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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/12/2008 9:58:25 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
todd - it's not whittling hairs- there is no definitive 'Bush Doctrrine'.
Sorry, I disagree.
Historically, presidential doctrines (dating back to Monroe) sum up a chief executive's general philosophy on how the U.S. interacts with the world.
I don't see Bush's (actually, it's more like Cheney's) doctrine encompassing his global response to 9-11 being much different from these previous models.
Plus, I don't see the following quote by Froomkin holding much water.
quote:
Preemption has in fact been a staple of our foreign policy for ages -- and other countries' as well. The twist Bush put on it was embracing "preventive" war: Taking action well before an attack was imminent -- invading a country that was simply perceived as threatening.
Beyond the Bay of Pigs and Iraq (which again, had nothing to do with 9-11), I can't recall the US ever being involved in a preemptive military incursion versus a foreign threat.
Or am I totally blanking on my American history here?
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/12/2008 11:10:30 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7828
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From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
Historically, presidential doctrines (dating back to Monroe) sum up a chief executive's general philosophy on how the U.S. interacts with the world.
I don't see Bush's (actually, it's more like Cheney's) doctrine encompassing his global response to 9-11 being much different from these previous models.
Plus, I don't see the following quote by Froomkin holding much water.
Actually, these determinations are generally made sometime after a President leaves office.
quote:
Beyond the Bay of Pigs and Iraq (which again, had nothing to do with 9-11), I can't recall the US ever being involved in a preemptive military incursion versus a foreign threat.
Or am I totally blanking on my American history here?
What about the Bosnian war - or the first Gulf War, or the Korean war?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:42:41 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1035
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quote:
quote:
Beyond the Bay of Pigs and Iraq (which again, had nothing to do with 9-11), I can't recall the US ever being involved in a preemptive military incursion versus a foreign threat.
Or am I totally blanking on my American history here?
What about the Bosnian war - or the first Gulf War, or the Korean war?
They were not pre-emptive wars... rather the US was reacting to hostilities already in play.
...from 2002:
The National Security Strategy identifies Iraq, Iran, and North
Korea as rogue states, and declares, “[W]e must be prepared to stop
rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten
or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and
our allies and friends.” And this means, “[g]iven the goals of rogue
states and terrorists, the United States can no longer solely rely on a
reactive posture as we have in the past.” Because our enemies see
WMD not as means of last resort, but rather “as weapons of choice
. . . [as] tools of intimidation and military aggression,” the “United
States will, if necessary, act preemptively.”
The core of the threat is the potential marriage of political/
religious extremism and WMD, or what the President has called “the
crossroads of radicalism and technology,” and the threat is so grave
that “America will act against such emerging threats before they are
fully formed.”29
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/PUB207.pdf
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:51:50 AM
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inthysite
Posts: 770
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StephK, thanks for the link:
I think this is a very important excerpt that was edited out and is very telling about exactly how afraid the left is of Palin:
GIBSON: And you think it would be worth it to the United States, Georgia is worth it to the United States to go to war if Russia were to invade.
PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries.
And we have got to be vigilant. We have got to show the support, in this case, for Georgia. The support that we can show is economic sanctions perhaps against Russia, if this is what it leads to.
It doesn’t have to lead to war and it doesn’t have to lead, as I said, to a Cold War, but economic sanctions, diplomatic pressure, again, counting on our allies to help us do that in this mission of keeping our eye on Russia and Putin and some of his desire to control and to control much more than smaller democratic countries.
His mission, if it is to control energy supplies, also, coming from and through Russia, that’s a dangerous position for our world to be in, if we were to allow that to happen.
So for all of you who watched the interview and all you could think of was war, rest easy.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:55:32 AM
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inthysite
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Here's a question Gibson asked that was edited that I would love to see him ask Obama:
GIBSON: But, Governor, we’ve threatened greater sanctions against Iran for a long time. It hasn’t done any good. It hasn’t stemmed their nuclear program.
_____________________________
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart
Be acceptable in Thy sight, O LORD, my rock and my Redeemer - Psalm 19:14
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 11:07:07 AM
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letusreason
Posts: 807
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
Beyond the Bay of Pigs and Iraq (which again, had nothing to do with 9-11), I can't recall the US ever being involved in a preemptive military incursion versus a foreign threat.
Or am I totally blanking on my American history here?
I vote for "blank"
And then there was the Grenada invasion under Reagan which is easy for me to remember since I was a part of it.
Do you ever call day time night as well?
And when the enemy comes here to meet us, will you then say , "the enemy is not here"?
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 11:14:10 AM
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bzirk
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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Haven't read the thread yet, but ABC is business as usual by showing edited clips of Palin in primetime that are not flattering to her. She looks much better when you see the whole interview. Quite a few of the negative news stories written were done before the whole interview was out. I can understand why it was perceived so negatively -- it surely seems like it was edited to look that way.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 11:14:30 AM
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deliveredarling
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quote:
PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries.
Hello, anyone else notice that WE are doing that exact thing we have to be vigilant about to Afganistan and Irag????????
Talk about double standards....
