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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2007 1:52:21 PM
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KHutcheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PDChaplain
In the case of "Bill", he was the victim of the ole bait n' switch routine. They were married 9 years and their divorce just became final. Needless to say, as the man, he was raped financially and he only gets partial custody of his son. Now, prior to their marriage, she gave him every reason to believe she was willing to let him lead the household. Nada!!! She turned out to be an independent career girl who insisted on wearing the pants in the family. She would not submit to his leadership and she showed every tendency of the egalitarian "sister". She made it a habit to habitually question his decisionmaking and his goals in life. She allowed her GROWN children from a previous marriage to rule the roost. They actually physically abused her, yet she enabled their behavior and blasted "Bill" when he dared to interceed. She refused to accept her role as helpmate and did all she could to emasculate him. Typical behavior from the egalitarianists ....... she inserted her will and he became passive, doubleminded, and emasculated. It took time for this scheme of the enemy to destroy this family ..... 9 years in their case.
This is not egalitarian behavior. This is not even Christian behavior. This women did not submit to him (as per Ephesians 5), she did not respect him, or show any sacrificial love for him. So I don't think you can chalk this up to egalitarianism, which upholds mutual submission, mutual respect, mutual sacrificial love and shared leadership. This woman's behavior is the very antithesis of egalitarian. However, one phrase you used does raise a red flag with me. You said quote:
she inserted her will as if it is wrong for a woman to have a will of her own. That is not biblical.
Kevin
_____________________________
"The grace of God means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you." (Frederick Buechner)
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2007 6:31:19 PM
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PDChaplain
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Kevin, on the contrary ..... the example I shared is quite common in marriages where one espouses egalitarianism .... usually the wife .... and the husband attempts to model healthy servant-leadership as a complimentarian. In this case, the brother got burned by his pro-fem wife as she misrepresented herself. By her deception and rebellion, the whole premise of their marriage was based on deceit and manipulation. 
Concerning her attempts to impose HER will upon him and the marriage .... if you think this is correct behavior from her, then you are also deceived, brother. We are not talking about her simply voicing an opinion. What really happened is that she wanted to wear the pants in the family and she sought to undermine him at every turn. She tried the same tactics during the legal phase of their divorce. At one time, "Bill's" attorney commented on her arrogant attitude towards even the judge in their case .... and he speculated whether or not she thought SHE was the judge in the matter. Again, the spirit of Jezebel at work. 
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/15/2007 8:16:56 PM
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KHutcheson
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As I said, this is selfish, manipulative behavior, not the mutual loving, mutual self sacrifice and shared leadership of egalitarianism. You can call it that, but it is a lie.
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"The grace of God means something like: Here is your life. You might never have been, but you are because the party wouldn't have been complete without you." (Frederick Buechner)
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RE: RE:Men's/ Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 8:23:59 AM
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PDChaplain
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Steve, I have been divorced from a marriage of 20+ years. I remained single for 2 years before I was blessed in marriage once again. I also have 12 years of experience as a police chaplain and 18 years of commissioned enforcement experience myself. I have been an interim pastor, I have 8 years of prison ministry experience, and nearly 30 years of other lay ministry activities. I am not a novice, brother. I have been a DivorceCare facilitator for 2 years. This is all due to the grace of Jesus! He gets the glory, not me! He called me to the ministry at age 19, when I was also baptised in the Holy Spirit. The day will come, if Jesus tarries, when I will be pastoring a church once again. My wife and I have a heart for the divorced and for married couples in particular.
I say these things not to puff me up, but to show you that I am fully able to discern the errors of the egalitarianist movement of the last 40 years ..... paralleling the vast increase in the divorce rate among Christians, to no surprise. I will always stand firm against anything that the enemy sets up against marriages.
The example I shared about "Bill" is, unfortunately, not an isolated incident and it is becoming MUCH more of a problem.
Please allow me to ask you a question, brother. If you get a revelation that complementarianism is the truth of marriage roles, and if you get convicted by the Holy Spirit that this is the new way you should govern your family ...... what would your wife's reaction be? Would she be submissive to your leadership and obey the new direction, without murmuring/nagging/secondguessing? Would she be stiffnecked and resistant?
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 3:05:34 PM
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myka
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quote:
They all share self-esteem issues. They all reached a point where they acknowledged their faults in the marriage. They are in varying degrees of healing and moving on with their lives
Unfortunately, this is very common in Christian women who have been taught that men should be making the decisions. It removes any sense of responsibility and accountability from them. Eventually, they become unable to do for themselves. Quite honestly, it is a very dangerous place for anyone to be. They "need" a person to take charge, but cannot do it for themselves. If they are not taking responsibility for their spiritual lives, that is not the teaching of evangelicalism.
