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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 10:28:05 AM
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stellaluna
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Well, it sounds like you're not going to spend 30-60 minutes in a Wal-Mart, though. (Or a mall or wherever.) I'm pretty reasonable when it comes to temper tantrums, but if they are going on and on and on...
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 10:33:43 AM
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Auben
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You have to know your child.
I've had a few I could take to the bathroom for a few moments or sit calmly in an empty shoe department or something and they would calm down and be fine. If that's the case I stay in one spot and wait I don't move around.
Then I have others that seem to feed off their emotion. Waiting would just prolong what they have already gotten themselves into. After a while it's not even the initial No anymore, it's the cyclical pattern of feeling wronged. In that scenario the best thing to do is speed up what you're doing or just leaving.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 11:12:02 AM
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doinkdom
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Medicate the kid.
What?!?
Isn't that what our culture does? Whether the child actually needs it or not?
j/k
But, we do have an entire generation of children on some kind of medication to "calm" them down.
As for The Nicholson's being right or wrong, hopefully they will work through appropriate disciplinary actions for their Jr.
Out of control children need to be dealt with in the moment, IMO and not ignored. Just my opinion and exerpience as well.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 12:50:44 PM
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Auben
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There is no such thing as a magic thing that works for every child.
I have at least one who calms faster and easier if you don't input your own emotion or verbalize with him. The more you verbalize and explain to him what he did wrong the more upset he gets. The more he feels victimized (even if he was victimizing someone else) and the longer he will cry. After he's visited his emotion and has had time to calm and reflect THEN you can talk to him.
In that scenario dealing with him calmly, being kind and firm, and then ignoring his reaction until he can get ahold of himself is the only way to go.
I've never known a tantrum to stop faster because you dealt with it and dealt with it and dealt with it until it was done. You deal with it immediately then you allow children to have their emotions. Some children like the attention (even if its negative). If that's the case, ignoring is the only way to stop the tantrum (remove the motivation). Many children will emote whether they can win or not. They're not in control of their emotions the way you or I are. It takes understanding and practice to do that.
Much of the emotional control we want in our children takes years of modeling and training. Like any skill some will get it earlier then others. Some will need more guidance and time.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/10/2008 1:14:14 PM
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doinkdom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2
quote:
Out of control children need to be dealt with in the moment, IMO and not ignored. Just my opinion and exerpience as well.
depends on the child, the parents, the situation, and the personalities of all those involved....sometimes it is best to wait.
like I said...my opinion and experience is not to wait
some results may vary
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 2:24:28 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
Funny you should post this, because recently I observed temperamental behavior in a kid and I'm going to attach it to yours.
I was in Wal-Mart, walking behind a woman who was pushing a basket with what appeared to be a 4-5 year old inside. As they passed the toys, the little boy asked for something (couldn't hear what) and the mom calmly replied, "No, not today." The boy began screaming at the top of his lungs and kicking the basket. He continued screaming for the rest of the half hour or so I was in the store. I could hear him everywhere I went and they crossed my path a couple more times. Of course, everyone was stopping and staring and commenting and the mom was calmly going about her shopping.
Now, if I hadn't heard the original exchange, I don't know what I would have thought. But I did think to myself if that was my kid I would have given him a few minutes to control himself and if he couldn't I would take him out of the store. I know she was probably trying to ignore this bad behavior, but she was really letting him disrupt dozens and dozens of people. That's kind of what I thought of when I read Rich's post.
