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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 1:52:58 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2913
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
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quote:
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Which is better:
A woman preaching the truth?
A man preaching half-truth or downright lies?
You make a dreadful mistake here. Both are equally wrong, and neither is better than the other. It is akin to asking which is more preferable - having your right arm and leg removed or having your left arm and leg removed. The difference is of degree, not kind.
There have been many people who have said things that were truthful (or quasi-truthful) while doing things in a manner that was not decent or in order concerning the church. When asking which is better, we should always defer to scripture. The life God calls us to is one of obedience to Him, not one of having to choose the leser of two evils. If you are confronted with such a choice then choose neither and re-evaluate how you arrived at that point. Somewhere along the line, a premise is out of sorts.
The problem with this evaluation is that many of the people with whom you disagree, also believe strongly that people should always defer to Scripture, and that God calls us to obedience to him. They believe that following the guidelines you have advocated would require them to be disobedient to God. No one is asking that you agree with them, but you should at least consider their argument and try and understand their perspective.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 3:07:13 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
I wonder why it is that we feel that if there is a disagreement like this that "obviously" those on the other side of the argument are not with sincere intentions seeking to study the WORD and follow obediently the commands of the Lord.
I haven't been here in a while, so things may be different now, but (for the most part) I believe most people who take part in this debate want what is right done.
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There are many things that believers around the world are in disagreement about. Do we assume that all of those who do not share our particular viewpoint are sinners and apostate? Or do we continue to seek the Lord where we are and trust that what Jesus said was true that "whoever seeks will find," and that "the Spirit of Truth will guide you into all truth?"
No, but there are things that are very clear and simple in scripture. This issue is one of them. The only reason it has become confusing to some is because they do not like what scripture has to say about the issue. My opinion why is that it seems to many to contradict the values and principles of fairness and equality we in the West have founded our lives and governments on. The issue at hand, for the most part, is what standard we accept when deciding issues of fairness and equality, and if those words have any meaning at all. Then, if they do, what do they mean? This should already be settled before we get to the current debate. If it was, then there would be little debate.
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I believe there is room for us to disagree on this issue of women and men and their roles in the church. It is not an issue of salvation. It is not an issue that was even addressed that frequently in the NT.
I do not begrudge anyone the right to disagree with me. And you are correct this is not a salvaic issue. It is, however, an issue of obedience, to which we all are called. Whether or not we think it was talked about frequently is also not the point - it is spoken of in moer than one place and in language that is quite clear. There should be no issue here.
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If you don't want to attend a church with a woman in leadership, don't. You are free to follow that interpretation.
This is not a matter of interpretation. The text is simple and quite clear. It is a matter of obedience plain and simple. Interpretation is not needed - it says what it says and context bears it out.
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If, however, you are diligently seeking the Lord and find you have a peace about attending a church with a woman in leadership, then go ahead.
How could a person "find peace" when joining corporate worship that involves a thing forbidden by God's word? How can the Spirit find peace when faced with disobedience?
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You will not loose your salvation by listening to a woman preacher. You will not gain your salvation by listening to a male preacher. You find salvation, if my interpretation of scripture is correct, by following Jesus and accepting his sacrifice of love for you.
Salvation is not the end of the line - it is not as if we have run a race and, when we have been saved, we are done. Salvation is the beginning of our journey, not the end. Living an obedient life is part of our sanctification, submitting to His will - especially when it is offensive to our flesh - is an important part of that. To simply say that since you will not loose your salvation the issue is not important is to reason from a very wrong premise. If salvation were all that was important the New Testament would have closed with the gospels.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Men's/Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 3:15:10 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
quote:
quote:
Which is better:
A woman preaching the truth?
A man preaching half-truth or downright lies?
You make a dreadful mistake here. Both are equally wrong, and neither is better than the other. It is akin to asking which is more preferable - having your right arm and leg removed or having your left arm and leg removed. The difference is of degree, not kind.
There have been many people who have said things that were truthful (or quasi-truthful) while doing things in a manner that was not decent or in order concerning the church. When asking which is better, we should always defer to scripture. The life God calls us to is one of obedience to Him, not one of having to choose the leser of two evils. If you are confronted with such a choice then choose neither and re-evaluate how you arrived at that point. Somewhere along the line, a premise is out of sorts.
The problem with this evaluation is that many of the people with whom you disagree, also believe strongly that people should always defer to Scripture, and that God calls us to obedience to him. They believe that following the guidelines you have advocated would require them to be disobedient to God. No one is asking that you agree with them, but you should at least consider their argument and try and understand their perspective.