As I stated before, my dh and I were taught this in our premarital counseling and followed it through the early years of our marriage. Eventually, he began to believe that I was incapable of making decisions and "taking charge". I suppose if I hadn't been raised to have a strong sense of my self, I would too (sometimes I would start thinking that way). I have seen it in so many of my women friends whose beliefs are in this matter.
quote:
She would not submit to his leadership and she showed every tendency of the egalitarian "sister". She made it a habit to habitually question his decisionmaking and his goals in life. She allowed her GROWN children from a previous marriage to rule the roost. They actually physically abused her, yet she enabled their behavior and blasted "Bill" when he dared to interceed.
This is a difficult situation with a second marriage. There are a lot of patterns of behavior that have become ingrained in relationships, and sometimes, it is difficult to change those.
Biblical egalitarianism is not about one questioning the other's decisionmaking or goals in life. It is about considering the other before yourself, mutual submission (not about placing either spouse above the other).
Our human tendency is to put ourselves above others. I have seen it in marriages more than anywhere else. I have also seen the damage it can cause to those who are married to spouses who continually put themselves first. It is not a Christian thing to do.
I agree with my brothers who have stated that servant-leadership is compatible with biblical egalitarianism.
May God bless you.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 3:21:03 PM
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PDChaplain
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I disagree with the egalitarianist definition of mutual submission. This in no way should be construed as saying that a man should not take into account his wife's views, pray, and then make a final decision in a humble way when a consensus cannot be reached. I've stated my reasons for my belief that once that threshhold is crossed, the wife's responsibility ceases (other than to be submissive to her husband's decision both publicly and privately) and the husband is held responsible before Jesus.
I will again defer to Dr. Wayne Grudem of the CBMW.
http://www.soulcare.org/Counseling/MythofSubmission.html
An excerpt ......
"How do egalitarians avoid the force of Ephesians 5:22, Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord ? Easy: they just look at verse 21, which says, Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Then they say, Of course wives are to be subject to their husbands, but husbands are also to be subject to their wives.
The result is what they call mutual submission, and in their view that means that there is no unique authority or leadership role for the husband in a marriage. They redefine 'submission to mean something like considerateness, thoughtfulness, an attitude of love toward one another, putting the other person's interests above your own.
Of course no one can object to the ideas of mutual considerateness, thoughtfulness, and love! These are clearly taught in the New Testament. But are these ideas what this verse, Ephesians 5:21, really means? I do not think so. In fact, I think that the whole idea of mutual submission as an interpretation of be subject to one another in Ephesians 5:21 is a terribly mistaken idea. It can be advocated only by failing to appreciate the precise meanings of the Greek words for be subject to and one another. Once these terms are understood correctly, I think the idea of mutual submission in marriage will be seen to be a myth without foundation in Scripture at all."
and another .......
"Here is the point: None of these relationships are ever reversed. Husbands are never told to be subject (hypotasso) to wives, nor the government to citizens, nor masters to servants, nor the disciples to demons. Clearly parents are never told to be subject to their children! In fact, the term hypotasso is used outside the NT to describe the submission and obedience of soldiers in an army to those of superior rank (see, for example, Josephus, War 2.566, 578; 5.309; compare the adverb in 1 Clement 37:2). The Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon even defines hypotasso [passive] to mean be obedient (p. 1897).
Of course, the exact form submission takes, the way it works out in practice, will vary greatly as it applies to soldiers, to children, to servants, to the church, and to wives. Within a healthy Christian marriage, there will be large elements of mutual consultation and seeking of wisdom, and most decisions will come by consensus between husband and wife."
Please take note of the way the complementarian way works in the healthy mode ..... unlike the deliberate distortions of it as brought by the pro-fem platform. 
No one here or elsewhere has EVER shown me Scripture telling husbands to submit to wives .... or be subject to wives .... to obey wives .... or to allow a wife leadership over the family structure.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 5:03:33 PM
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hnt
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quote:
No one here or elsewhere has EVER shown me Scripture telling husbands to submit to wives .... or be subject to wives .... to obey wives .... or to allow a wife leadership over the family structure.
There are alot of men that because overbearing, controlling and very domineering behavior.....and take those verses to literally and destroy their families as well.
