RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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Your Will Your Way -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (5/25/2005 1:35:20 PM)

I definately think that there are so many situations and circumstances that no one answer is correct. This is my story however, at the moment I am in college and we pay our bills with the student loans and sponsoships that we have both revieved.My course is much less taxing and time consuming than DH so I do much of the housework, cooking cleaning etc, and all the family finances and budgeting. Considering our differing workloads a 50 50 split of all the household duties and chores wouldn't equal an equal partnership. Once we finish school and until we have children we will both work, when/if we are blessed with children I will finish work to care for them if at all possible. As many ladies on here have said, if possible doesn't mean if we can still afford 2 nice cars, biannual vacations and a new wardrobe every season. It means if we can pay the bills, feed ourselves, clothe ourselves and afford to get by frugally. (God will always provide for us we know, but if God provides for us by providing a job for me to go out and earn money in order to survive then that's what I will do,)anyway, if possible I will stay at home and care for my children, look after the home and devote the remainder (if any!) of my time to caring for others and church work. When my children grow up and/or get older, I will probably go back to work at least part time.
I would be honoured to have the opportunity of raising my kids and caring for the home God has blessed us with, and I know that although times may sometimes be tight, my children are going to become better and more rounded people if they are brought up by a fully devoted and caring mother, not by whether or not they have the most expensive clothes or computer games.
I know that this is a privilege that some people cannot afford but I do not understand why it is a priviledge many give up. I love caring for my husband and my home and spending my free time caring and supporting others. It is such a good feeling to have my husband come home after a hard day of classes and work to a clean and warm home and to eat a fulfilling and healthy meal that I have prepared for him. It doesn't make me old fashioned or anti feminist, to me I am embracing the things which I love to do most and acting as a good steward of the gifts that God has given me.



caur -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 11:33:04 AM)

Found this nugget this morning:

When is a woman the best leader in the family? Much to my shame, I can attest to the following. God is good and takes care of the family, even when I am being a jerk....

Pro 11:29 The one who brings ruin on his household will inherit the wind, and a fool will be a slave to someone whose heart is wise.

When I am being an idjit and my wife is not...well...I will just say that God is AWESOME!

EDIT: I felt that I should include that, ideally, the husband and wife serve together, as one. Where one is weak, the other should be strong, and vice versa, as we submit to one another in Christ. One flesh, one mind, one accord. This is the goal.



April75 -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 5:04:38 PM)

I really don't have a clue. I work outside the home. Manage the money. I make pretty much all our financial decisions...If it was left up to him nothing would get done financially so I have to. I cook sometimes and clean. He takes out the garbage and cleans sometimes. He wants me to cook more and clean more. He washes the clothes sometimes and so do I. He expected me to to it all after we got married , his mom was a stay at home mom and did all that. He think it's natural he makes comments about me not doing it all but accepts me doing what I do.



jatfla -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 8:56:48 PM)

I guess I'm in the old-fashioned crowd. If at all possible, I think the mother should be home with her children and manage the household. If there's a father/husband bringing in the money to *support* the family, then as long as the children are in the house, Moma should be there.

Our cuture has instilled in us a *must have* attitude. We must have two cars, we must have TV, we must have vacations. You know what I'm saying.....?? I'm not talking about food on the table, health insurance, and such. But where there's a will, there's a way.

It's HARD work being a Mom. Can I hear an "Amen"? The consistency that is required is draining. Day in, day out... Sometimes I know my daughter is thrilled to leave her children with me as she goes off to work. She knows I'll teach them and care for them and discipline them...but when she comes home...they act out with her. They want her and they know, instinctively, that something is outta whack.

If a woman has a particular skill or dream to pursue, do it while the children are in school or when they're grown. I'm a firm believer in not having children if you want a career and don't have the time or energy to commit to their proper rearing.

Regarding *submittion*; I was listening to John MacArthur this week and his focus has been on mutural submittion "in love". However, he emphasizes that the ultimate authority is the man. And with that authority comes responsibility and accountability.