With all due respect, there is no problem. What people believe, and what God's word says, are too often two distinctly different things. As they are not asking me to agree with them, neither am I asking them to agree with me. What I am saying is that this issue is quite simple and clear until we run roughshod into our flesh and our ideas of right and wrong. It is then that the text (and contexts) become manipulated in order to obscure the plain meaning of the passages in question. It is then that often obscure extra-biblical sources are used to change the meaning of the passages. It is then that we begin to rely on our ideas - even though we are marred by sin and have to acknowledge this to become born again - to the point that we try to glean meanings that no longer come close to what is being said. I have done it, many times.
I have had to change many things in my life because I accepted God's standard over my own.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 4:45:01 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
......Do we assume that all of those who do not share our particular viewpoint are sinners and apostate?
It’s NOT a “particular viewpoint”. Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice...” aka God’s Word. Christ was the Word incarnate and His Word via Scripture is HIS will for those who truly believe. A true Christian doesn’t have “viewpoints” or “opinions”. A true believer does what my master did when confronted by the devil. He relies on Scripture. Jesus said, “It is written....” .
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lycea
...I believe there is room for us to disagree on this issue of women and men and their roles in the church. It is not an issue of salvation.
The only disagreement is with Scripture, resulting in the twisting of Scripture to deny the truth.
This is especially true of the Pauline Scriptures:
2 Pet 3:15-16
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 AS ALSO IN ALL HIS EPISTLES, SPEAKING IN THEM OF THESE THINGS; IN WHICH ARE SOME THINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD, WHICH THEY THAT ARE UNLEARNED AND UNSTABLE WREST, AS THEY DO ALSO THE OTHER SCRIPTURES, UNTO THEIR OWN DESTRUCTION.
This is literally a matter of life and death if one believes the above Scripture.
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ORIGINAL: Lycea
...If, however, you are diligently seeking the Lord and find you have a peace about attending a church with a woman in leadership, then go ahead. You will not loose your salvation by listening to a woman preacher. You will not gain your salvation by listening to a male preacher. You find salvation, if my interpretation of scripture is correct, by following Jesus and accepting his sacrifice of love for you.
While it is certainly true that “[you] will not gain your salvation by listening to a male preacher”, what is equally true is that “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry...” (Please see 1 Sam 15:23) Please also note what happened to Saul when REJECTED God’s Word.
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ORIGINAL: Lycea
You find salvation, if my interpretation of scripture is correct, by following Jesus and accepting his sacrifice of love for you.
2 Pet 1:20-21
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
Matt 12:31
31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
To reject God’s Word is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
“[No] prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation, ....but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”
Praise God for His Word!
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<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 9:12:46 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6962
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Salvation is not the end of the line - it is not as if we have run a race and, when we have been saved, we are done. Salvation is the beginning of our journey, not the end. Living an obedient life is part of our sanctification, submitting to His will - especially when it is offensive to our flesh - is an important part of that. To simply say that since you will not loose your salvation the issue is not important is to reason from a very wrong premise. If salvation were all that was important the New Testament would have closed with the gospels.
I agree 100%- that is why it's sometimes called New Life.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:14:05 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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I have asked this before, and not one tried to answer, but I feel like answering again. Why is it that the drive/desire for women to be pastors/reverends/ect only has come about since the dawn of the feminist movement? Why in the history of the church, has there NEVER been a large scale push for women to be in these positions of leadership. I am talking from post-apostolic times until the late 1800's. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestant, ect. In fact, the only evidence of women in leadership EVER in the history of the church prior to the feminist movement, was in the Donatist Schism in the 4th and 5th centuries (technically it lasted until the Muslim invasions of North Africa, but after Augustine intellectually destroyed them in the early 5th Century, they did not amount to much). And pointing to the Donatist herecy as part of your evidence is flawed at best.
So, again, where is the evidence that women ever held positions of authority in the entire history of the church? If the Apostolic church was so pro-women, as some people say, why then within less than just 50 years after the writings of Paul, did women leaders cease to exist?
Oh thats right, it was some big evil male conspiracy. Gee...that sounds just like the secular feminist arguments.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:37:38 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6962
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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Ellen G. White and Mary Baker Eddy both started their own churches.
I don't agree with their doctrine.