I try not to be judgmental in these situations as you do not know the whole situation. For example, you could have been describing some of our shopping experiences. We have a child who has ASD. Looking at his physical appearance, you would not know he has this condition. One of his primary problems is having meltdowns. These “tantrums” are something like 10 times that of a child without autism. One situation that can set this off is if he sees something he wants that he is told he can not have. If he reaches the point of having a complete "meltdown", telling him to stop when he gets to this stage does no good. Often times, it can actually worsen the meltdown. Depending on the situation, sometimes when my wife and I are together at the store, one of us will take him out to our vehicle and wait while the other finishes shopping (this can depend on the severity of the meltdown and on how close we are to being finished shopping). Sometimes it may be better for us both to be with him while finishing shopping. If my wife is at the store with him by herself, then she will base it on how close she is to being finished, how important the items are that she is there to get, etc. Yes, we do get stares, but we have learned to ignore them. I was taught growing up that it is impolite to stare and as far as I am concerned, the people staring are the ones with a problem (I am not talking about those that look to see what is happening when hearing something like this and then go about their business, as this is a normal reaction).
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 2:29:47 PM
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OneOfHisJewels
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quote:
s ASD
What's ASD?
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 2:43:37 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I suspect he's referring to something along the autism spectrum.
Which in my opinion still doesn't justify having a 30-minute+ tantrum in a Wal-Mart. But there's another thread about that. 
ASD = Autism Spectrum Disorder
As for 30-minute+... Again, the people observing this most likely do not know the whole situation. If the child has a disabililty such as ASD, then the parent may not have an alternative. There may be items the parent has to get and maybe it may take him/her 30+ minutes. If the child is not causing harm to others (not trying to hit others, for example) then the parent has as much right to be in the store as the parent of a child with any other type of disability. As far as "justification"... I can only assume here that you do not know much about ASD for you to make this comment. Most if not all children with ASD prone to meltdowns can not help this which is where understanding from others comes into play. Meltdowns stemming from ASD are not the same as temper-tantrums that "typical" children have.
What is the other thread?
< Message edited by CCCdnt -- 9/22/2008 3:02:28 PM >
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 5:13:15 PM
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pbaribeault
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Since the main question revolves around whether this behaviour is normal, or if it should be dealt with... I'm going to say, "Both."
Yes, it is normal... Kids' temperaments vary widely and every so often there is a really challenging one. In this case, you say that the boy is not the only child and that the parents have managed their other offspring reasonable well. This leads me to be thinking that they've got themselves a child with a really challenging temperament that has not responded completely to the techniques that have worked for them so far.
Yes, it needs to be dealt with... In this situation, I'm really glad that this kid has got these parents... parents with experience and good instincts. I think that these parents know their child well, know what sets him off, and are generally able to deal with him. They seem willing to step in, willing to be firm and willing to work at it as long as it takes. It may take a lot of persistence, patience and wisdom on their part to accomplish behaviour modification. Being harsh generally does not just make bad behaviour go away faster... with highly reactive kids it tends to make things worse. So unless good parents are careful with their gut reaction to become harsh, they will just be able to barely control their kid until their mid-teens when everything breaks loose. On the other hand, there are good ways to deal with this stuff, and good parents can do a good job in the long run.
You seem to imply that since the incident occurred and since it has occurred before, that Jack's parents are not making any progress in learning how to manage their son. That's a shot in the dark... and it's not fair. If Jack was sharing his frustration with you, it does not mean that he is incapable of parenting, has no plan or is seeing no results. It's just that working this hard to accomplish something that comes easy with other kids is frustrating. (In most other parts of life, being successful 95% of the time is considered pretty good! With parenting, that 5% (or less!) where things got out of hand is not an indication that parenting goals and behaviour modification is not working reasonably well over all.)
In this situation, I think Robert seriously contributed the problem.
Jack Jr. wanted something inappropriate (to be in the photos) and his Dad stepped in with the firm-but-fair 'it ain't gonna happen' approach that is currently the best technique in their parenting tool box. Perhaps this would have worked, if he hadn't been given 'it's OK' messages by Robert. This confused him and lead him to believe that if he kept pushing he might accomplish something. Even though Jack stuck to his plan, Robert's mixed messages made the situation crazy, making Jack Jr's reaction much louder and longer than would probably have been the result of the original technique. Jack knows how to manage his kid, and he should have been left to it.
