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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 12:50:11 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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Hee-hee-hee! We could try those thing gently, while I am barefooted! 
This reminds me of when my daughter was in her first year of jr high school, and a boy kept harassing her on the bus. No one would help her when it was reported. We were not fighters, but one night, I made her practice hitting me and other things, while I was surrounded by pllows. The next day, when the boy attacked, she gave him what he deserved. He never touched her again.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 1:14:37 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
but then when they would extend their dirty disgusting looking hand toward me to thank me
You do realize you're describing a human being, right?
Yes and that is why this post is here, so that he can know what to do. the hand was dirty and he felt disgusted and wanted to know what to do so that in real life next time he meets someone with dirt on them what to do.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 1:17:56 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6018
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
ORIGINAL: solomonsprayer
but then when they would extend their dirty disgusting looking hand toward me to thank me
You do realize you're describing a human being, right?
Yes and that is why this post is here, so that he can know what to do.
Sounds to me like solomonsprayer might have needed reminding that this was a human being, actually.
quote:
the hand was dirty and he felt disgusted and wanted to know what to do so that in real life next time he meets someone with dirt on them what to do.
Let's hope he/she does now then.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 1:21:06 PM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3396
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So the next time a person shakes my hand and uses a straight arm I should be.....what...offended?
I was in the mall one day getting a haricut. I was dressed well and after the harcut all nice and neat. I decide to go into a drug store at the mall to get something.
There were two people ahead oif me in line who were not clean or wearing nice clothes. You could see the disgust on the face of the clerk and when I came up to her when they had left she made comments about their appearence to me.
What she didn;t know is that often, on my way home from work I stop at stores to pick up something...often more dirty than the fellows who preceded me. I was always a little self concience doing so...and she reaffirmed that.
Now I don't care. I go out in public all the time and not in the most presentable ways all the time.
Oh well.
From stone dust to manure, I've been covered in it all.
So...what is dirty? Nothing.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 1:30:49 PM
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Covaan_Meshuga
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So the next time a person shakes my hand and uses a straight arm I should be.....what...offended?
Having been pulled into a hug by men who shouldn't have, who made me uncomfortable by it, believe me, I will use the strong-arm hand shake more than in the instances I have asked about here. Men who think they can take advantage of women because they are women need to be taught a lesson, and I am just the one to be the teacher, Son. If that offends anyone, that is not my problem.
_____________________________
Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 2:30:51 PM
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manda59
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So the next time a person shakes my hand and uses a straight arm I should be.....what...offended?
If you like, that's your choice!
I actually always shake hands that way, no matter who it is, and just make it a little more rigid when I am unsure of the other person. Same as I always shake hands with a firm grip, not like a wet fish or limp lettuce.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 3:44:32 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Sounds to me like solomonsprayer might have needed reminding that this was a human being, actually.
Let's hope he/she does now then.
The way the OP felt guilty about it - showed that he/she realized it, and wanted to know correct etiquette in the chat room where we can feel safe and ask questions, in order to perchance next time when meeting up witha person what are his/her options.
if he/she didn't think of this person with dirty hands as a human being he/she would have said 'get outta here you slimy dirty person" but he/she did not.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 3:47:34 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Covaan_Meshuga
quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
So the next time a person shakes my hand and uses a straight arm I should be.....what...offended?
Having been pulled into a hug by men who shouldn't have, who made me uncomfortable by it, believe me, I will use the strong-arm hand shake more than in the instances I have asked about here. Men who think they can take advantage of women because they are women need to be taught a lesson, and I am just the one to be the teacher, Son. If that offends anyone, that is not my problem.
i've had to tell a man who does not realize his handshake is TOO HARD - not to shake my hand so hard coz it hurts when he does. otherwise i wont be able to do my job coz they broke my hand, but we as "christians" are supposed to let everyone do to us whatever they want in the name of politically correct "love". NOT!
we need to remember that some people may have issues about our touching them and should not make that person feel bad for having issues!