I think they were before the feminist movement.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 10:44:38 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
I have asked this before, and not one tried to answer, but I feel like answering again. Why is it that the drive/desire for women to be pastors/reverends/ect only has come about since the dawn of the feminist movement? Why in the history of the church, has there NEVER been a large scale push for women to be in these positions of leadership. I am talking from post-apostolic times until the late 1800's. Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Lutheran, Protestant, ect. In fact, the only evidence of women in leadership EVER in the history of the church prior to the feminist movement, was in the Donatist Schism in the 4th and 5th centuries (technically it lasted until the Muslim invasions of North Africa, but after Augustine intellectually destroyed them in the early 5th Century, they did not amount to much). And pointing to the Donatist herecy as part of your evidence is flawed at best.
So, again, where is the evidence that women ever held positions of authority in the entire history of the church? If the Apostolic church was so pro-women, as some people say, why then within less than just 50 years after the writings of Paul, did women leaders cease to exist?
Oh thats right, it was some big evil male conspiracy. Gee...that sounds just like the secular feminist arguments.
And the replies you are likely to get will be along the lines of "because they lived in a male dominated/patriarical society where women were not educated and/or treated like chattel." This, on its surface, seems to be a reasonable argument - until you refer back to scripture. At no time did Christ or the Apostles soften their doctrine to appease any group. If a thing or idea was in conflict with the (to be later known as) Christian ideals or things found in scripture it was denounced clearly and absolutely.
Now, we must ask ourselves why God - who made the universe and everything in it and has more knowledge and power than anything we could imagine - has no problem addressing the issues of church and society except this one issue. Why would God simply defer to a culture built upon fallen and sinful mankind's ideals when His entire plan is to redeem His fallen creation from it? The answer, if we really care to see it, is obvious. He didn't. He has a reason (or reasons) for things to be the way He has laid out. God, who is perfect, can not do anything just for the sake of doing it. It would be in contradiction to His nature, and He would cease to be God.
So we are left with a few choices. We can ignore this and defer back to our own ideas, which scripture clearly shows is not a good idea. We can take the words written as a mandate for male tyrants to run rampant and a license to supress women in every way, which would also be in contradiction to scripture. The only logical choice left is to cherrfully submit to God's word, trusting God is good and has our best interests at heart, and serve one another within the framework God has given us with a servant's heart knowing "the last shall be first, and the first shall be last."
We are so immersed in Western culture and philosophy that it is hard to lay it aside to see this. However, scripture also tells us that we can do all things through Christ.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:07:11 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/16/2005
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if GOD calls somebody for a certain thing, i don't see how you can justify usurping GOD. but if you do i call that the patterson-mohler syndrome.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:25:40 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1100
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
if GOD calls somebody for a certain thing, i don't see how you can justify usurping GOD. but if you do i call that the patterson-mohler syndrome.
Problem is, God will NEVER call someone to do something that is against His word. God will NEVER tell someone to sacrifice to Baal or Sheiva or whoever. If someone claims God did tell them to do that, we KNOW they are wrong, because what they "SAY" God told them does not match what scripture says. Likewise, when scripture in more than one place, makes it clear that women are not to be pastors/reverends over a congergation, when a woman says "God has led me to be a Pastor" we KNOW that it is not God that is telling them. This does not make them not a Christian persay, it just, at best, makes them a flawed Christian trying to do things their own way...Something that plauges many if not most believers in every denomination.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:37:13 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
if GOD calls somebody for a certain thing, i don't see how you can justify usurping GOD. but if you do i call that the patterson-mohler syndrome.
Problem is, God will NEVER call someone to do something that is against His word. God will NEVER tell someone to sacrifice to Baal or Sheiva or whoever. If someone claims God did tell them to do that, we KNOW they are wrong, because what they "SAY" God told them does not match what scripture says. Likewise, when scripture in more than one place, makes it clear that women are not to be pastors/reverends over a congergation, when a woman says "God has led me to be a Pastor" we KNOW that it is not God that is telling them. This does not make them not a Christian persay, it just, at best, makes them a flawed Christian trying to do things their own way...Something that plauges many if not most believers in every denomination.
100% correct. Why would God "call" someone to do something that He has already excluded them from? Would this not show that the God of scripture, who does not change and is perfect and complete, is not capable of staying true to His own word?
If you would say that God calls women to pastor, where would be either a scriptural example of a woman being called as a bishop/pastor/elder/deacon? Where would be the scriptural evidence of God changing the requirements for leadership in the local church?
