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Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 10:53:49 PM
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Evangel70
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A few posters, myself included, have questioned why so many conservatives are so mean-spirited and full of hatred when discussing political issues. It seems that anytime someone disagrees with the Republican talking points or the far-right agenda, they are automatically labeled as “liberal” and their Christianity is questioned. Any flaw, flip-flop, or attack by the Republican party is explained away while the Democratic party is equated to an agent of satan if they do the same.
I have stated previously that the co-mingling of religion and politics will be detrimental to the church 100% of the time and this forum is a perfect example of that. Where has the ability to “agree to disagree” gone?. Where has the desire to put Jesus first and obey his teaching to “Let your conversation be always full of grace, seasoned with salt, so that you may know how to answer everyone. (Col 4:6)?
The amount of vitriol and bitterness I have seen on this forum has been disheartening in and of itself, but what is worse has been seeing Christians who oppose or question this type of behavior by those who profess to represent the body of Christ called thin-skinned, Obama-worshipers or have the authenticity of the walk with God questioned.
Some of Jesus’ strongest words were to the Pharisees and Sadducees of his time (what we would now call church leaders) who put the letter of the law above the spirit of the law. Jesus warned them “But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. For by your words you will be acquitted, and by your words you will be condemned." (Matt 11:36-37) How many of you have asked yourself before you hit that “submit” button, whether your post reflects your walk with God and whether you would word your post differently if you knew Jesus was looking over your shoulder (because he is)?
Jesus taught his followers that while they may have disagreements and even fail from time to time, they should always remember his last “commandment” to them… “A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another." Will the unsaved or unchurched recognize this forum as a site where “Christians” are know by the love they exhibit toward one another, even when they disagree?
This will be my last post on this forum as I believe it has become toxic to the spirit. If I have offended anyone by any of my previous posts, please accept my apologies. We can all get a little hot-headed from time to time and while I don’t believe I have ever personally attacked another poster, I know there have been times when I could have more diplomatic. To those with whom I engaged in thoughtful discourse (who have not already left the forum), thank you for your input and perspective.
Blessings,
Danny
_____________________________
May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:02:03 PM
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ljmac
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The abortion party has given us 50 million dead, but it's conservatives who are mean. If conservatives are mean, what do you call people who demand legalized dismemberment, disembowlment and sucking the brains out of babies?
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:06:08 PM
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SovereignIsHe
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It's the lack of God in people's politics that is the issue... People believing they can have separate lives... One secular and one Christian and believe there will not be conflicts when they try and combine the two...
As for what the unsaved see in these forums... That gets mentioned a lot but never in regards to what the unsaved see when they witness that many Christians believe in things they hear the bible and or God is against...
Take care....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:24:58 PM
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ManimalX
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I understand what evangel70 is getting at, but I disagree with his conclusion. The problem is a differing definition of what is "mean-spirited" and "hatred". Unfortunately, most liberals I have dealt with think that disagreement equals "mean" and "hate". I would attribute this to the way in which most of the left tends to reach conclusions with emotion rather than mind, and are therefore more apt to react emotionally when they have their conclusions challenged. I might add that if one reads through the majority of threads here, one will find that liberal comments tend more towards rude than the conservative.
Case in point, the OP's assertion that the label "liberal" is a pejorative, when in fact it is simply a label that sums up a worldview. If you support abortion, support the normalization of homosexuality, support larger government, support wealth redistribution, or a variety of other socialist ideas, then you are "left" or "liberal". Vice-versa for "conservative" or "right".
There is also a misunderstanding amongst liberal Christians on what exactly it means to "love" someone. "Love" doesn't mean tolerance of ignorance, tolerance of immorality, or tolerance of every worldview. "Love" doesn't mean having warm fuzzies, though that can be an aspect of it. "Love" is an action. "Love" is the motive behind spanking a child. "Love" is the motive behind calling evil evil for the sake of the one committing the evil. "Love" means telling the truth and pointing out error. However, because the left generally acts out of emotion before reason, they tend to see these as "attacks".
Lastly, Christians should not expect to be treated with kid gloves. If you don't want to be challenged in your thinking, stay out of the discussions, especially political discussions. The bottom line is that most leftist philosophy is anti-biblical, and you can't expect to come to a Christian forum and have anti-biblical views be left alone. One must remember to always be open to rebuke and to realize that the lack of tone that happens in written media can make comments seem harsher than they actually are.
Peace
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:25:27 PM
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Jhud
Posts: 7835
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From: Lake Wobegon
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The overwhelming source of vitriol and hatred here and elsewhere has come from left-wing secularists and their liberal Christian fellow travelers. If it wasn't for the voice of the church in society, I imagine the entirety of our societies discourse would resemble the comment section of DailyKos.