My husband and I are a team; each doing what we believe God has delegated us to do in order to have a properly functioning home and marriage. Each one is submitting to our roles to give us the best possible environment for a good home-life. Just as I get weary of my responsibilities sometimes, so must he. It can't be all that fun, getting up every day in the dark, driving across town, dealing with people all day, coming home to only find more things to do or the latest crisis! and then giving your hard-earned money over for the welfare and well-being of, sometimes, some very ungrateful family members.[&o]

We don't live in the Garden anymore!!!



jatfla -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 8:58:40 PM)

[:D][:D] I think I really stuttered over that "mutual submission" phrase.



hnt -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 10:44:47 PM)

Rev. Al Miles stated in an article I read recently....

In fact, many of us who grew up in the Christian church were trained to think that the famous instructions to husbands and wives in the book of Ephesians, chapter 5, begin and end with verse 22: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord" (NIV). Proclaimed by the clergy and other pastoral ministers from pulpits and at weddings, and by parents, teachers, and other congregants as well, Ephesians 5:22 has established a foundation on which countless numbers of Christian marriages have been built.

The verse has also been a perfect setup for millions of women to suffer acts of domestic violence.

Over the years, hundreds of violated Christian women have personally disclosed their stories of horror to me. They’ve shared how their Christian husbands have beaten, cursed, raped, and violated them in several other ways. Often, the women have said, the husbands justified their criminal and sinful behavior by citing verse 22 of Ephesians, chapter 5. It’s a husband’s right, the battered women are instructed, to do whatever he wants to his wife. And, no matter what acts of atrocity these husbands commit, Christian wives are told that they need to graciously submit to them in all things.

Sadly, this treacherous lie is also propagated by some Christian clergy and laity. Violated Christian women have been told that Ephesians, chapter 5, verse 22, demands that they "stay, pray, obey and everything will be okay." Because of this inappropriate teaching, many Christian women have suffered greater abuse from their Christian husbands. Some of the women have even died.

In truth, the admonitions in the book of Ephesians to Christian husbands and wives begin not at verse 22, but at verse 21: "Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ." Inclusion of this one sentence puts on a whole new light and brings clarity to the entire passage. No longer can Christians view marriage as a male hierarchical union. Instead, we are challenged to observe the covenant of matrimony like God and Christ intended: as a mutual and egalitarian bond.

The Greek word hupotasso, which the New International Version of the Bible translates in Ephesians 5, verse 21, as to submit, also means to align oneself with, to behave responsibly toward another, or to relate to one another in a meaningful way. Thus, the author of this book is instructing Christian husbands and wives to behave responsibly toward one another, align themselves and to relate to one another in a meaningful and respectful way.

There must never be a hierarchical structure in Christian marriages. Even when husbands are both loving and respectful, when there is no abuse whatsoever in the nuptial, male headship and female submission work against wives because this type of union disallows a woman to be a full and equal partner with her husband. The hierarchical structure is ultimately disadvantageous for husband as well because it prevents them from reaping the benefits of sharing life with a woman who is equal to him in every way.

http://www.teenchallenge.com/socal/index.cfm?domesticviolenceID=1&doc_id=333

Here is the link for most of the article - this is just one part of it.



jatfla -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/11/2005 11:14:28 PM)

quote:

"Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."
That's the answer...when actually lived out. But there is a heirarchy. The word you used "hypotasso" is a military term which means "to align oneself under". In the military, a captain is not superior to a private in character or attributes, but rank. With his rank comes responsibility and obligations. In the verse, "wives submit yourselves", it indicates that she, herself, chooses to "line up under" the headship of her husband. He can't force her; it's her choice as a free agent and equal partner before the LORD. There's the rub. When a husband tries to force the wife to *submit*, then he is out of line.

Gosh...don't you wish we were all without our old sin natures? Just able to freely submit to GOD'S will?

Women....and I speak as an "older woman"....be careful who you choose. Make sure he is a person of integrity and character and spiritual maturity. That being said, "a good man is hard to find". (I don't think that is a verse in the Bible but wise, none the less[;)])



scary_girl -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 5:42:00 PM)

No offense, but the average two income family is doing so to make ends meet, not to have two cars and a vacation in Tahiti. If you want to talk about a career, I never see a man penalized for that. For not being at every soccer game or ballet recitle. As far as children acting out, children by nature act better for everyone else but their parents. My single working mom is doing the best she can. I can't tell you the number of dirty looks she'd get whenever we, or now my niece acts less than perfect. It has nothing to do with her working or strength as a mother. My mother is heads and shoulder far superior to any two parent family on this board. Mistakes or not. Love you Mom!
quote:

ORIGINAL: jatfla

I guess I'm in the old-fashioned crowd. If at all possible, I think the mother should be home with her children and manage the household. If there's a father/husband bringing in the money to *support* the family, then as long as the children are in the house, Moma should be there.