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 4:12:01 PM
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KuKu
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
Sounds to me like solomonsprayer might have needed reminding that this was a human being, actually.
Let's hope he/she does now then.
The way the OP felt guilty about it - showed that he/she realized it, and wanted to know correct etiquette in the chat room where we can feel safe and ask questions, in order to perchance next time when meeting up witha person what are his/her options.
if he/she didn't think of this person with dirty hands as a human being he/she would have said 'get outta here you slimy dirty person" but he/she did not.
As someone who has worked with homeless/poor/immigrant people for many years, I have seen this happen many times, and I have good enough relationships with a few of them to have them tell me how they felt. The message here, in case like this, IS what you wrote... by actions, rather than word. What the homeless get is: "I am 'kind enough' (read often as better than you) and can give you STUFF, but personal contact with you is just too nasty for me..." It's kinda like the samaritan parable- I'll toss you a band-aid, but I am passing on the other side of the road as I do it...
I appreciate that the OP saw a problem and is looking for a solution- and a solution has been given. Either pull out the sanitizer after he walks away, or keep baby/sanitizer wipes in the car. You can then meet physical needs, and emotional ones too... showing both concern and LOVE for the other person. I learned this lesson the hard way- my first attempts at 'meeting needs' left a lot to be desired, so I took what advice I was given, and was able to build relationships with those I served.
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I have run out of creative siggies. Please make up your own and give the credit to me.
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 4:51:53 PM
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LastofAll
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It seems that whether we are giving food or drink, or opening our home to, or giving clothes to, or visiting; yes and indeed even shaking hands with…the least of these, Christ´s brethren, we are doing so to Him. Likewise if we are not willing to extend our hand to these least, then we are not to Christ.
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 5:38:52 PM
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DreadPirateRandy
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
the hand was dirty and he felt disgusted and wanted to know what to do so that in real life next time he meets someone with dirt on them what to do.
How is shaking someone's "dirty, disgusting" hand any different than walking in a mud puddle barefoot or with sandals (whether purposefully or not)? Either way, you're going to get dirty, but the likelihood of getting sick in both cases is little to none.
Unless you immediately begin sucking your thumb or toes, which again, isn't the likely case.
I just don't find it appropriate, regardless of the situation, to view another being as dirty or disgusting.
Have you ever thought what it would be like shaking Jesus' hand? He touched the sick, the demon-possessed, the crippled, and all of which society has come to view as dirty or disgusting.
We are called to be separate from this thinking. If Jesus did it, then why is shaking someone's hand, or simply touching them, too good for us?
_____________________________
The lunatic, the lover, and the poet, are of imagination all compact.
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 5:53:43 PM
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manda59
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From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: WesP
quote:
Btw, if I was giving someone food or hygiene supplies from my car, I'd also take pre-emptive steps to protect myself by suggesting the person sat "over there" while I got them something.
I perfectly understand your reasoning for this, and I do not think it is a bad thing. It just stuck out at me because this thread devolved into an "appearance of rudeness" type of thing for a minute, and I was thinking about how this would appear to others. What do ya'll think?
I think it would depend on how it was done.
Many homeless people have been beaten and/or robbed by other homeless people. I'd be very surprised if any of them would be offended by a lone woman taking steps to make sure she was safe.
But anyway, I'd do it subtly. If I met someone who I wanted to help, I'd likely do something like buy them a sandwich, and suggest they sit and eat it while I sorted some things out for them.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 9:14:27 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DreadPirateRandy
quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
the hand was dirty and he felt disgusted and wanted to know what to do so that in real life next time he meets someone with dirt on them what to do.
How is shaking someone's "dirty, disgusting" hand any different than walking in a mud puddle barefoot or with sandals (whether purposefully or not)? Either way, you're going to get dirty, but the likelihood of getting sick in both cases is little to none.
Unless you immediately begin sucking your thumb or toes, which again, isn't the likely case.
I just don't find it appropriate, regardless of the situation, to view another being as dirty or disgusting.