Things spiraled out of control from there, especially counting the supposed 'food' (bagels, muffins and cake I believe were mentioned) and drinks (soda and juice) the timing (after Church with no down time) Yes, Rich, he was tired. Running around, playing wildly, screaming, laughing and hitting occasionally is how over-tired preschoolers behave.
The moral of the story is... let the parents manage their own kids... and don't plan birthday parties after Church.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 5:16:06 PM
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Jenny-Fair
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PB, I am glad I am not the only one who saw that other parents made the situation much worse than it had to be!
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 5:25:44 PM
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doinkdom
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But doesn't Jack, Jr. know his own parents? And that they are the ones he should obey?
I dunno, I guess the other parents made it worse, but if Jr.'s parents had established themselves as the final authority in his life, than maybe...just maybe...
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 5:39:56 PM
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pbaribeault
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I guess I just see some distinction between "having established" themselves as the final authority and "currently establishing" themselves as such. It's my understanding that that authority thing is something kids regularly challenge and need to be met on, not something that just gets done and stays done.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 9:55:09 PM
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CCCdnt
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
quote:
ORIGINAL: CCCdnt
quote:
ORIGINAL: stellaluna
I suspect he's referring to something along the autism spectrum.
Which in my opinion still doesn't justify having a 30-minute+ tantrum in a Wal-Mart. But there's another thread about that.
ASD = Autism Spectrum Disorder
As for 30-minute+... Again, the people observing this most likely do not know the whole situation. If the child has a disabililty such as ASD, then the parent may not have an alternative. There may be items the parent has to get and maybe it may take him/her 30+ minutes. If the child is not causing harm to others (not trying to hit others, for example) then the parent has as much right to be in the store as the parent of a child with any other type of disability. As far as "justification"... I can only assume here that you do not know much about ASD for you to make this comment. Most if not all children with ASD prone to meltdowns can not help this which is where understanding from others comes into play. Meltdowns stemming from ASD are not the same as temper-tantrums that "typical" children have.
What is the other thread?
I probably know more about ASD than the average bear.
Will you please eloborate then on what you mean by your statement "[that a child having ASD]...still doesn't justify having a 30-minute+ tantrum in a Wal-Mart"?
quote:
No explanation necessary.
I am not sure what you mean by this.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 10:58:02 PM
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stellaluna
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I moved that last post and my reply to the other thread, so as not to take Rich's off topic.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/22/2008 11:08:59 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jenny-Fair
PB, I am glad I am not the only one who saw that other parents made the situation much worse than it had to be!
I agree the other parent made the situation worse. You never contradict a parent in front of their child!!
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/23/2008 9:03:27 AM
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zoebob
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Yes parents should always be the final authority in their children's lives. However, when it is a party hosted by another parent they do have a degree of authority. If as adult with some authority in the situation says a behavior is OK and comes across as more lenient than mom and dad of course the child is going to want to obey that one. Children (and all people) are selfish by nature and if someone is going to allow them to do something they don't want to they will try to accept it.
I agree with PB. I was also thinking that if mom and dad said "no" and another adult comes in and says it's OK that is going to be confusing to a child. My kids know I have the final say but if someone else gives the same opinion that I give they are more likely to take it from someone else. I think it's normal for most kids to think other adults are smarter than their own mom and dad.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/23/2008 10:11:02 AM
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stellaluna
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Something to consider, though, is that the parent hosting the party may want the party to go smoothly no matter what the cost. If it was my kid's birthday, the last thing I would want is for another kid to flip out and disrupt it.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/23/2008 10:17:16 AM
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zoebob
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Maybe the kid wouldn't have flipped out if the parents were allowed to handle it without interference.
Besides, letting the hosting family make exceptions is the very thing that leads to kids with behavior problems: exceptions being made to keep the peace.
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RE: Another thread on children from a non-parent - 9/23/2008 10:26:55 AM
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stellaluna
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I'd just prefer my child's party not be the scene of parents putting their foot down and causing their toddler to "meltdown" as some like to say around here. They should have removed the child all together if he couldn't calm down.
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