Our cuture has instilled in us a *must have* attitude. We must have two cars, we must have TV, we must have vacations. You know what I'm saying.....?? I'm not talking about food on the table, health insurance, and such. But where there's a will, there's a way.

It's HARD work being a Mom. Can I hear an "Amen"? The consistency that is required is draining. Day in, day out... Sometimes I know my daughter is thrilled to leave her children with me as she goes off to work. She knows I'll teach them and care for them and discipline them...but when she comes home...they act out with her. They want her and they know, instinctively, that something is outta whack.

If a woman has a particular skill or dream to pursue, do it while the children are in school or when they're grown. I'm a firm believer in not having children if you want a career and don't have the time or energy to commit to their proper rearing.

Regarding *submittion*; I was listening to John MacArthur this week and his focus has been on mutural submittion "in love". However, he emphasizes that the ultimate authority is the man. And with that authority comes responsibility and accountability.

My husband and I are a team; each doing what we believe God has delegated us to do in order to have a properly functioning home and marriage. Each one is submitting to our roles to give us the best possible environment for a good home-life. Just as I get weary of my responsibilities sometimes, so must he. It can't be all that fun, getting up every day in the dark, driving across town, dealing with people all day, coming home to only find more things to do or the latest crisis! and then giving your hard-earned money over for the welfare and well-being of, sometimes, some very ungrateful family members.[&o]

We don't live in the Garden anymore!!!



deb77 -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (7/12/2005 9:33:39 PM)

Only a wife can love that husband the way she can. Anyone can prepare the meal, but only she can love him the way he needs to be loved.

Only a mother can love the children, train them and encourage them the way mom's do. Anyone may be able to babysit. I'm a stepmom, so I know a woman can even take over the mother's role, but stepmom isn't the same as mother.

These two roles are far superior to any other occupation, role or chore a woman can do (unless she is single).

I've had the priveledge of having household staff... they did everything so well I began to wonder what good I was in the family.

Now I'm remarried and have 13 underage kids to look out for, one in college and 2 married daughters. I delegate a lot; it's part of their training.

Can anyone prepare dinner? Yes if they have been trained. Can anyone train them? Only those who know how to cook. You get the idea.



Wayfaring_Stranger -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 9:41:21 AM)

Argh.....I was right in the middle of a reply in another thread about housework when, between the time I clicked on reply and the time I finished my post, the thread was closed and we were referred here.[sm=icon_smile_sad.gif][:@]

So, even though it is out of context of its original post, here is the reply I was working on (under the circumstances I haven't read all four pages of this thread -- I usually prefer to read the thread before posting):

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I personally don't see anywhere in the bible where genitalia determines who should push a vacuum cleaner, dust, or clean the toilet.


I think that is rather a crude way to put it, but what do you do with those verses like the ones in Titus about women being keepers at home, 1Tim. 5:14 about women guiding the house, the example in Proverbs 31 of the virtuous woman? Those do make it seem to me that the primary responsibility for the home is the woman's, although it's certainly not wrong for a man to take out the trash or pitch in in some ways. I don't see any similar instructions toward domesticity for men in Scripture. I think basic cleaning up of one's own messes is a matter of character, and the wife is not meant to be a maidservant while the husband leaves a trail of dirty clothes and food crumbs and stuff in his wake for her to pick up. But she is to be the primary housekeeper.



Mandoman -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (8/18/2005 6:54:47 PM)

I rely do not feel it is only my wifes responsability to maintain the house. Right now my wife is going to school, and I am at home. So I coock and clean. In all honesty I place a higher value on these things than my wife, and lke donig them more then she.[;)]



Paradoxdb3 -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 4:26:30 PM)

In the "She Says" section of these forums, I started a threat called "Equality in a Marriage". The respones were many and insightful.