Have you ever thought what it would be like shaking Jesus' hand? He touched the sick, the demon-possessed, the crippled, and all of which society has come to view as dirty or disgusting.
We are called to be separate from this thinking. If Jesus did it, then why is shaking someone's hand, or simply touching them, too good for us?
Since you asked, I will tell you my opinion. :) Walking in a mud puddle could be cleaner or dirtier than another type of puddle as it might be rainwater or urine, since we dont know what that puddle is made of.
If you read closely, he was not saying that the person himself was dirty (as if it was a personal dig) but he was describing a part of the person's body that was literally dirty. A person can have a clean heart and just get off from a construction job where he will be dirty on the outside but clean on the inside. The OP was not referring to the homeless person's personal human self or soul as dirty, just describing the part that probly needed some soap and water.
I also see past the words the OP said and I feel that he is looking for a solution, not to insult the guy, and he had to describe the man with the dirt in order to set up the situation so you could see what his dilemma is.
in other words, you are feeling such compassion for the homeless person and forgetting that sometimes they do carry an odor or dirt becasue they do not have access to soap and water.
One day, you might come across someone, perhaps a homeless person, who has not had a bath in many days, and they will naturally have a smell due to a wide variety of reasons - because they are homeless. We need to know what to do, coz some people are squeamish about odors and dirt. its not meant to be mean or un-christianlike, but some people are more sensitive than others. It just how God made some of us - more squeamish at some things.
For example, I cannnot stand the sight of blood, stitches, and other such medical things, I cannot be a nurse. Would you accuse me of being heartless because I cannot stand the sight of blood? i dont think you would call me heartless, but its the same thing. I do heartily applaud the nurses that have to take care of sick people including everything they need to do in washing and wiping the sick patients, and they do it with such professionalism, the patient is not shamed because they have to submit to such vulnerability.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 9:44:46 PM
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manda59
Posts: 6018
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
One day, you might come across someone, perhaps a homeless person, who has not had a bath in many days, and they will naturally have a smell due to a wide variety of reasons - because they are homeless. We need to know what to do, coz some people are squeamish about odors and dirt. its not meant to be mean or un-christianlike, but some people are more sensitive than others.
You need to know what to do? Treat the person as you would treat Christ. Treat the person as you would wish to be treated yourself.
quote:
Would you accuse me of being heartless because I cannot stand the sight of blood?
That would depend on whether you chose to allow it to prevent you helping someone in need.
Some people may be more sensitive than others, but, if we allow Him to, God can and will overcome our sensitivities so that we can serve Him and do His will.
Believe me, I have a very sensitive nose. Yet when I've been confronted with smelly people (and believe me, there have really been some), I've felt my stomach go and sent a quick prayer up to God asking for strength and grace to deal with the situation. And He has answered every time.
Once I offered to wash the clothes of an alcoholic schizophrenic guy I'd befriended. As he handed me his bag, he said to me "oh by the way I <slang word for urinated> myself in those", in a matter of fact kind of way. I was horrified, but was determined not to react negatively, and just said "oh ok". I prayed for help, donned rubber gloves, and could not smell a thing. I gave the clothes a good wash, aired the bag, lined it with plastic, and put the nice clean clothes back in it, and returned it all to him.
God gives us what we need to serve Him, if we just ask and believe.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 10:42:40 PM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Considering that I've had my hand and arm up inside a cow pulling out a calf that was stuck, what's the big deal about someone's hand being dirty?
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 11:25:14 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KuKu
If you avoided the situation completely, no, your lack of dealing with blood is not a problem. But to hand him a band-aid, and then refuse to acknowledge his thanks, would be as incorrect as the OP, considering this is what actually happened...
i supposed i would try to cover any natural reaction to dirt as best i could and try not to make the person with dirt feel bad. though, they CAN often sense if you are repulsed. then again sometimes they are mentally ill and cant tell either way. Maybe someone could offer them a towel and soap and try to clean them up. THAT might be the best solution, then they can go into the world and feel a little better .. everyone feels better when they've had a bath and clean clothes.. give them some dignity, not look down at those who are naturally squeamish.
