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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 6:49:35 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
quote:
Depending on how that passage is punctuated, you can easily get diametrically opposed and legitimate interpretations.
More nit-picking on the basis of inconsequentials. I note that a few posters love this approach in dealing with Bible truth (at least as it relates to this issue). However the fact remains that:
1. We can ignore punctuation altogether by going to the Greek text and extracting the content without any reference to punctuation. And the content is exactly the same as the doctrine which has been upheld by Christians for over 2,000 years.
2. We do not rely on one of two verses which can be wrested, in order to establish Bible truth. We search from Genesis to Revelation and arrive at the same consistent truth.
3. We do not try to circumvent Bible doctrine with sophistry, casuistry, and subtle dodging of the plain truths which cannot be altered. The Bible was not written for scholars but for "whosover will".
4. We do not ignore the manner in which Christians have obeyed the truth about the roles of men and women over two millenia to come up with new "winds of doctrine".
5. We do not swallow feminist philosophy hook, line and sinker, to reinterpret Scripture.
Excellent post Ezra! Amen!
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/9/2008 7:19:32 PM
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CherishedbyGod
Posts: 2907
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quote:
ORIGINAL: notmycity
And to be fair, many, many MEN that have no business being an overseer or a deacon (according to Scripture) and do so for the same reasons to be sure.
Been around that church leadership, also 
_____________________________
~For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ~
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:12:28 AM
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Beck34
Posts: 200
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Wow! you guys are so clever, and you seem to know so much. How can someone simple like me wrap their head around this stuff. I don't know anything about translations or the translation of words as it relates to the original text of the Bible. English, anyone? All I know is that their are alot of scriptures that you guys are using for both sides of this arguement. Aren't some of you worried that you have taken scripture out of it's context as it relates to the Bible as a whole?
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/12/2008 9:27:55 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1928
Joined: 6/13/2005
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quote:
Aren't some of you worried that you have taken scripture out of it's context as it relates to the Bible as a whole?
I cannot speak for anyone else here but I am not worried. To me it's pretty plain. God is not trying to hide his truth from us.
1 Tim. 2 -
11 Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.
1Ti 3:2 -
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:12 -
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
Tit 1:6 -
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
quote:
I don't know anything about translations or the translation of words as it relates to the original text of the Bible. English, anyone?
You don't need to either. Remember it was the "educated" folks in Jesus day who twisted God's word to make it mean what ever they wanted it to mean. Jesus came and went "right back to the word" and explained it without all the fan fair. When you look at the "pure word" you find it's not hard to understand if you have the Holy Spirit as your guide.
A key passage for me is Proverbs 1:7. It's the foundation.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
< Message edited by P31W -- 5/12/2008 9:54:11 AM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 12:36:05 PM
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Beck34
Posts: 200
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Thank you so much! Put in that light, it is not hard to see what the clear answer is. I know that to gain knowledge is important, but I think you put it best by using the Word of God and not trying to add to my confusion. I am learning, but it is a slow process that God is helping me through.
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 1:55:35 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1614
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
You don't need to either. Remember it was the "educated" folks in Jesus day who twisted God's word to make it mean what ever they wanted it to mean.Jesus came and went "right back to the word" and explained it without all the fan fair. When you look at the "pure word" you find it's not hard to understand if you have the Holy Spirit as your guide.
Jesus never condemned anyone or questioned their motives simply because they were "educated"; he condemned those whose hearts were hard regardless of their educational status. The Apostle Paul was among the most educated of his time and yet God trusted him to convey the bulk of the NT messages to us. Luke was very well educated (a doctor) and God used him to convey another very significant portion of the NT to us. Judging by the Greek used in the book of Hebrews, the author of that book was extremely well educated. Being well educated and having the Holy Spirit as your Guide is not mutually exclusive!
The vast majority of those involved in the translation of our English bibles acknowledge the difficulty of interpreting these passages, and these translators hold to interpretations of these passages representing almost every major viewpoint. I find it amazing that people continue to deride the opinions of these men and women simply because they are educated, often inferring that these men are not listening to the guiding of the Holy Spirit, yet at the same time using and TRUSTING the translations of the bible that these men were involved in making. It makes absolutely no sense!
quote:
Thank you so much! Put in that light, it is not hard to see what the clear answer is. I know that to gain knowledge is important, but I think you put it best by using the Word of God and not trying to add to my confusion. I am learning, but it is a slow process that God is helping me through.
Not every Christian needs to learn Greek and Hebrew and be a scholar of ancient history, but it is important to realize that God has gifted some in the body to do just that. If that is not what God is calling you to do than that is ok, but be willing to trust those in the body who God did give that gift and desire. Each of us in the body of Christ has been given differing gifts; don't allow others to encourage you to reject the gifts of other Godly men and women simply because they are not the ones God gave them.
