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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/12/2008 7:21:46 PM
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suzanned
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
That is true. I never really thought of it that way, but you are correct in that point. The new testament is full of examples of disagreements that were easily summed up with that very thing. Look at the letters that Paul writes to the early church. There were many disagreements on various things, but it clearly states that what is right for one man may not be right for another. Our foundation should be in Christ. He will lead us in the way that is right for us as an individual, not as a group.
There are many areas of the Bible that are debated as far as meaning. That is for sure. But you are correct that God does impart His Spirit and with that a discernment to the Scriptures. We begin to see as God sees. We are unique unto Him. We will always have disagreements while we are in our humaness. It is only through Christ that we can be in unity despite those differences. It is having a heart for Him that leads us on. You are definately on the right track.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/13/2008 10:19:28 AM
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Asotos
Posts: 33
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
First, you are making an argument from silence as it refers to the wives of bishops. Whether a bishop's wife is more imortant than a deacon's wife is arguable, and also not the point. The singlular usage with bishop vs. the plural use of deacon could mean nothing more than each local congregation should have one bishop and several deacons. Also, Paul was writing to Timothy, a singluar person and a bishop/overseer - when discussing deacons he is speaking of a group. There is no problem here.
The only way verse 11 clarifies anything is if one accepts your logic in the prior verses which, as I have pointed out, do not bear you out.
Maybe for you is a point for silence but is a point nonetheless. Who said that in the early church where only one Bishop/Elder per church ? Any passage in the scripture that clarifies that explicity? The Scripture doesn't clarify between the Bishop and the Elder to claim was one bishop per congregation and several deacons, thats pure speculation.For example Acts 19:17 speaks for many elders. Nonetheless Paul uses here the singular "ἐπίσκοπον". But for the deacon uses "deacons" in plural forms and in them includes women. It may suit you that no women are to be made deacons but there without self interpretation and direct translation is obvious there are women deacons.
quote:
The only problem here is that Paul is referring to her as a servant which, by definition, gives service. Paul referred to what she was, not what she did. Now, since there is not anyplace else in scripture used to describe women as holding the office of deacon (and the language in I Timothy clearly excludes them), there is no reason to think she held an office.
Nope he refers to her as Deacon of the church, the first deacons where initially placed as servants in the acts however later their position developed spiritually as well. As far the language of Timothy you know I disagree with you there.
quote:
This could not be more wrong. The books of the New Testament were known to be scripture before the CoC, Peter even refers to Paul's writing as scripture. And, not everyone accepted the idea of women deacons, especially those that held office or the practice would have been common, which it was not.
Now you are doing nothing more than trying to redefine suggestions and the opinions of a few to be hard evidence and fact.
I know we agree to disagree here and maybe there is no point to continue the discussion. However that some of the Paul letters regarded as scriptures doesn't mean that Scripture existed as it is right now. Since you based your acceptance on scripture from what is passed to you from later generations, nowhere in the scripture is saying from what books is consisted or what is accept and what is not. There where numerous attempts to include other books or imitate some of the authors of accepted books. Early church history is full of such situations. So when I say that my understanding for Women Deacons has more weight since is based on the confession of faith of early church fathers and their wittings, is actually a point since they lived on the teaching of the apostles without interpretations and when Scripture wasn't as it is now, not that it wasn't existent.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/29/2008 11:01:55 PM
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ChurchService
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The role of women in the Church has been a topic of debate, for probably as long as the New Testament was known as the word of God. Many of the writings of Paul concerning women are the controversal subjects, such as women are to learn in silence, women are to keep silence in the churches, let women ask their husbands at home for it is a shame for women to speak in the church, the woman being deceived was in transgression so she shall be saved in childbearing, and suffer not a woman to teach a man but be in silence.
This subject of the woman being silent and being deceived is spoken of in the Bible not just once but many times. Most of the time this important topic is not even discussed because it is hard to understand and hard to take if you are a strong minded woman. Even when the interpretation is toned down to mean something other than what it is literally saying, it doesn't really make much sense for us women.
If you are interested in a interpretation of these scriptures that will make these scriptures some of the most important scriptures for us to know and understand rather than scriptures to tip toe around, than you have to read this website. This website gives a spiritual interpretation of these scriptures using only the Bible to back up the reasoning. It is so amazing any woman who has a passion for understanding the Bible will welcome this refreshing Holy spirit inspired interpretation of Paul's writings concerning women. This is must read! I guarantee it will bring new light to the topic of women in the church.
Scroll past the Cain and Abel example to the second example called "Discussion on Women in the Church".
Link removed TOS 15
< Message edited by Kath -- 6/29/2008 11:39:52 PM >
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 10:59:12 PM
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Abbreviated
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On Father's Day our church had women ushers.
Does your church have women ushers ?
Does it matter if the ushers are women or men ?
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 6/30/2008 11:18:37 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6962
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
On Father's Day our church had women ushers.