I have a good test for you - lets say you are a missinary in another country - you visit a tribe that has unusual food customs. It would be rude for you to not eat a "disgusting" piece of raw strange meat. So do you eat it, or not? Remember, it could be the most odd part of the animal and you must eat it - raw - or offend the head of the tribe. Now are you able to easily do it? remember, the meat is disgusting when you think about what part of the animal it came from and that its raw.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/15/2008 11:29:54 PM
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IMA_CHRISTIAN
Posts: 1662
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quote:
ORIGINAL: manda59
[Would you accuse me of being heartless because I cannot stand the sight of blood?
That would depend on whether you chose to allow it to prevent you helping someone in need.
Some people may be more sensitive than others, but, if we allow Him to, God can and will overcome our sensitivities so that we can serve Him and do His will.
I did - with my daughter who needed stitches on her head when she was a baby. when I saw the nurse stitching the top of her head, I heard buzzing in my ears just like you feel when you are about to faint. i have also fainted at the smell of bandaids. so like i said, I'd be a bad nurse!
The last thing you said that i copied and pasted, was excellent and i will try to remember that if im in a situation.
if people can get super human strength to move a car off someone in an accident, it is likely that God would give us grace to handle squeamish situations too. thats how nurses and medics can deal with situations that would otherwise be too traumatic. They just get in there and do it because the person needs help.. they are not even aware of such mundane things as blood and smells, and other things happening to assorted body parts that are injured.
_____________________________
I'm just one of those Calvinistic robots for the Lord :)
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/16/2008 12:30:46 AM
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magdaleine
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What a great thread!
quote:
Is it wrong to give a dirty homeless person some money out of charity and then refuse to shake their hand when they offer to thank you?
The street person will understand why you didn't shake their hand, but I think it takes away from their inherent dignity to NOT shake it. If you're concerned, don't use that hand for anything till you can wash it. These people need love more than money.
quote:
The lesson, in this case, had to be strong and unapproving of what she had just done in the parking lot, open for all to see and hear, when there was a restroom inside the building and a restroom one block up the street. To be honest, I would have done the same.
Most homeless people have learned they're not welcome to use the washrooms in businesses.
quote:
I always try to remember that many homeless people have psychiatric issues and can be very desperate. The secret is to try and help without leaving yourself vulnerable. Well not too vulnerable anyway. I have taken a few chances that I would totally advise others against taking! It always worked out all right, but when I looked back afterwards, it was very very risky. But I did pray at the time that the Lord would protect me and sharpen my senses/discernment.
Yeah, my own psychiatrist warned me about this and about not making eye contact as I walk on our most desperate streets. If you make eye contact with someone who is in a psychotic episode, you could become part of that world he is in and be hurt.
quote:
If I was going somewhere like that, I'd dress down. I'd probably be wearing trousers (pants) or jeans, plain ordinary clothes, preferably dark coloured. In other words, I'd be making sure I didn't look like I had money.
This is what my pastor advised me when I spoke to him about walking in our church neighbourhood (the worst in the city). I do talk to people I meet, but try to avoid those gathered outside the bars (they can't smoke inside).
quote:
The particular man who stands out most in my memory there was very tall -- taller than my 6'2" husband. He was horribly disheveled -- more than the usual -- filthy, and his eyes were kind of wild-looking. He came after me, demanding money -- talking way too loudly. He got way into my personal space behind me before I could get into the car. As I slammed the door, I nearly slammed it on him. As I drove away, I seriously did not know if I would be driving over his toes. It was way too tense.
Sounds like you did the right thing to me!
quote:
Once I offered to wash the clothes of an alcoholic schizophrenic guy I'd befriended. As he handed me his bag, he said to me "oh by the way I <slang word for urinated> myself in those", in a matter of fact kind of way. I was horrified, but was determined not to react negatively, and just said "oh ok". I prayed for help, donned rubber gloves, and could not smell a thing. I gave the clothes a good wash, aired the bag, lined it with plastic, and put the nice clean clothes back in it, and returned it all to him
Manda, you're awesome.