While the discussion here certainly invites improvement, one need only spend ten seconds elsewhere to understand that it is the godless that create much of the poison that now infects our public discourse.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:29:10 PM
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everythingat
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I agree with you, Evangel70. But I think the mud is being thrown by both Democrats and Republicans. The bitterness and anger on here is astounding. Everyone speaks over one another to voice their complaint of bitter fury.
This entire folder has turned into a spiritual class war. Everyone sees the opposition as less than, consistently railing against them. I'm not for either candidate, so my thoughts are certainly not biased. Just about everyone shares part of the blame in this forum.
Edit- All the posts above me, including Evangel's. Liberals: "It's not my fault, the conservatives are mean." And conservatives: "If you take a few seconds, you'll see that it's not our fault and most of the rudeness comes from liberals." Yep.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:49:26 PM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
While the discussion here certainly invites improvement, one need only spend ten seconds elsewhere to understand that it is the godless that create much of the poison that now infects our public discourse.
Having been on a far left liberal website for a minute today* I can back up what Jack said. I look for a different perspective but the hatred is off the charts.
As far as calling someone a liberal here is how I see it. First I do think some of the posters here may not realize just how far right they are so I do think that moderates get tarred with the liberal brush. I have to say I'm right leaning but not too far right and I've never been labeled a liberal.
Here's the important thing (to me) though, if your views fit with what is traditionally a liberal philosophy and you are labeled "liberal" then it shouldn't bother you. Yes the people using the term may mean it as derogatory but if that describes your political views then what's the problem? If I went to a different forum and was labeled a Christian by people who think they're insulting me I wouldn't take it as an insult because I'm proud of it.
If being labeled a liberal (and if its generally accurate) does bother you then you may want to rethink your political philosophy; if you're on the right side then what's the problem?
* I won't name the site as they're vile and I refuse to promote them. They aren't the far left big dawgs but may be an "up and comer" so to speak. I would do the same if it were a far right site, hatred and virtuol are unacceptable regardless of the source period.
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Be my friend!
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:51:17 PM
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ManimalX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: everythingat
All the posts above me, including Evangel's. Liberals: "It's not my fault, the conservatives are mean." And conservatives: "If you take a few seconds, you'll see that it's not our fault and most of the rudeness comes from liberals." Yep.
Only one of those statements can be true. Which one would you say it is?
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/11/2008 11:58:46 PM
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everythingat
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Neither.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 4:05:29 AM
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Annie64
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I read this thread with interest because I've just recently been thinking about this very thing. I am as "right wing" as they come. Just recently, however, I watched a series of old movies that had nothing to do with politics, but because of things I had heard about the main actor in the movies, I started thinking about it. Many vocal liberals come out of Hollywood, and it's very, very easy, at least for me, to forget that the people you see on the big screen really are human beings. This particular actor had been a mega-star, but had become ill, and now you never hear about him. As I watched, I was enjoying the story, but with a "yeah, but" kind of thought in thinking about the actor. I remembered there was something I didn't like about him, and finally I remembered what it was--it was a news story I'd heard about him several years ago that had to do with his own political activism, or sort of political activism, that made it plain that he was squarely on the other side of the political spectrum. Then a new thought struck me as I remembered what I had thought of him after I had heard the story. I hadn't thought about him in years, but my opinion of him hadn't changed. And those thoughts had been anything but charitable. I had appreciated what he did as an actor. Things I saw him in had brought me pleasure. He had had a devastating thing happen to him. But had it ever occured to me to pray for the man? Not that I could remember at all.  (That has now changed.)
So I see what Evangel is saying, and I don't think we can excuse ourselves and say, "yeah, but look how bad they are!" What does it matter if they are mean and hateful? That does not make it okay to be mean and hateful to a lesser degree. Our standard is not how good we look compared to them. Our standard is to be like Jesus.
Many times the things we say and do are not in the least hateful but we are accused of it. There are things that must be said and there are issues that we can't for the sake of our country allow to fall by the wayside. But we also need to remember that if we don't guard our hearts we really can let politics get in the way and forget that liberals aren't the real enemy, but instead are people for whom Christ died.
_____________________________
On Christ the solid rock I stand
ALL other ground is sinking sand.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 7:13:51 AM
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ElmerFishpaw
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I learned long ago that Christians aren't the end all and be all of what is moral. Morality is much more than sexual purity and abortion. The people who rally against abortion alot of times seem to think it's OK to bomb civilians which includes children, in a war. There plenty of moral Athiests out there and I think you can be a diehard Communist and a Christian. Anyone who brings religion into the forums brings their personal interpertation of scripture to the discussion. NOBODY here speaks on behalf of God. Rotten people are rotten people....Athiests or Christians or Buddhists or Hindus or Muslims....