I would again encourage you to look at the book "Women in Ministry: Four views". In that book Robert D. Culver presents a very "Traditional" view of women in ministry (similar to that voiced by others on this forum), but he does so with with a gracious attitude toward those who disagree with him and a full acknowledgment of the textual difficulties of his own viewpoint. Please note, it is not the "Traditional" point of view presented on this forum that disturbs me, as I tend to lean that direction myself, but the continual derision of those who disagree with the "Traditional" viewpoint by those holding that view on this forum (often even to the point of questioning the sincerity of the faith of those who disagree)
Sidenote: Take a look through this thread and notice how many times those who tell you that you should just read "pure word" and ignore the opinion of scholars, appeal to these same scholars when the "pure word" doesn't say what they want it to i..e. when Paul refers to a woman as a deacon they will take great lengths to explain why that shouldn't be treated as an official office, when Paul refers to Junias as an apostle, some try to make the argument that 'She' was really a 'He' to resolve that difficulty, they try and explain why it is insignificant that Prisca's name is always mentioned before Aquila's despite the uniqueness of this in the 1st century, etc..., etc..., etc... There really is merit to some of these arguments and they should be considered; however, I would be very cautious of considering the opinion of anyone who is unwilling to acknowledge these and other textual difficulties. When someone weighs all of the evidence and presents what they believe is the best answer, consider it; however, when someone ignores the difficulties inherent in there own view and tells you what you MUST believe, run the other way as fast as you can.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 4:48:27 PM
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P31W
Posts: 1928
Joined: 6/13/2005
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benelchi,
I do have my RE degree and I also have the gift of teaching. I always point people back to the pure word of
God and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. I don't "need" to rely on others to tell me what God wants me to know.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 5:36:41 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 495
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
quote:
Aren't some of you worried that you have taken scripture out of it's context as it relates to the Bible as a whole?
I cannot speak for anyone else here but I am not worried. To me it's pretty plain. God is not trying to hide his truth from us.
1 Tim. 2 -
11 Women should listen and learn quietly and submissively. 12 I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly. 13 For God made Adam first, and afterward he made Eve. 14 And it was the woman, not Adam, who was deceived by Satan, and sin was the result. 15 But women will be saved through childbearing and by continuing to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty.
1Ti 3:2 -
Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
1Ti 3:12 -
A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well.
Tit 1:6 -
An elder must be blameless, the husband of but one wife, a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient.
quote:
I don't know anything about translations or the translation of words as it relates to the original text of the Bible. English, anyone?
You don't need to either. Remember it was the "educated" folks in Jesus day who twisted God's word to make it mean what ever they wanted it to mean. Jesus came and went "right back to the word" and explained it without all the fan fair. When you look at the "pure word" you find it's not hard to understand if you have the Holy Spirit as your guide.
A key passage for me is Proverbs 1:7. It's the foundation.
The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge,
I second that. Amen!
The Word of God is perfect and without error.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/14/2008 8:19:48 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1614
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: P31W
benelchi,
I do have my RE degree and I also have the gift of teaching. I always point people back to the pure word of
God and allow the Holy Spirit to teach them. I don't "need" to rely on others to tell me what God wants me to know.
Maybe you should encourage them to ONLY read the bible for themselves and rely on the Holy Spirit to teach them from ONLY the "pure word of God"; they should be relying on you or their pastors to teach them anything, correct? We wouldn't want them to be confused by your opinion or the opinion of their pastor, Right? Just one question: Why would God give anyone the gift of teaching if no one is to place any trust in anything anyone else says? Or do you just believe that you get to decide whose opinion matters, and whose should be ignored?
While I believe that the opinion of every man or woman needs to be measured by the standard of God's word, I believe it is not biblical to suggest that we ignore the gift that God has given some in the body to study and teach God's word, nor do I believe that it is biblical to suggest that we should not rely on our brothers and sisters in Christ; that kind of individualism may be popular in American culture, but it is not reflected in the bible. In the bible we are called the body of Christ, and the bible emphasizes or dependence on one another rather than diminishes it.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:19:29 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1979
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
Wow! you guys are so clever, and you seem to know so much.
It's always good to begin with a compliment, especially if it has some irony in it.
quote:
How can someone simple like me wrap their head around this stuff. Simple. Follow the KISS principle. Take the Bible literally when it is not speaking in metaphors.
quote:
I don't know anything about translations or the translation of words as it relates to the original text of the Bible. English, anyone?
You don't have to. Study the KJV. It's been around for a very long time.
quote:
All I know is that their are alot of scriptures that you guys are using for both sides of this arguement.
Not quite accurate. All the Scriptures support the Bible truth that God has given men and women distinct roles in the home and in the church. And it goes back to Adam and Eve.
quote:
Aren't some of you worried that you have taken scripture out of it's context as it relates to the Bible as a whole?