I am a married man and my wife is very dominating. We have been married for ten years and are both very happy. I, however, feel that I need to work on being more of the "head" role in the home as we are expecting our first child soon. My wife knows without a shadow of a doubt that I love her more than anything. But she is just the type to be dominating. I have tried to take the "head of the wife" role (as Christ is head of the church) but always feel guilty. For some reason, I always submit to what she wants and that can cause some problems. I don't really know what to do. If there are any wise men and/or women that would have some encouraging words for my wife, then please feel free to share. Likewise, if there are any wise men and/or women that would have some encouraging words for me, then please do share. Thanks. God bless!!!



Georgia-Peach -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 4:35:24 PM)

In our marriage/household my hubby and I work as a team, but ultimately he is the head. I take care of the inside of the home and he takes care of the outside of the home (yard work, garbage, etc.). He does help with dishes and folding clothes when asked, but I mostly do the household chores and I do not mind. Neither one of is domineering of the other, we treat each other with respect and value the others opinions. I think ever marriage works differently when it comes to this issue, what works for my hubby and I is not going to work for another couple. I do believe the husband should be the head of the household and love his wife as Christ loves the church.



Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 4:36:34 PM)

Well, the biblical answer is found in Ephesians 5:21 - submit to one another. Neither of you should be dominating the other; both of you should be respecting and loving sacrificially. That doesn't mean be an enabler or a doormat, however. Have you ever read the book, "Boundaries in Marriage"? That may give you a good starting point. There's nothing wrong at all with having boundaries, even in marriage! If your DW has a naturally stronger personality than you, the best thing you can do is not to clam up, which might be your natural tendency, but rather keep communicating about your needs. And pray, of course. :)

The healthiest marriages are those in which neither partner dominates over the other. In comprehensive and long-term studies, Christian traditional marriages (where the man is seen as the authority over his wife) have the highest divorce rate of all marriages. Marriages based on mutuality - that is, filled with respect for each other and shared decision making and leadership - have the highest success rate, whether Christian or non-Christian. Here's a link:
http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/Preato3.htm

Would it work if you assigned "areas of leadership" or "areas of expertise" in your marriage? For instance, new vehicles are DH's department. Finances are my department. Education of the kids is usually my department, except when I get worn out (one of the kids has real challenges educationally) and then tag, he's it for awhile. That kind of thing. While each of us has input into the other's "department," the day to day decision making involved is handled by the person in charge. This sounds kinda cumbersome, but after 19 years, it's actually pretty seamless.



Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 4:38:04 PM)

quote:

I do believe the husband should be the head of the household

Georgia-Peach, can you point me to the verse that assigns the husband the job of "head of the household?"



Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 4:39:29 PM)

quote:

I think ever marriage works differently when it comes to this issue, what works for my hubby and I is not going to work for another couple.

That is so key to remember! I totally agree, G-P. As long as a couple is acting biblically, how that works itself out in the details is pretty much between them and God.



SaintPaul -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 7:09:35 PM)

Genesis 2:18 "The Lord God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him"."

God had/has a plan for men, but in order to complete what God has called us to do, we needed a helper because man can't do it alone. Now I'm not saying that man is better than woman, nor the other way around. But throughout the bible, God calls the Husband the head and the authority in Marriage and in the home. The head leads the body, and that's what husbands are to do in there homes and marriage. Which means that the Husband is the final authority. This does not mean that husbands are not to consider their wife's opinion or suggestions. Because rather it be the husbands input or the wife's, the husband has to make the final decision and once the husband does that, it is his decision. Husband and wife in marriage, in Gods eyes,are not in the same position. Just look at what happened to Adam and Eve:

Genesis 3:6-9 "When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked, so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the Lord God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the Lord God among the trees of the garden. But the Lord God called to the man, "Where are you?"."

As you can see, nothing happened to Eve when she ate the fruit first. It wasn't until when Adam ate of the fruit that both of their eyes were opened. Which indicates both the husband and wife's position in God's eyes. Also, remember that it was God who commanded Adam to not eat of the tree of life. (Not Eve). After Eve was created for Adam, it was Adam that told Eve what God had told him about the tree of life..

Genesis 2:15-17 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the Lord God commanded the man (Adam), "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die"."

Because Adam disobeyed God and listened to his wife, we all had to pay the price. Look at it this way, we only have one head on our bodies to tell the other body parts to do. In our vehicles, there is only one steering wheel and driver (head) that control's all functions of the vehicle. In marriage, there is only one domestic head (the Husband). So what ever the Husband decides, it will either bless his marriage and home or it will curse it. (In the spiritual, both husband and wife are equal).