That's great!
quote:
Does your church have women ushers ?
Are ushers and deacons the same thing? I've been attending several churches. Many of them have teens (girls and boys) serving communion and taking the offering. I don't care for that. I can understand it once in a while (like youth Sunday, etc.), but not every Sunday.
quote:
Does it matter if the ushers are women or men ?
Again, I'm not sure if there is a difference between an usher and a deacon.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/1/2008 2:33:21 PM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 6614
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
Again, I'm not sure if there is a difference between an usher and a deacon.
It would be a strange church to make ushering the sole job of deacons. In any case, I've never been in any like that. I even served as an usher as a teenager.
Scripturally, deacons were called to serve tables - perform ministries that freed the Apostles to do what they were called to do: devote themselves to prayer and to the ministry of the word. (See Acts 6)
Except for tradition, there's no reason a woman shouldn't be able to serve as an usher.
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 1:04:30 PM
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Roberta_
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I think my problem with the teens doing it is that most of the time they are doing it with a bad attitude and they miss half the people. I've had to flag them down to get communion down my row and had several times where I've just dropped my offering off at the end of the service because they missed my row.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/2/2008 3:07:09 PM
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Abbreviated
Posts: 2106
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From: Kansas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DenimDiva
quote:
ORIGINAL: Abbreviated
On Father's Day our church had women ushers.
That's great!
quote:
Does your church have women ushers ?
Are ushers and deacons the same thing? I've been attending several churches. Many of them have teens (girls and boys) serving communion and taking the offering. I don't care for that. I can understand it once in a while (like youth Sunday, etc.), but not every Sunday.
quote:
Does it matter if the ushers are women or men ?
Again, I'm not sure if there is a difference between an usher and a deacon.
Our deacon's serve communion.
Our ushers are usually men of the church.
Dh is a deacon, but not an usher.
_____________________________
Buried In Legos...
Bologna Donuts
Jackie
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 11:13:26 AM
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celebratejesus911
Posts: 61
Joined: 7/4/2008
From: Sams Valley, Oregon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Scripture makes it clear that women can pray and prophesy. No question about that. it's plain as can be from I Cor. I also think that women can teach and exhibit all sorts of other gifts. The only place where scripture draws the line is in having authority over men and to teach them doctrine. That is the only thing prohibited.
Yes, the Word is the Ultimate authority, Gods Word. Too many are leaving out parts, conveniently, making it a more "people friendly" What some don't realize as they are evidently deceived, is that God is not just people friendly already, but pure, Love. The bible is about His Love. Even in His anger, He can't NOT Love. But He disciplines and corrects becasue He loves:)
Living for Him, denise
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 11:21:24 AM
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celebratejesus911
Posts: 61
Joined: 7/4/2008
From: Sams Valley, Oregon
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quote:
ORIGINAL: suzanned
quote:
ORIGINAL: Beck34
That is true. I never really thought of it that way, but you are correct in that point. The new testament is full of examples of disagreements that were easily summed up with that very thing. Look at the letters that Paul writes to the early church. There were many disagreements on various things, but it clearly states that what is right for one man may not be right for another. Our foundation should be in Christ. He will lead us in the way that is right for us as an individual, not as a group.
There are many areas of the Bible that are debated as far as meaning. That is for sure. But you are correct that God does impart His Spirit and with that a discernment to the Scriptures. We begin to see as God sees. We are unique unto Him. We will always have disagreements while we are in our humaness. It is only through Christ that we can be in unity despite those differences. It is having a heart for Him that leads us on. You are definately on the right track.
The bible is for all, but not all will choose Him. His Word. His Word it's self is right for all, but different gifts for example, are right for different people, true for them. We are all unique. I don't think you mean that for example, if the Word says Woman are not to be in authority over men, that doesn't mean that "some" women can be?? Yes, someone have "had" to be due to men not following Christs lead. It doesn't change His Word though, it is still not right. Not the womans fault, necessarily, but still wrong.
MHO, Living for Him, denise
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 11:45:21 AM
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CrimsonMoon
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My understanding is that a woman can have any role in the church (including any title that may come with that role) as long as she is not the pastor. (I personally don't a have a problem with the married couple who are both ordained, as long as the head pastor is the husband.)
Though I would have to study this more, I would think that the "don't let a woman teach a man" would have much to do with the fact that women could not read. If you can not read Scripture, you should not teach theology or doctrine which MUST be based on Scripture and Scripture alone.
I also don't have a problem with a woman being ordained, such as Joyce Myers, who is not a pastor of a church. She preaches at conferences, seminars, and is even the "special speaker" at churches giving a sermon, but she is not a pastor of any church.
Also, no one has a problem with an American woman missionary "teaching" new Chinese men about theology in China. Again, it seems that it is being the head of a church that Christ has appointed only for men, and as many pointed out here has nothing to do with equality, but more as symbolism of Christ and His Father.