So, everyone on both sides of the spectrum (really there are more than the two ideologies of "liberal" and "conservative") are fighting for a better life for them and their loved ones. People in power love it when we point the finger at each other...just don't point it at them.
_____________________________
"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 8:08:31 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3424
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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Truth hurts.
If you cannot take the truth, find another venue for your entertainment.
If you attack the person instead of their views, then not only is that a poor debate tactic it is also against the TOS.
If you do not like your views to be challenged...don't post here.
If you cannot comment on issues without attacking the people...don't comment.
If you disagree with me...be ready for a response.
If you attack me..well...my cheek doesn't turn aside so well. Be prepared.
If you want some...come get some.
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You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 8:21:00 AM
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P31W
Posts: 2972
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quote:
Unfortunately, most liberals I have dealt with think that disagreement equals "mean" and "hate".
They also consider it mean and hateful to say a baby has the right to live, homosexuality is a sin, and it's the people who earn money who should have the right to use it as they see fit not hand it over to them to do with as they please.
They call this "being mean". They call wanting to support and help the people in our own area that we KNOW are in need rather than letting the government take the money and give it to lazy bums who are crack heads being "hateful" and "unloving"......Tells me something about the liberals mindset.
quote:
A few posters, myself included, have questioned why so many conservatives are so mean-spirited and full of hatred when discussing political issues.
Funny, just yesterday I reported a liberal for using vulgar language on the forum. I've never had to do that before.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 8:42:45 AM
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ElmerFishpaw
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Of course this bickering is all kids stuff compared to the NIKON vs. CANON debates at the photography boards I visit.
_____________________________
"Aurora Borealis is Latin for flying saucer headlights"
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:10:13 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Unfortunately, most liberals I have dealt with think that disagreement equals "mean" and "hate".
They also consider it mean and hateful to say a baby has the right to live, homosexuality is a sin, and it's the people who earn money who should have the right to use it as they see fit not hand it over to them to do with as they please.
They call this "being mean". They call wanting to support and help the people in our own area that we KNOW are in need rather than letting the government take the money and give it to lazy bums who are crack heads being "hateful" and "unloving"......Tells me something about the liberals mindset.
No, we're complaining about the sort of mischaracterizations LIKE YOU JUST DID RIGHT HERE; included in this is the general shutting down of debate by labeling anybody on the other side of certain issues as sodomites and/or murdering baby killers. It's tiring and it's intellectually insulting. I am as pro-life as anybody here, but I can see a cheap , shallow debate tactic for what it is.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:21:19 AM
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Rufas2000
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quote:
No, we're complaining about the sort of mischaracterizations LIKE YOU JUST DID RIGHT HERE; included in this is the general shutting down of debate by labeling anybody on the other side of certain issues as sodomites and/or murdering baby killers. It's tiring and it's intellectually insulting. I am as pro-life as anybody here, but I can see a cheap , shallow debate tactic for what it is.
Great post.
_____________________________
Be my friend!
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:33:40 AM
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Sophie11
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The mischaracterizations and attacks are being felt on BOTH sides. Liberals are labeled as baby killers and cowards, and conservatives are labeled as greedy uncaring capitalist scum. It depends on which side you're on as to what you will be named, but I have seen many comments coming out of both liberals and conservatives. It is certainly not one-sided.
If someone really wants the anger and name-calling on this forum to cease, I would imagine that posting a thread like this is not the answer. It begins by labeling liberals as victims of hatred and vitriol and accusing conservatives of being the only ones who are mean spirited in their debate, which is an obvious untruth and nothing more than an attack on conservatives. How about calling on both sides to account for the carelessness of their words lately?
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:43:30 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
The mischaracterizations and attacks are being felt on BOTH sides. Liberals are labeled as baby killers and cowards, and conservatives are labeled as greedy uncaring capitalist scum. It depends on which side you're on as to what you will be named, but I have seen many comments coming out of both liberals and conservatives. It is certainly not one-sided.
Amongst the general populace, yes. On this message board, no. Probably because this board is overwhelmingly conservative, there's a greater likelihood of having nutty right-winger posting than there is of having nutty left-winger. But no, the amount of vitriol on this message board does not come from both sides equally.
In particular, though, this thread is about Christianity and politics. Christians SHOULD be better than this. Christians SHOULD be above this. Even if the criticism is only directed at Christians, so what? If we claim to follow all of these moral imperatives, why not take some legitimate criticism? Why not step back and look at yourself? Why not take the high road instead of consistently making excusing for taking the low road?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:49:11 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7835
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
Amongst the general populace, yes. On this message board, no. Probably because this board is overwhelmingly conservative, there's a greater likelihood of having nutty right-winger posting than there is of having nutty left-winger. But no, the amount of vitriol on this message board does not come from both sides equally.