You can not have both husband and wife in same authority in the marriage or the home. We can say how we believe what are marriages look like to us, but it's about what God thinks are home and marriage looks like to him. Jesus was a servant to his disciples, to which husbands are to be to their wives, but never submitted to them. Jesus was always about his Fathers business. No where in the bible does God tell husbands to submit to their wives. This is a trick of the enemy. Watch this:

Submit to God first in everything.

James 4:7 "Submit yourselves, then to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you."

Submission to the authorities.

Romans 13:1-2 "Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves."

Submission in the body of Christ.

Ephesians 5:15-21 "Be very careful, then, how you live-not as unwise but as wise, making the most of every opportunity, be cause the days are evil. Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ."

Submission in marriage.

Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

1 Peter 1:1-7 "Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of you inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers."

Submission in the Christian Home.

Colossians 3:18-21 "Wives, submit to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them. Children, obey your parents in everything, for this pleases the Lord. Fathers, do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged."

May you all have a blessed day.



Georgia-Peach -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/19/2005 9:44:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Coheir

quote:

I do believe the husband should be the head of the household

Georgia-Peach, can you point me to the verse that assigns the husband the job of "head of the household?"

Ephesians 5:22-24 "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

The verse states head of the wife, not household oops[8D] But, that is the verse I had in mind when I said that[;)]



Juda7 -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 9:31:17 AM)

I hear you jatfla from the old fashioned crowed and totaly understand what you are saying!

scary_girl [:)] seems like you were really offended by her post from the tone that I get when I read it or maybe not [;)].

In dealing with family life, a family or single parent has to do what they have to do and that is just the reality of it. Would it be nice for 2 parents to be in the home? Yes! But most of the time that is not the case and again that parent has to do what they have to do. That does not make them better or less than anyone else.

Correct me if I am wrong jatfla but in this statement of:

Our cuture has instilled in us a *must have* attitude. We must have two cars, we must have TV, we must have vacations. You know what I'm saying.....?? I'm not talking about food on the table, health insurance, and such. But where there's a will, there's a way.

I don't think she meant this as an absolute for every family or that if both parents are working this is what they are working towards. It is just not a reality for the majority of people living in this country. For some people it takes 2 incomes just to make ends meat and that is a given. I think what she is saying here is that in her opinon these "must haves" should not be a priority in family life (or these things could be done away with) just because it looks good on the outside and because society or culture says so, as it is for some. Personaly I know a couple of people who live like this. They have namebrand everything (not that there is any thing wrong with it if you can afford it), go everywhere just to say we went and we have but are struggling financialy. This is just one particular couple that I am close to (family). They complain and argue over $ all of the time because they want to live a lavish lifestyle but they do not have the $ to do it. To me this does not make sense. Our families and what we need as a family should be first priority (but not in front of the Lord of course).

I also think that family life is whatever makes that family work regarding income. If the man goes out and works and that works for them good. If the woman works and the husband stays home and that works then fine. Whatever works for that family.

"As far as children acting out, children by nature act better for everyone else but their parents."

This is not a true statement. No offence Scary_girl and please don't take it as such. I don't know what is going one with parenting these days but kids are really embarrassing and the way they act out in malls and in public places is rediculous and when I see it I get very upset! It makes me ask the question who is raising who? My Dad worked and my mother was a housewife. She went to work when all of us were in school and old enough to take care of each other when they were not home. My mom did not play that! All of the rolling of the eyes, back talk, attitudes, door slaming, I hate you remarks (we better not have said that) and all of this bad behavior that I see today would not swing with my parents. Mom and dad did not even have to say a word! They just gave us this look and we knew the deal! I strongly believe it is how a mother (especially if she is at home with the kids all day) diciplines and raises that or those kids and same for the dad. I have noticed with all of the nices and nephews that I have not to let them slide with anything because they will get out of control if the parent does not put a stop to it early.

One more thing everyone. I believe that if it is possible a mother should stay home with a child at least until they are old enough to go to school. That is my opinon because I belive that 0 until about 7 or 8 years of age are the most important years in a childs life concerning dicipline. When my sister had her son maybe about a month later she went to work. My mother practically rasied him. She was with him all day. As he grew he called my mother mom and my sister by her first name. Even though she always made it known to him that she was mommy and mom was nana. He was good with my mom but when she came home he would not listen to her as much and would always run to my mother. He treated us and we treated him like a little brother (we were young). Even now I really don't think that he respects her, maybe because she did not spend as much time with him as he did my mom. I don't know. And he still calls her by her first name but then catches himself and changes it to mom. He is 7 now.