_____________________________
"Now no one after lighting a lamp covers it over with a container, or puts it under a bed: but he puts it on a lampstand, in order that those who come in may see the light."
Luke 8:16
http://www.myspace.com/egaip
Come visit
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 11:33:28 AM
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wing2000
Posts: 1035
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quote:
Haven't read the thread yet, but ABC is business as usual by showing edited clips of Palin in primetime that are not flattering to her. She looks much better when you see the whole interview. Quite a few of the negative news stories written were done before the whole interview was out. I can understand why it was perceived so negatively -- it surely seems like it was edited to look that way.
I agree.
Obviously ABC is exploiting their exclusive interview and milking it for all it's worth. It's all about ratings and money.
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 11:48:06 AM
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bzirk
Posts: 2945
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: deliveredarling
quote:
PALIN: What I think is that smaller democratic countries that are invaded by a larger power is something for us to be vigilant against. We have got to be cognizant of what the consequences are if a larger power is able to take over smaller democratic countries.
Hello, anyone else notice that WE are doing that exact thing we have to be vigilant about to Afganistan and Irag????????
Talk about double standards....
I think our definitions of democratic differ.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 12:38:46 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
What about the Bosnian war - or the first Gulf War, or the Korean war?
a) Bosnia (a NATO action) was intended to stop regional ethnic cleansing which had been going on for some time - it was a responsive action.
b) The First Gulf War was triggered by Saddam's invasion of Kuwait; there was no preemption there on the part of the US - again, a responsive action.
c) Korea was a proxy war versus the Soviets.
None of these conflicts were launched with the intent of "getting them before they get us" a la Iraq.
So Froomkin's claim that the US has always used a doctrine of preemption is historically wrong.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 12:43:34 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
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From: The North Woods
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quote:
And then there was the Grenada invasion under Reagan which is easy for me to remember since I was a part of it.
How was that preemptive? Grenada was a police action, and never represented a threat to the United States.
The whole notion of a preemptive strike is that the other guy represents a "clear and present danger" to your national security.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 1:22:54 PM
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huangshan
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Huh. Here's the transcript of Palin defending the Bridge to Nowhere lie that she and McCain have been flogging to no end.
quote:
GIBSON: You have said continually, since he chose you as his vice-presidential nominee, that I said to Congress, thanks but not thanks. If we're going to build that bridge, we'll build it ourselves.
PALIN: Right.
GIBSON: But it's now pretty clearly documented. You supported that bridge before you opposed it. You were wearing a t-shirt in the 2006 campaign, showed your support for the bridge to nowhere.
PALIN: I was wearing a t-shirt with the zip code of the community that was asking for that bridge. Not all the people in that community even were asking for a $400 million or $300 million bridge.
GIBSON: But you turned against it after Congress had basically pulled the plug on it; after it became apparent that the state was going to have to pay for it, not the Congress; and after it became a national embarrassment to the state of Alaska. So do you want to revise and extend your remarks.
PALIN: It has always been an embarrassment that abuse of the ear form -- earmark process has been accepted in Congress. And that's what John McCain has fought. And that's what I joined him in fighting. It's been an embarrassment, not just Alaska's projects. But McCain gives example after example after example. I mean, every state has their embarrassment.
GIBSON: But you were for it before you were against it. You were solidly for it for quite some period of time...
PALIN: I was...
GIBSON: ... until Congress pulled the plug.
PALIN: I was for infrastructure being built in the state. And it's not inappropriate for a mayor or for a governor to request and to work with their Congress and their congressmen, their congresswomen, to plug into the federal budget along with every other state a share of the federal budget for infrastructure.
GIBSON: Right.
PALIN: What I supported was the link between a community and its airport. And we have found that link now.
Thanks but no thanks!
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 1:40:58 PM
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letusreason
Posts: 807
Joined: 8/30/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
And then there was the Grenada invasion under Reagan which is easy for me to remember since I was a part of it.
How was that preemptive? Grenada was a police action, and never represented a threat to the United States.
The whole notion of a preemptive strike is that the other guy represents a "clear and present danger" to your national security.
do you even know what it was about? Please describe the "police action" in detail?
So,,, let me get this straight, we diverted a carrier task force on course to the Mediteranean for patrol off the coast of Beirut suddenly, dropped airborne rangers, spent millions of dollars on bombs etc... for a police action? ?
Where are you getting this stuff? From Harrison Ford movies you watched? Are you making it up? Because you are presenting nothing to back up what you are saying from history or otherwise.
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 3:40:37 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: letusreason
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
And then there was the Grenada invasion under Reagan which is easy for me to remember since I was a part of it.
How was that preemptive? Grenada was a police action, and never represented a threat to the United States.
The whole notion of a preemptive strike is that the other guy represents a "clear and present danger" to your national security.
do you even know what it was about? Please describe the "police action" in detail?
So,,, let me get this straight, we diverted a carrier task force on course to the Mediteranean for patrol off the coast of Beirut suddenly, dropped airborne rangers, spent millions of dollars on bombs etc... for a police action? ?
Where are you getting this stuff? From Harrison Ford movies you watched? Are you making it up? Because you are presenting nothing to back up what you are saying from history or otherwise.
