attempted to shop again instead of just ignoring him and expecting everyone else to as well.
I can't speak for everyone but to be honest it really depends on the situation. If I'm just out shopping and not really getting anything, then yes...I'd probably leave the store without hesitation.
If I were buying something we needed, like milk, cereal, eggs, something like that and I knew I wouldn't be able to get back to the store in the next few days or I wouldn't have the money then no...I would finish my shopping and just grit my teeth praying that people would understand. I mean, I'm a single mum so it's not so simple for me to not bring the kids, you know? I also don't have the patience to step outside and then return to finish my shopping. Sorry. I HATE to shop and just want to run in and run out. I'm not going to go in, then go back out, then go back in to finish and then leave. Too much to do when I can just run in and run out.
Now that the boys are older I can leave them at home for a few minutes to run and grab something but when they were smaller they went where I went.
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