Does it really make a difference according to what you all know and have experienced if a childs mother is the one raising him/her and not anyone else?

Is respect gone?

Would it make that child act bad toward the parent and behave with the caretaker?



Juda7 -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 10:29:11 AM)

I was always against marriage because of what I saw in my parents marriage. She would cook, iron his clothes, clean, and do typical house work and he worked and provided the income.

What really upset me was one day when I was sitting in the kitchen I was talking to my mom asking her a lot of questions concerning why do she do the things that she does for my dad and why he does nothing. At that time all I saw was her doing everything and he just did nothing but work. I did not think that was fair. She told me that she enjoyed it and because that was her job around the house. I did not like that. I told her that she did not have to do anything that she did not want to. Even when she worked she still did those things. I asked my dad now that she is working are you going to iron her clothes? He did not give me the satisfaction with answereing that question. Anyway with in 5 minutes here comes my dad. I probably distracted her because she was using the iron to iron his shirt. He came in and kind of yelled at her asking her "why did you iron under the arms. I asked you not to do that"? Oh did I get mad. I can remember it like it was yesterday. I said "why don't you do it your self?" They both looked at me with a shock because I have never gotten out of line like that before. Every since then I had my mind made up about marriage and I resented my dad for making her do those things and for acting so ungreatful in my eyes ( I don't anymore). They later sat down with me (I guess mom told him about our conversation) and read and explained Eph Chapter 5. I did not like Eph after that. In my mind I said "Let some man tell me what to do and he is not my father! "I wish he would!" This was my attitude for years and this is what I thought marriage was. From this I dominated every relationship that I had with a male be it freindship at that time to relationships up until about 3 years ago. At church in womens bible study I would always play the devils advocate concerning marriage and everyone said because of my attitude I will not get married. I told them "yes I am but not based on what you all are saying and the way your relashionship is and dumb Eph. because that is sexist and degrading!" Like some they had that text screwd up the same way that my parents did. Now that I understand it I don't think marriage is that bad after all.

I think that a woman's role in a home is not only house work for example, it is for both, just like working can be for both. I think that a couple should do what ever works for them.

I personaly do not want my husband to do laundry (he is not messing up my clothes) so I will do it, clean (he does not do it the way that I like it even though he knows how) so I will clean. He likes to cook so he can cook. But when I have my cravings I will cook. He irons his clothes and my clothes because he wants to. And I do it for him because he is always doing little things for me. He makes me want to do things for him because of how he treats me and because I love him. I guess this is where my mom was coming from but I did not understand it then.



neuronstatic -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 12:53:25 PM)

Ok, I will give it a shot. Usually when I land in a thread which is laden with opinion, I usually find I need to leave soon. Oh well, maybe this one will be different.

I apologize in advance for the long post. Some things just take a lot of words.

The scriptural evidence is abundant and clear. I will speak from the premise that the view the the husband is the head of the wife is a fundamental truth beyond debate. It is clearly stated in scripture. What comes to matter of argument is usually related to how this is lived out in our lives. Most opinion and disagreement usually stems from this in Bible believing Christians, not the scriptural basis.

In that light, it is important to consider that there were no microwave ovens in the first century AD. I point that out because it is clear that we live in a different cultural context than did the believers in the first century. That does not mean that you can dispense biblical instruction merely for cultural pretense. You simply must translate the cultural context in addition to those words written in Greek and Hebrew so long ago.

To that end, concern yourselves with what the scriptures say about men and women in the biblical perspective. Certainly God intended a hierarchical relationship because He said so: the man is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church. A scriptural truth that cannot be dismissed with cultural relevance debate.

Now what does it mean to us? Christ established the husband as the "leader" in the marriage. All arguments aside, I have to conclude that when one is the leader in the marriage, that includes in the family and the home. However, as in the poignant example of Christ washing the feet of the disciples, we know that Christ was a servant leader. So the husband is to be a servant leader.