Grenada was not justified, but nor would I call it pre-emptive. They weren't a threat to us.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 4:03:08 PM
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lightshineon
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Oh Charlie thought he ws going to get one over on her, she is not that way. shre has a Spirit about her, that takes no bull. I like her, because her spirit. I do not charlie G. He is biased.
_____________________________
Remember, whenever you have pearls, there are always plenty of pigs nearby who would be glad to step on them.
F.T., 2007
Be sure you vote for those, whose views you want your children to emulate.
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 5:51:55 PM
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LabGuy
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From: NW Pennsylvania
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I think I understand what's behind a good bit of the media's obvious disdain for Governor Palin. Aside from the fact that she is a huge threat to their preferred candidate, that is. They are behaving exactly like a schoolyard clique, and she is the new and different kid from out-of-town.
Sarah Palin is a politician, no doubt. But the path she followed to this point is very different than the typical one. And being from Alaska, she's been about as far out of the media's usual orbit as you can get. She is genuinely an outsider to them, and they don't like it (especially since she's on the opposite side of the issues). Their treatment of Gov. Palin practically screams, "How dare this country bumpkin come to our playground! We'll show her!"
Reasonable assessment of their behavior or not?
-Robb
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 7:21:35 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
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From: The North Woods
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I saw the entire Palin interview with Charles Gibson last night; it looked like it had been edited with a chainsaw.
quote:
So,,, let me get this straight, we diverted a carrier task force on course to the Mediteranean for patrol off the coast of Beirut suddenly, dropped airborne rangers, spent millions of dollars on bombs etc... for a police action
I hate to break this to you, but Vietnam is technically classified as a "police action" due to no formal declaration of war having been declared by Congress.
By comparison, Grenada was a weekend at Club Med.
quote:
Where are you getting this stuff?
I can read.
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:30:46 PM
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TaoPoohBear
Posts: 532
Joined: 1/18/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
I think I understand what's behind a good bit of the media's obvious disdain for Governor Palin. Aside from the fact that she is a huge threat to their preferred candidate, that is. They are behaving exactly like a schoolyard clique, and she is the new and different kid from out-of-town.
Sarah Palin is a politician, no doubt. But the path she followed to this point is very different than the typical one. And being from Alaska, she's been about as far out of the media's usual orbit as you can get. She is genuinely an outsider to them, and they don't like it (especially since she's on the opposite side of the issues). Their treatment of Gov. Palin practically screams, "How dare this country bumpkin come to our playground! We'll show her!"
Reasonable assessment of their behavior or not?
-Robb
Seems like there's a little bit more to the story then your analysis -
Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes
unless of course you're saying these Alaskans in the article are part of a media clique as well?
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:42:21 PM
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NiceGuy
Posts: 641
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From: The Great State of Confusion
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***Incoming Message from the Big Giant Head ***
quote:
ORIGINAL: miasma
There's inexperience, and there's ignorance. She's got a heaping helping of both, when it comes to the level of knowledge and experience needed for a position of this magnitude.
I was really hoping perhaps this interview would get a serious election back on track, but it just increased the mystification as to how people can take her seriously as a candidate for vice president of the United States of America (outside of how "cool" she is). It'd be downright laughable, if the stakes weren't so high.
I feel the same way about the man on the top of the Democrat ticket. His plan for dealing with Russia's incursion into Georgia? Let the UN deal with it. Oops! Russia has veto power.
http://www.tampabays10.com/news/national/story.aspx?storyid=87027&catid=81
NiceGuy 
_____________________________
Look, I brought a Sombrero! Now we can both be "cool"! - Hobbes, of Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/13/2008 10:55:25 PM
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NiceGuy
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***Incoming Message from the Big Giant Head ***
quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
I saw the entire Palin interview with Charles Gibson last night; it looked like it had been edited with a chainsaw.
I'm with you on that. The public still hasn't been shown the whole interview. I know they have to deal with time constraints, but it was ridiculous how badly it had been chopped up.
I watched all three shows on which ABC showed portions of the interview, and each airing of the same portion of the interview was chopped differently so that it came across differently each time. Charlie Gibson's condescending attitude was quite consistent, however, despite the butchering he did to the interview in the editing room.
NiceGuy
_____________________________
Look, I brought a Sombrero! Now we can both be "cool"! - Hobbes, of Calvin and Hobbes
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RE: Governor Sarah Palin and Her First Interview - 9/14/2008 12:44:59 AM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3415
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From: NW Pennsylvania
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TaoPoohBear
Seems like there's a little bit more to the story then your analysis -
Once Elected, Palin Hired Friends and Lashed Foes
unless of course you're saying these Alaskans in the article are part of a media clique as well?
You do realize that a highly critical article from the New York Times of all sources does very little to refute my point? Which was that the media does not like her. If you focus on digging up dirt (even if true) on one side and give the other a free pass, that's bias. Has the Times done an equally thorough investigation of Senator Obama's past, for example?
Anyway, note that I did say that Governor Palin is a politician. That wasn't a compliment.
-Robb
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