Its like they forget about the consideration, loving, serving etc. You speak alot about the ProFem, but this is also a HUGE issue! LOL What is that called ProMAS? (masqueline behavior)
When you concentrate to much on one side you tend to forget the other direction. You also read alot about churches that tend to encourage that behavior as well. They also could help with the downfall of families.
Its sad either direction for me personally.
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h
Emotional abuse and Faith
Reaching for IT!!!!!!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 5:16:29 PM
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myka
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I think that a lot of the teaching does not convey the extent that the husband is to love his wife sacrificially, and be willing to give up everything for her -- he is to take the "lead" in sacrificing putting his life aside for her (as Jesus did for the church). Jesus left his "position" in Heaven, he left glory itself for the church. Jesus also taught about "leadership" -- leaders are not to lord it over others, but are to be servants of all. There is nothing in the NT about the husband having "final say".
This is why there is no conflict with Biblical servant-leadership(not "final say" complimentarianism) and mutual submission. In both instances, the spouse's interests are put above one's own.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/16/2007 5:26:55 PM
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TammyIsBlessed
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DH and I believe that the husband is supposed to be the head of the home. My DH is a wonderful example of a servant leader - he does so much for me and the children. His goal is always to make our lives easier/better by giving of himself.
In practice, however, I don't believe there ever has come a decision that he's had to make because we can't agree. There are times when he submits to what I want and times where I submit to what he wants, but I honestly can't think of a time when we were literally a deadlock and he had to pull the "final say" card. I'm not sure what could possibly come up where that would be required.
All that being said - since being married to my dh I have not become less confident in my decision making abilities. Quite the opposite in fact! When I was younger, my mom pretty much decided everything for me. And any decisions left up to me were slightly manipulative in a passive-aggressive sort of way (I truly believe she was unconsciously doing this). Anyway, when we married I really didn't even know how to be decisive nevermind assertive! My DH has encouraged me to think for myself, to say what I really want (even, or especially if it is different from what he wants) and to make decisions decisively and confidently.
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I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something. I will not refuse to do the something I can do. Helen Keller
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/17/2007 12:44:03 PM
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PDChaplain
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This challenge is still open .... any takers??? 
"No one here or elsewhere has EVER shown me Scripture telling husbands to submit to wives .... or be subject to wives .... to obey wives .... or to allow a wife leadership over the family structure. "
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2007 12:07:13 PM
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suzanned
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What you fail to convey that discernment is equally achieved by both male and female that dwells within the believer through the Holy Spirit. One is no more spiritually capable than the other, however both are differently gifted as given by God. We are priesthood of believers which means that both come before the Father without any human interventional need.
To achieve Gods will for one flesh as seen in the marriage covenant, then you would see God actively guiding man and woman toward the same vision or good. To this, then God would be the leader. We serve Him. His will be done. To do this in union you would have to come to agreement in God. THis is done by praying together and apart, reading through Scripture, seeking God's promptings and submitting to His desire. Sounds like a lot of mutuality.
If you reread the posts I did show how submission and sacraficial serving are almost identical.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/18/2007 4:34:09 PM
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mbxright
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This is to PDChaplain, in response to his challenge.
I Corinthians:
"7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."
The wife owns her husband's body. He must submit to her in the marriage bed.
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 2:57:15 PM
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PDChaplain
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
What you fail to convey that discernment is equally achieved by both male and female that dwells within the believer through the Holy Spirit. One is no more spiritually capable than the other, however both are differently gifted as given by God. We are priesthood of believers which means that both come before the Father without any human interventional need.
To achieve Gods will for one flesh as seen in the marriage covenant, then you would see God actively guiding man and woman toward the same vision or good. To this, then God would be the leader. We serve Him. His will be done. To do this in union you would have to come to agreement in God. THis is done by praying together and apart, reading through Scripture, seeking God's promptings and submitting to His desire. Sounds like a lot of mutuality.
If you reread the posts I did show how submission and sacraficial serving are almost identical.
Suzanned, this all sounds very well and good ..... but in light of what the BIBLE says .... you nor anyone else here has answered my earlier, foundational inquiry. If a practice or theology (Feminist Theology) cannot be established by Scripture, then it is to be cast aside as mere human tradition or dogmas.
Please allow me to remind you, sister!
"No one here or elsewhere has EVER shown me Scripture telling husbands to submit to wives .... or be subject to wives .... to obey wives .... or to allow a wife leadership over the family structure. "
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 3:00:15 PM
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PDChaplain
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mbxright
This is to PDChaplain, in response to his challenge.
I Corinthians:
"7:4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife."
The wife owns her husband's body. He must submit to her in the marriage bed.