I haven't yet gotten involved in any organized help for the homeless but I walk a lot and, when at my previous church, made a commitment to walk in the neighbourhood the church was reaching out to and connect with the homeless people I encountered. As I did that and had some awesome encounters with the homeless, I got braver. That neighbourhood wasn't a bad one, really, but with a lot of foot traffic, the homeless find it a good place to panhandle. Then I found myself walking around downtown a lot and made friends with some of the street people there. None of the men have tried to hug but the women have and I've hugged back. More than anything, these people want to feel loved and valued.
My current church is in the midst of the worst area of town and far from where I live so walking in that neighbourhood has been harder to do regularly but I'm trying. I did so after church yesterday and had some really cool encounters. One man came up to me and was asking questions about the Bible. I took him to the nearest restaurant, which happens to be in a sleaze-bag hotel with a booze can bar that churns out violent drunks but it was a Sunday afternoon. We had a good conversation and when it was time to leave, I asked if I could pray for the man. He held out both hands across the table and I took them and held them as we both prayed--me in English and him in Ojibway. I can just imagine what others passing by must have thought. But it was cool.
One of my sons is in great danger of becoming homeless. He's got mental health issues and is fiercely independent. He says he would rather live on the street than move back home. I guess I want to treat people on the street the same way I would like others to treat my son if he winds up in that situation.
_____________________________
Maggie
Ask me about my book. It's now available online!
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/16/2008 3:07:31 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6018
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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quote:
ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN
Maybe someone could offer them a towel and soap and try to clean them up. THAT might be the best solution, then they can go into the world and feel a little better .
If you know them and have a relationship with them, maybe, but IMO not a good idea if you don't know them (and I wouldn't do it even if I did) - because it would likely come across very patronising ("I'm clean, you're dirty, you're not acceptable as you are").
In my experience, once you start to help a homeless person and build a friendship with them, they often narurally start to want to clean themselves up, without having to be told that's what they need to do.
The way I see it is as a picture - 2 circles next to one another. One circle represents our world, our "normal" world, and the other circle represents the world of the homeless person. They are two totally separate worlds - and the only time they touch is when we make contact and show them that they're accepted, and belong with us, even with something as relatively simple as a handshake. The fewer times we reach out, the further apart the circles get, the more isolated the homeless person becomes.......
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/16/2008 3:15:39 AM
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manda59
Posts: 6018
Joined: 9/22/2005
From: Hampshire, UK
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((((((( Maggie )))))))
It must be so hard for you.
The first homeless guy I ever met (he walked into our church one Sunday) was schizophrenic (but wouldn't take his meds) wouldn't even live in a homeless hostel, said he felt clasutrophobic there. He preferred to live in shelters on the clifftop here - basically a park bench with three sides and a little roof, both winter and summer. He said he felt safer, and that the view was better, looking out to sea.
_____________________________
"Once again....drum roll please! Manda is right"
doinkdom, October 2008
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/16/2008 7:39:07 AM
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magdaleine
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That sounds exactly like something my son would do and say. Thanks for the hug.
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Maggie
Ask me about my book. It's now available online!
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RE: Not Shaking A Dirty Homeless Person's Hand? - 9/16/2008 11:20:53 AM
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Covaan_Meshuga
Posts: 3640
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From: a mother who let me live
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I am thankful that this thread was started. So much to learn, so much to pray about, some of which is heart-breaking. Bless all of you!
quote:
ORIGINAL: magdaleine
Yeah, my own psychiatrist warned me about this and about not making eye contact as I walk on our most desperate streets. If you make eye contact with someone who is in a psychotic episode, you could become part of that world he is in and be hurt.
I have been told the opposite -- head up, "own" the street, and look right at people. In this, how does one know what is right?
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Abiyah
"Ladies and gentlemen, there are things that you will only be able to learn by the weakest among us, and when you snuff them out, you are the one that loses." ~~Gianna Jesson, 1977 LA, CA, saline abortion survivor
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