Not at all. The context is really the nature of God Himself, which is reflected in the Bible as a whole. "Let all things be done decently, and in order" (1 Cor. 14:40).
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:17:20 AM
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Beck34
Posts: 200
Joined: 3/24/2008
Status: offline
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As I read some of this, I realize that I have not been very nice. hose of you that have all of is knowledge should use it to better understand the word. God has helped meto see my erro of judging all of you, and I ask that you wil forgive me as He has forgiven me. I am trying to use all of these tools that you have given me to study the matter deeper.
_____________________________
What do you expect, It's Beck!
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:09:43 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
Joined: 11/16/2007
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Maybe I'm dense, but I thought you were actually quite gracious in your posts. No need to apologize as far as I'm concerned.
Have fun studying. I know it's a bit intimidating at first, but the more historical context you can wrap around your knowledge of any particular passage in the bible, the more it really comes alive. You don't need to know that much about versions - use all of them! Compare where versions differ and then use one of a number of lexicons, commentaries, etc to figure out why the differ. You can do it. It sounds harder than it is. In reality, it's fairly easy and you don't even need to know greek in order to get some benefit from it. For a quick comparison, I like to use Young's Literal translation against my own favorite version (KJV or otherwise). Sometimes that comparison can tell you a lot. Every translation has its strengths and weaknesses, so don't bother choosing any one particular one - use all of them. Biblegateway.com is a great resource for being able to do that very quickly & easily. (And it's FREE! After you've paid for internet access, that is.)
I know you don't have much of a budget for this, but if you're doing pastoral level work possibly your church might sign up for it - Logos software. It's an amazingly deep collection of all sorts of study resources geared for the serious student or teaching pastor. It starts at $600 bucks or so for the student version. I bought it for my wife at seminary, and honestly I have used it as much as she has. It's opened up avenues for study that as a lay person I had never even dreamed of. (The commmentaries are very dated, but the other tools are fab.)
For a cheaper alternative, I think there's even a link to a simple english/greek lexicon here on CrossWalk.
I do believe given that the bible was written some 2,000 years ago in a different culture and time, if you really want to extract the full color of a text you really do need to put your back into it and not be afraid of some serious digging. The good news is that anyone really can do it. It takes some motivation, but we all have the skills if we choose to develop them & spend the time.
Enjoy!
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:25:18 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1253
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
I do believe given that the bible was written some 2,000 years ago in a different culture and time, if you really want to extract the full color of a text you really do need to put your back into it and not be afraid of some serious digging....
The Spirit through Paul provides the reasons for differing roles between men and women pertaining to teaching and authority within the church:
1 Tim 2:11-14
11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection.
12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
13 FOR ADAM WAS FIRST FORMED, THEN EVE.
14 AND ADAM WAS NOT DECEIVED, BUT THE WOMAN BEING DECEIVED WAS IN THE TRANSGRESSION.
Those of us who believe in creation know that verses 13-14 are as true TODAY as when first penned.
Please explain how the above Scripture can be twisted to speak of “culture”?
Let’s look at the Genesis account:
Gen 3:9
9 And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
Who did God call? (Adam, not Eve)
Gen 3:17
17 And unto Adam he said, BECAUSE THOU HAST HEARKENED UNTO THE VOICE OF THY WIFE, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life...
What was the first sin of Adam? (Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife...)
It has nothing to do with “a different culture and time”. Just read the Scripture and you will see that.
Thank you.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:32:04 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 1433
Joined: 11/16/2007
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Notmycity-
That post was intended to address the need for some additional resources to provide the background color we so often miss when studying a text. I think cultural issues do impact meaning, but only insofar as we need the cultural information to understand what the original writer intended that the original reader understand by what he was writing. I remain committed to a grammatico-historical method of biblical interpretation. Just so you understand where I'm coming from on this, I didn't mean to imply that a "that was then, this is now" method of interpretation was appropriate as a blanket statement. Sorry for the confusion there.
Now all that said, I still disagree with you ;).
Regards,
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:43:52 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1253
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Notmycity-
That post was intended to address the need for some additional resources to provide the background color we so often miss when studying a text. I think cultural issues do impact meaning, but only insofar as we need the cultural information to understand what the original writer intended that the original reader understand by what he was writing. I remain committed to a grammatico-historical method of biblical interpretation. Just so you understand where I'm coming from on this, I didn't mean to imply that a "that was then, this is now" method of interpretation was appropriate as a blanket statement. Sorry for the confusion there.
Now all that said, I still disagree with you ;).
Regards,
BT
With all due respect:
2 Tim 3:16-17
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 THAT THE MAN OF GOD MAY BE PERFECT, THROUGHLY FURNISHED unto all good works.
Verse 17 tells me that Scripture is ALL that is needed for the man of God.