UUUMMMM ..... sorry ..... but you certainly have a strange interpretation of this one verse ..... it's not gonna cut it. Try again?
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 3:16:30 PM
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mbxright
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What is your interpretation of this verse, PDChaplain?
The plain and simple reading, agreed on by most, is that each spouse in a marriage submits to the other in the marriage bed. How does your interpretation differ?
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 3:38:48 PM
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suzanned
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The v 21 in Ephesians shows that we submit to one another in Christ. The word submit is not in the original Greek in v22, so we must look to it in the context of v 21. In fact, the sentance begins in v15 so then we must look to it in the context of life in the Spirit
In what way does my example of Christian marriage differ from yours? Do you not empower your wife's giftedness and put her needs before your own? Do you not pray with her and accept her discernment of God's will as equal to yours? Do you not wait on God to provide His will when you dont agree on how God is directing you on an issue?
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RE: Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 4:06:20 PM
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PDChaplain
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Suzanned, it has been proven the most reliable exegesis of verse 21 is that it has NO connotations to marriage ...... it is plainly addressing people to people relationships in the church. Paul's teaching on marriage begins in verse 22. There is a clear separation of people groups here and two specific sets of instructions for each one. One thought is separate from the other and it should be obvious that Paul is clear in splitting them up .... as he should have in keeping with the WHOLE counsel of the Word.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 7:26:55 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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If you want to maintain balance, watch for the title changes. Fritz gave the thread the title of "Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread." When you answer a post from someone who changed the title to "Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread," this is what will appear on your post, unless you change it in the subject line.
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/19/2007 9:02:49 PM
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suzanned
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quote:
One thought is separate from the other and it should be obvious that Paul is clear in splitting them up .... as he should have in keeping with the WHOLE counsel of the Word
Really, because it is included in one sentance in the Greek.
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2007 8:59:39 AM
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PDChaplain
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Covaan_Meshuga ..... can't quite resist, can you???
Suzanne, please allow me to amplify on Eph. 5:21-24.
It is my opinion that the pro-fem approach seeks to look for a way to avoid the force of Ephesians 5:22. I agree with Dr. Wayne Grudem's analysis here .....
http://www.soulcare.org/Counseling/MythofSubmission.html
This explanation also parallels perfectly in thought and application with Paul's instructions in I Peter 3:1-6.
1Wives, in the same way be submissive to your husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, 2when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. 3Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. 4Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. 5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.
Sister, women are to be submissive (hupotasso) to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed (hupakouo) Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters IF you do what is right (be submissive and obedient) and do not give way to fear.
Moreover, the Greek word for submission used in I Pet. 3:6 is the SAME word used for submission of wives to their husbands in Eph. 5:24. This again proves that submission refers to obedience. The word "hupotasso" also means "to obey" and "to submit/subject". It is the EXACT same application that we also see is Titus 2:3-5.
3Likewise, teach the older women to be reverent in the way they live, not to be slanderers or addicted to much wine, but to teach what is good. 4Then they can train the younger women to love their husbands and children, 5to be self-controlled and pure, to be busy at home, to be kind, and to be subject (obedient, "hupotasso") to their husbands, so that no one will malign the word of God.
Suzanne, once again I remind you and the other egalitarians that the Bible is correctly judged by THE PREPONDERANCE OF SCRIPTURE .... THE WHOLE COUNSEL. I am well aware that egalitarians take particular issue with the Apostle Paul and seek to somehow invalidate his words "as not as authoritative as compared to Jesus". The fact is, Genesis was the foundation of marriage submission, Jesus confirmed it, while Paul built upon that foundation. They are in total agreement and certainly applicable to the Church Age.
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2007 11:34:18 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
If you want to maintain balance, watch for the title changes. Fritz gave the thread the title of "Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread." When you answer a post from someone who changed the title to "Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread," this is what will appear on your post, unless you change it in the subject line.
This really has nothing to do with the topic of the thread.
The thread title on the folder page is the official title.
I don't care if someone changes the subject of one's post. It is a non-issue and off-topic.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Home - One Stop Thread - 8/20/2007 2:59:07 PM
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PDChaplain
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Some excellent guidelines for the husband's role here .....
http://www.bible.ca/marriage/husbands.htm
I like this quote from the site ......
"Role model for wives is the church. Role model for husbands is Christ. (Christ also example for wives in submission, I Pet. 3:1.)"
_____________________________
These things I have spoken unto you, that in Me you might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world. Jn 16:33
I do not accept PM's from ladies. Thank you and God bless!
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