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/28/2008 11:40:20 PM
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lmwal931
Posts: 93
Joined: 4/16/2005
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you have to interpret scripture. i believe paul is being facetious.
he also says to love your wife like christ loved the church. that is a tall order. when you get that done, you can start controling females. i follow JESUS. i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 12:05:33 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture.
There is no interpretation needed. The text says what it says and it is not contradicted by any other text. When the plain sense makes sense, seek no other sense.
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i believe paul is being facetious.
On what do you base this belief?
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he also says to love your wife like christ loved the church. that is a tall order.
It is a tall order, but not impossible. There is also nothing in this command that is in contradiction to the subject at hand.
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when you get that done, you can start controling females.
Who wants to control females? If you think that is what this is about, you have missed the point entirely.
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i follow JESUS.
And do you assert I, or anyone else, does not? Wouldn't following Jesus (who is God) also include obeying the framework given to us on church leadership? How can you follow Jesus, yet ignore clear scriptural commands?
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i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
What do you think it means to follow Christ, to be a disciple? The word "Christian" was originally meant as an insult meaning "little Christs." We are to be holy as He is holy. We are to obey just as Christ was obedient to the point of dying on the cross.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean in this last statement.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 12:54:08 PM
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notmycity
Posts: 1176
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture....
No. One must TWIST Scripture to try to negate gender-specific roles within Scripture.
_____________________________
<><Topher
"I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." Psalm 119:63
and..
"For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come." Heb 13:14 = "notmycity"
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 5/29/2008 1:09:03 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6962
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: East Bay Area
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
you have to interpret scripture.
I usually like to find out what others believe on something that I'm not sure of, such as the topic of this thread.
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i believe Paul is being facetious.
How did you come to that conclusion?
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i follow JESUS. i don't wont to imitate GOD. i will never get that far.
Who do you say Jesus is?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/1/2008 9:32:47 PM
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suzanned
Posts: 205
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
quote:
ORIGINAL: lmwal931
if GOD calls somebody for a certain thing, i don't see how you can justify usurping GOD. but if you do i call that the patterson-mohler syndrome.
Problem is, God will NEVER call someone to do something that is against His word. God will NEVER tell someone to sacrifice to Baal or Sheiva or whoever. If someone claims God did tell them to do that, we KNOW they are wrong, because what they "SAY" God told them does not match what scripture says. Likewise, when scripture in more than one place, makes it clear that women are not to be pastors/reverends over a congergation, when a woman says "God has led me to be a Pastor" we KNOW that it is not God that is telling them. This does not make them not a Christian persay, it just, at best, makes them a flawed Christian trying to do things their own way...Something that plauges many if not most believers in every denomination.
So interesting how God calls in accordance to their heart condition and giftedness that is given by Him to do His will. If you read Scripture, God continually calls out those who are unlikely to do the greatest. If Scripture was so clear on these issues there would not be such debates among theologians and scholars. There are those with high regard for Scripture that would not agree that the Bible "clearly" states that women should not hold position of pastor, and in fact state that Scripture leans in the opposite direction. Women have and will continue to serve God as He calls them in all areas of ministry. The idea of pastor is to build up others to lead. The entire community of Christ is to made leaders of all Christians to love serve commit to caring for each other in Christ. Church in the NT times is not the same church that we witness today.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 12:27:00 AM
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Bro_Shane
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
So interesting how God calls in accordance to their heart condition and giftedness that is given by Him to do His will. If you read Scripture, God continually calls out those who are unlikely to do the greatest. If Scripture was so clear on these issues there would not be such debates among theologians and scholars. There are those with high regard for Scripture that would not agree that the Bible "clearly" states that women should not hold position of pastor, and in fact state that Scripture leans in the opposite direction. Women have and will continue to serve God as He calls them in all areas of ministry. The idea of pastor is to build up others to lead. The entire community of Christ is to made leaders of all Christians to love serve commit to caring for each other in Christ. Church in the NT times is not the same church that we witness today.
There is no evidence, textural or otherwise, that women have been, are, or ever will be gifted or called to pastor a church. Merely making the statement that people have high regard fro scripture and feel that He will do so does not make it so.
These statements mean nothing, prove nothing, and come to nothing. The church faces the same problems, fights the same temptations, and seeks the same thing it always has. The idea of change and how the church must change to adapt to the times, or that because things seem different other things must change does not make sense.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 8:51:42 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2913
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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quote:
There is no evidence, textural or otherwise, that women have been, are, or ever will be gifted or called to pastor a church. Merely making the statement that people have high regard fro scripture and feel that He will do so does not make it so.