Also, I’m not The One you disagree with.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 2:15:07 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 1614
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
Also, I’m not The One you disagree with.
Or to put it another way "It's not my opinion but the word of God."; that is a quote from Jim Jones.
I personally don't think that is the company I would like to keep.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 2:26:54 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Also, I’m not The One you disagree with.
Or to put it another way "It's not my opinion but the word of God."; that is a quote from Jim Jones.
I personally don't think that is the company I would like to keep.
Amen!!! I've often thought the same thing. I don't mind arrogance too much when it's based on something solid. But when it's like the substance of a puffed-up bullfrog, then it's very laughable and worthy of pity.
Standby by for a comment on being reviled for speaking "the word of God."
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 5:35:16 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 495
Joined: 4/16/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
Notmycity-
That post was intended to address the need for some additional resources to provide the background color we so often miss when studying a text. I think cultural issues do impact meaning, but only insofar as we need the cultural information to understand what the original writer intended that the original reader understand by what he was writing. I remain committed to a grammatico-historical method of biblical interpretation. Just so you understand where I'm coming from on this, I didn't mean to imply that a "that was then, this is now" method of interpretation was appropriate as a blanket statement. Sorry for the confusion there.
Now all that said, I still disagree with you ;).
Regards,
BT
It does not seem you adhere to a grammatico-historical method of interpreting scripture. The grammatico-historical method basically says "Scripture interprets Scripture" and believes in Biblical inerrancy. You use the historical-critical method which basically says, "that was then, this is now."
There are several scriptures which prove that man/women's roles are different and that a woman is to not be a pastor of a church. I have already given you sources.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 6:27:04 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1253
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
Also, I’m not The One you disagree with.
Or to put it another way "It's not my opinion but the word of God."; that is a quote from Jim Jones.
I personally don't think that is the company I would like to keep.
Amen!!! I've often thought the same thing. I don't mind arrogance too much when it's based on something solid. But when it's like the substance of a puffed-up bullfrog, then it's very laughable and worthy of pity.
Standby by for a comment on being reviled for speaking "the word of God."
I won’t return your reviling....
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 11:31:36 PM
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gmc4Jesus
Posts: 154
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Torrance, California
Status: offline
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Interesting post. While I will confess that I have not read every comment, I would like to make some observations for consideration.
Personally, I prefer male leadership. I think that Scripture only speaks of male elders in the church.
At the same time, I notice how God used women in the Old Testament and New Testament in positions of leadership, especially when there wasn't a man for the job. Consider Deborah, a judge in the Old Testament, for one brief example. (I'm not inserting Scripture references here because this has probably been discussed on one of the pages I haven't read yet.)
In the New Testament, Aquilla and Priscilla appear to be working in partnership in teaching (see the book of Acts). Lydia, who had a church meeting in her home, must have had some degree of leadership (also in Acts).
Scriptures that are sometimes cited that forbid women from teaching should be read in the context of their immediate texts for clarification. Much is explained in the surrounding passages to clarify the nature of those comments. I have known of, and still sometimes listen to women proclaiming the Gospel in powerful and effective ways. God has and can use women as teachers, even of male adults. That does not give them "authority" other than that of a teacher.
I believe that Scripture supports and prefers male leadership in every church. I also recognize that if a man doesn't step up to the job, a woman will.
What is most important is that Jesus be glorified. He is the only way to salvation, and the best role model for our lives.
_____________________________
Let's talk about Jesus, His life and teachings at the www.gettingtoknowjesus.org Gospel Study Forum.
Home of "Getting To Know Jesus", a complete Bible study on the life and teachings of Jesus.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 8:44:19 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4680
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gmc4Jesus
Scriptures that are sometimes cited that forbid women from teaching should be read in the context of their immediate texts for clarification. Much is explained in the surrounding passages to clarify the nature of those comments. I have known of, and still sometimes listen to women proclaiming the Gospel in powerful and effective ways. God has and can use women as teachers, even of male adults. That does not give them "authority" other than that of a teacher.
I agree. I've learned more from godly women than I ever did from the man I know who believes women have no souls but were only put on earth to serve and please men.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/16/2008 10:26:00 AM
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P31W
Posts: 1928
Joined: 6/13/2005
Status: offline
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benelchi,
I replied to a poster. You chose to attack that post with your false ideas. You honestly have no clue what I am talking about. That's ok. My post was not for you.
Until you responded to my post I had not read anything you or the others had to say.
You are so involved with trying to debate/agrue/whatever with notmycity and a few others that you fail to realize "someone else" may be willing to read and respond to a posters question from another point of view.
(you have no clue what I believe. my posting of scripture and telling a poster they did not need to have all this education inorder to know what God want's them to know should not have in any way offended you. The fact that it did only tells me that you may need to take a breath before you respond to people you don't know)
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