Being a servant leader in the image of Christ would never give one justification to abuse their position. In fact, just the opposite. The man who undertakes this role, the servant leader of the family and home, has taken this role with the pre-supposition that the wife is a godly wife. This REQUIRES that the wife view the husband as the servant LEADER. And this REQUIRES that the husband BE the SERVANT leader. My emphasis is to enforce that husbands need to remember the servant part and wives are to remember that submission to the leader is required in the same way that our submission is required to Christ.

Now what usually brews in people's minds at this point is "if you are saying I have to submit to a tyrannical man then you're wrong." Well, in ways, that is what I am saying. Let's first address the problem of abusive men for just a minute. If the man is being abusive in his position in the marriage, he is in sin and he is violating his marriage covenant with his wife and God. Because he promised to care for his bride like Christ cared for the church. In those cases, which are very much in the minority, I am not advocating staying under the thumb of a tyrant. But your response must be in keeping with biblical teaching. Your reaction to that should be to restore and heal, and you can do that by many firm methods that show you will not be treated like that. Just do it without falling into sin yourself.

I assert that such cases are very much in the minority because I have often heard woman report "abuse" when what they simply meant was "he didn't let me get my way". And in those cases, both better start talking. The man needs to understand his wife and her needs. The woman needs to understand her husband and his needs. Not I did not say that the hypothetical woman was wrong in saying she did not get her way. She may be wrong. She may be right.

Now we are all required to submit to King Jesus in the church. Disagreement? I assume there is none. Given that is the model for the marriage, why is there an assertion that a wife can refuse to submit to her husband's authority?

Now I know this principle has been the basis of too many abuses. But that is no reason to throw out the principle. Arguably one could say that marriage itself is the cause of spousal abuse. From that line of reasoning, it would seem reasonable to thow out the entire concept of marriage and do away with it entirely. In fact, to prevent abuse, we could enact laws prohbiting people from even living together. That would be a natural response following the example of the world and the way they want to pass laws to "protect" us. But then again we are so sinful, someone would still figure out how to abuse someone else.

I come back to Genesis, Proverbs 31, Ephesians 5, and 1 Corinthians 7 every time. Submit to the scriptures, both men and women must submit.

So where do I stand? I describe it this way: the husband is the captain and the wife is the trusted lieutenant. Both are in positions of authority, both command respect from subordinates and from each other. It merely comes back to the captain for resolution of things that cannot be agreed on between the two.

Additionally, traditionally, and I accept this too, the wife is responsible for must of the day to day running of the home (think Proverbs 31). And the husband should respect his wife's decisions and abilities to run the home biblically. If she has weak spots, he should help. He should encourage her strengths.

He should consult his wife in family and household issues. The two should work together. But like I work with my boss, I have to defer to him at times. And likewise because of my expertise he defers to me in some matters.

Sorry for the long post. But I did not want to be misunderstood. At least I tried not to be. But I am sure someone will find much error and fault in my words. Sorry for not doing a better job at it.



Coheir -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 2:54:07 PM)

The word "head" in the context you are speaking of has to do with unity and not hierarchy. For a complete explanation, see http://www.godswordtowomen.org/studies/articles/head.htm , especially towards end of article.



oopsmartin -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 3:51:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wayfaring_Stranger

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisLamb26
I personally don't see anywhere in the bible where genitalia determines who should push a vacuum cleaner, dust, or clean the toilet.


I think that is rather a crude way to put it, but what do you do with those verses like the ones in Titus about women being keepers at home, 1Tim. 5:14 about women guiding the house, the example in Proverbs 31 of the virtuous woman? Those do make it seem to me that the primary responsibility for the home is the woman's, although it's certainly not wrong for a man to take out the trash or pitch in in some ways. I don't see any similar instructions toward domesticity for men in Scripture. I think basic cleaning up of one's own messes is a matter of character, and the wife is not meant to be a maidservant while the husband leaves a trail of dirty clothes and food crumbs and stuff in his wake for her to pick up. But she is to be the primary housekeeper.



Yes, it was a bit crude, but I think the person has a good point. Prov. 31 was extolling all the good and wonderful things that wives do for their husbands. It was not a list of requirements. Something to keep in mind. Wonderful wives today don't have the same kind of lives as when Prov. was written some 3000 years ago or so. But women still do an incredible job of keeping families together and working.