Ignoring the "evidence, textual or otherwise, that women have been, are, or ever will be gifted or called to" leadership of any kind (including pastor) does not change the fact that those textual evidences do exist, and provide reason enough to give a more serious thought to exactly what roles women do have in the Church. To begin with, we have the many times Paul thanks women who served along side him in ministry, some he called deacons and one he even called an apostle. Those who hold to a "Traditional" viewpoint on women in ministry, if they are honest, have to come up with with some very creative interpretations to get around the textual problems these passages present. Others, unfortunately, simply ignore the verses that contradict there point of view.
quote:
These statements mean nothing, prove nothing, and come to nothing. The church faces the same problems, fights the same temptations, and seeks the same thing it always has. The idea of change and how the church must change to adapt to the times, or that because things seem different other things must change does not make sense.
Simply telling people that only your view is biblical "means nothing, proves nothing, and comes to nothing".
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 1:08:08 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: benelchi
Ignoring the "evidence, textual or otherwise, that women have been, are, or ever will be gifted or called to" leadership of any kind (including pastor) does not change the fact that those textual evidences do exist, and provide reason enough to give a more serious thought to exactly what roles women do have in the Church.
No, they do not exist. They have been made to look as is more is there than is actually there. This is not based on the text, but on commentary of the text sprinkled with a liberal dose of "could" "may" "suggests" and other terms that do not give a definite answer. Add the phrase "some respected scholars" in front of it and you complete the illusion of weight and merit. The attempt is not to make people give "serious thought," but to change the meaning of what is said.
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To begin with, we have the many times Paul thanks women who served along side him in ministry, some he called deacons and one he even called an apostle. Those who hold to a "Traditional" viewpoint on women in ministry, if they are honest, have to come up with with some very creative interpretations to get around the textual problems these passages present. Others, unfortunately, simply ignore the verses that contradict there point of view.
If there is any lack of honesty, it comes from those who refuse to admit that words like "minisrty" and "apostle" have more than one use and do not always mean those who were in leadership positions of the church. Ministry also means service, and every member should be a part of the total ministry of the church. It is this blurring of terms that helps to set up the false case for abused texts. Honesty would show this is true, and would force many to give up the inventions of many "respected scholars."
There are no verses, when looked at in context, that contradicts this view.
quote:
Simply telling people that only your view is biblical "means nothing, proves nothing, and comes to nothing".
Only those who have a hard time seeing what is clearly there, or those who do not like what is clearly there and wish it to change because it doesn't fit their idea of equality, fairness, or what is right.
It says what it says and, when looked at in context without any help from any of us, it is quite clear in what it says. Referring to so-called authorities and pointing out the possible usgaes of certain words (while ignoring the possible usages of others, when convienient) will not change it.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/2/2008 2:33:33 PM
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benelchi
Posts: 2913
Joined: 9/14/2007
From: California
Status: online
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The reality is that even those scholars that hold to a "Traditional" perspective on women in ministry acknowledge the textual difficulties that some of these passages present to their point of view. While I can respect the scholarship of those who do hold to a "Traditional" viewpoint, I do so because they are fair and honest with the evidence, and they acknowledge the reality that other views are possible despite their disagreement with those views. If scholars who hold strongly to the viewpoint you have presented recognize the difficulty that some of the texts present to the views they hold, and they can respectfully disagree with scholarship that doesn't represent their point of view without calling into question the faith or integrity of those with whom they disagree, WHY CAN'T YOU DO THE SAME?
To simply ignore the textual issues that contradict your point of view is not honest. While I can respect those who interpret these passages as you do, I don't respect those who don't acknowledge that this is an interpretive choice and their opinion. We all make interpretive choices when we come to the biblical text; however, it is important that everyone realize that their interpretation is NOT inspired like God's word is. When you present an interpretation that narrows the possibilities of what the text could possibly say, you have presented your opinion and not the Word of God, and it is important to recognize the difference.
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ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
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ORIGINAL: benelchi
Ignoring the "evidence, textual or otherwise, that women have been, are, or ever will be gifted or called to" leadership of any kind (including pastor) does not change the fact that those textual evidences do exist, and provide reason enough to give a more serious thought to exactly what roles women do have in the Church.
No, they do not exist. They have been made to look as is more is there than is actually there. This is not based on the text, but on commentary of the text sprinkled with a liberal dose of "could" "may" "suggests" and other terms that do n | | |
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