In particular, though, this thread is about Christianity and politics. Christians SHOULD be better than this. Christians SHOULD be above this. Even if the criticism is only directed at Christians, so what? If we claim to follow all of these moral imperatives, why not take some legitimate criticism? Why not step back and look at yourself? Why not take the high road instead of consistently making excusing for taking the low road?
First off, not eveyone on this board is a Christian, and it really only takes a few people posting in many threads to create a poisonus atmosphere.
Secondly, it is pretty certain when the worst of the exchanges began - within a few hours after Sarah Palin's nomination, the left began a campaign of rumor, innuendo, and vitriolic personal attacks on the web emanating from the Daily Kos type sites that have grown in popularity among the left, and a number of people here, many of which appeared shortly after that point, began to fill the boards with the worst of it.
So let's make sure we don't pretend we don't know where the slimiest stuff came from.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:51:43 AM
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Sophie11
Posts: 777
Joined: 1/24/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
The mischaracterizations and attacks are being felt on BOTH sides. Liberals are labeled as baby killers and cowards, and conservatives are labeled as greedy uncaring capitalist scum. It depends on which side you're on as to what you will be named, but I have seen many comments coming out of both liberals and conservatives. It is certainly not one-sided.
Amongst the general populace, yes. On this message board, no. Probably because this board is overwhelmingly conservative, there's a greater likelihood of having nutty right-winger posting than there is of having nutty left-winger. But no, the amount of vitriol on this message board does not come from both sides equally.
Well I disagree with you. I think it depends on which side you are on, and you notice the attacks coming from the other side more often than the attacks from your own. But as far as I have seen, there is an equal amount of mean spiritedness on both ends.
quote:
In particular, though, this thread is about Christianity and politics. Christians SHOULD be better than this. Christians SHOULD be above this. Even if the criticism is only directed at Christians, so what? If we claim to follow all of these moral imperatives, why not take some legitimate criticism? Why not step back and look at yourself? Why not take the high road instead of consistently making excusing for taking the low road?
-Dan.
I agree with that. But part of taking the high road is being honest, and the OP was solely about conservatives and their anger without acknowledging the fault of the other side. This seems dishonest to me, and don't know how it is going to accomplish anything at all.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 9:57:47 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Sophie11
quote:
In particular, though, this thread is about Christianity and politics. Christians SHOULD be better than this. Christians SHOULD be above this. Even if the criticism is only directed at Christians, so what? If we claim to follow all of these moral imperatives, why not take some legitimate criticism? Why not step back and look at yourself? Why not take the high road instead of consistently making excusing for taking the low road?
-Dan.
I agree with that. But part of taking the high road is being honest, and the OP was solely about conservatives and their anger without acknowledging the fault of the other side. This seems dishonest to me, and don't know how it is going to accomplish anything at all.
It's dishonest for an outsider to only criticize one group's behavior. It's not dishonest to criticize from within. If you see those in your group not living up to the ideals that they claim to believe in, there's nothing dishonest about focusing only on them, calling for improvement from within. It's not saying "YOU should be better than this." It's saying, "WE should be better than this." There is a difference.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 10:01:15 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7835
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
Status: online
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quote:
It's dishonest for an outsider to only criticize one group's behavior. It's not dishonest to criticize from within. If you see those in your group not living up to the ideals that they claim to believe in, there's nothing dishonest about focusing only on them, calling for improvement from within. It's not saying "YOU should be better than this." It's saying, "WE should be better than this." There is a difference.
In what way, other than being a Christian, is the OP a criticism from 'within'?
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 10:11:59 AM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1934
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It's dishonest for an outsider to only criticize one group's behavior. It's not dishonest to criticize from within. If you see those in your group not living up to the ideals that they claim to believe in, there's nothing dishonest about focusing only on them, calling for improvement from within. It's not saying "YOU should be better than this." It's saying, "WE should be better than this." There is a difference.
In what way, other than being a Christian, is the OP a criticism from 'within'?
In what other way does it matter?
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Conservatives, Christianity & Politics - 9/12/2008 10:15:28 AM
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WesP
Posts: 2451
Joined: 11/28/2005
From: Where God needs me to be
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
It's dishonest for an outsider to only criticize one group's behavior. It's not dishonest to criticize from within. If you see those in your group not living up to the ideals that they claim to believe in, there's nothing dishonest about focusing only on them, calling for improvement from within. It's not saying "YOU should be better than this." It's saying, "WE should be better than this." There is a difference.
In what way, other than being a Christian, is the OP a criticism from 'within'?
In what other way does it matter?
-Dan.
Well, the OP defines the group using 3 characteristics, so that group is a subset of the larger, which is Christian. That being the case, the group is much smaller. So.... 
_____________________________
Peace,
Wes
___________________________________
<--- BTW, this is the true function of corn! It is to help the oil industry and its functionaries, not detract from them! 
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