In Titus a better translation than "keeper-at-home" might be guardian of the home, keeper of the home, see-er in the sense of watcher of the home, caring for the home, these all work to give us a picture of how that word is used, meant. Literally, oikouros simply meant "home see-er". The unusual concept of inserting the word "at" and some taking that to mean that wives must stay "at" home is quite extrabiblical. In those days when children were plentiful and sustaining life was hard it was pretty important that wives be present to care for all those children. Even when it meant managing the servants who cared for the children, they did need to tend to their overseeing job before doing other things.

In 1 Timothy 5 the word tranlasted as guiding the home is oikodespoteo. You all know the meaning of despot, yes. Basically, it was saying that a woman needs to tend to her family, rule the household, the servants, etc., rather than run around gossiping and socializing.

None of them are giving any kind of authoritative list of activities from which one cannot deviate. We live a different sort of life these days. Since the Messiah has been born and the world sufficiently populated, there really isn't any need for large families. Husband and wife are more free from preservation of life demands so that they can order their lives together in other ways than how it was done two to three thousand years ago. We are free in Christ. These are not sin issues.

However, bottom line is that both husband and wife need to tend to the organizing and running of their lives, including the household, together so that it works for the whole family.



oopsmartin -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 4:33:52 PM)

quote:

So where do I stand? I describe it this way: the husband is the captain and the wife is the trusted lieutenant. Both are in positions of authority, both command respect from subordinates and from each other. It merely comes back to the captain for resolution of things that cannot be agreed on between the two.


And it is this very belief system of marriage that is at the root of the Baptist denomination being the proud holder of the highest divorce rate. Little pink and blue boxes lined up neatly with all blues on top makes a nice decorative orderly vision in the mind. However, it does not encourage nor fan the flames of united oneness of two souls. Marriage is made so that two can become one again as the first two humans were one in the garden of Eden.

Indeed sometimes, in some areas, such as with children, your captains vision may work for a time for the completion of tasks. But as people get older, wiser, more knowledgeable such an arrangement is stilting for many (should I say most) women. Many women learn to keep their complaints to themselves and put on proper smiles and body genderflections, but the inner frustrations with such preferences does not go away.

So the question is, is a man's love for his wife deep enough that he will sacrifice his easily obtained captains hat in order to more fully unite with his wife, serving her needs for viability, growth, freedom of personhood?



neuronstatic -> RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread (9/20/2005 5:30:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: oopsmartin

quote:

So where do I stand? I describe it this way: the husband is the captain and the wife is the trusted lieutenant. Both are in positions of authority, both command respect from subordinates and from each other. It merely comes back to the captain for resolution of things that cannot be agreed on between the two.


And it is this very belief system of marriage that is at the root of the Baptist denomination being the proud holder of the highest divorce rate. Little pink and blue boxes lined up neatly with all blues on top makes a nice decorative orderly vision in the mind. However, it does not encourage nor fan the flames of united oneness of two souls. Marriage is made so that two can become one again as the first two humans were one in the garden of Eden.

Indeed sometimes, in some areas, such as with children, your captains vision may work for a time for the completion of tasks. But as people get older, wiser, more knowledgeable such an arrangement is stilting for many (should I say most) women. Many women learn to keep their complaints to themselves and put on proper smiles and body genderflections, but the inner frustrations with such preferences does not go away.

So the question is, is a man's love for his wife deep enough that he will sacrifice his easily obtained captains hat in order to more fully unite with his wife, serving her needs for viability, growth, freedom of personhood?


Wow. And I am not even Baptist!

I think you are saying the husband and wife are equal? Is this the case? Well I would respectfully have to disagree with that given that if you hold the marriage of husband and wife, per Ephesians 5 and 1 Corinthians 7, to be the model, then that implies we are equal to Christ. And I must disagree with that.

In terms of the "united oneness", I am one with Christ. In Him I find life, strength, being, and the only salvation possibile. And though I am in Christ, and I am one with Christ, I am not equal to Christ.

In the "united oneness", in the eyes of God, there is no male nor female, slave nor free, Jew nor Greek. So the husband and the wife are both children of God equally deserving the punishment of death, but equally saved through the same Christ. However, that salvific view of the individuals does not transltate to the hierarchical administration of the family as given in Ephesians 5.

Therefore I cannot accept the assertion that the husband and the wife are equal when there is no scriptural evidence to support such a position.



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