I will have to admitt that I have a problem with women youth pastors. That whole idea seems very dangerous to me -- both spiritually and emotionally. Teen boys should have a male youth pastor. Teen boys NEED to see man taking a stand for Jesus in today's world. Again, I would not have a problem if a man and woman were the youth pastors of the church, (a married couple would be ideal) or even if a teen boy felt more comfortable talking to the woman for whatever reason. BUT, the youth group should always have a man in authority over them. "Youth groups" were not in the Bible, and I believe should be consdiered a church within a church, therefore the head should be a man.
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My Blog: Nightmares and Dreamscapes
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/10/2008 10:15:32 PM
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Roberta_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
(I personally don't a have a problem with the married couple who are both ordained, as long as the head pastor is the husband.)
I went to a church like that last Sunday.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 11:04:58 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6206
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<------- not for women pastors.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/16/2008 12:05:25 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2910
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CrimsonMoon
Though I would have to study this more, I would think that the "don't let a woman teach a man" would have much to do with the fact that women could not read. If you can not read Scripture, you should not teach theology or doctrine which MUST be based on Scripture and Scripture alone.
There are some interesting discussions on this thread that I think adequately capture the range of thought on the 1 Tim 2 passage you're referencing here. Search on "authentein" and I think you'll probably hit most of the good posts. (That's the word for "have authority over" that's used here.)
You can also search on "didaskein" (the word for "teach" that's linked to it.) I think that's referenced in at least one other posts.
Happy hunting!
BT
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 12:11:01 AM
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hellochurch
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mabel you are talking my language, on your post joint heir
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2008 12:21:02 AM
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hellochurch
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RE Women's Role in the church, it is the same one she was given with Adam, ADAM male and female, were both Blessed by God and given authority and dominion over the whole earth, and everything in it.
When Jesus bought this back for us, through the cross and going to hell on our behalf,(3 days and nights, beating up darkenss and their kingdom, ) he came out of there with our keys back and gave them back to us, everything we had lost through adam and eve.
I believe God our father does not differentiate between the sexes at all, - this I think because He calls me 'son' and I am female. ie many sons He is bringing into Glory.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:38:52 AM
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hellochurch
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dEAR dENIM AND CRIMSON MOON: hAVE YOU LOOKED INTO THE ORIGINAL HEBREW, WITH AVAILABLE JEWISH STUDIES ON THE MEANINGS OF THE ORIGINAL ROOT WORDS FOR THE ORIGIN TEXTS ON ADAM IN THE GARDEN, A D A M WHICH MEANT MALE AND FEMALE TOGETHER? A D A M WAS ADDRESSED AS EARTH MAN, I THINK IT MEANT, TAKEN FROM RED SOIL, OR SO METHING, BUT THE MEANING OF THE ROOT WAS LIKE 'HUMAN MALE AND FEMALE PEOPLE' TYPE THING, SO THE FEMALE RECEIVED EVERYTHING THAT THE MALE DID FROM THE LORD, THE DIFFERENTIATING CAME FROM THE FALL AS PART OF THE CURSE, WHICH JESUS ABOLISHED WHEN HE BOUGHT BACK EVERYTHING LOST BY A D A M (MALE AND FEMALE) BY WHAT HE DID. MEN DOMINATING WOMEN IS PART OF THE CURSE AND PART OF THE FALL, WHICH THE BIBLE SAYS JESUS REDEEMED US FROM. WE ARE REDEEMED FROM THE CURSE BECAUSE JESUS BECAME A CURSE FOR US SO WE COULD GET HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND BE REINSTATED TO OUR GARDEN STATE. Y E A H !!!!!!!1
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:43:33 AM
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hellochurch
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DEAR DENIM; WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS THIS, THAT THE ORIGINAL TEXTS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE GENESIS ACCOUNT, SHOW GOD ADRESSING A D A M AS THE MALE AND FEMALE HUMAN, WITH THE ONE WORD COVERING THEM BOTH WHICH IS TRANSLATED A D A M , WHICH I THINK MEANT IN OUR LANGUAGE, ' HUMAN' OR 'MANKIND' BUT IT WAS ADDRESSED TO BOTH, NOT TO THE MAL E, THE DOMINATION OF THE WOMAN CAME AS PART OF THE FALL, AND THE JEWS WERE NOTORIOUSLY SINFUL IN THE WAYS THAT THEY IMPLEMENTED THIS IN THEIR SOCIETY AT THE TIME OF JESUS. JESUS DID NOT TREAT WOMEN THE WAY HIS SOCIETY DICTATED. HE WAS AN EMANCIPATED MALE THE EMANCIPATED O N E TO DELIVER EMANCIPATE ALL WOMEN FROM THE CURSE, FOREVER.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 10:52:56 AM
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benelchi
Posts: 2911
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From: California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: hellochurch
DEAR DENIM; WHAT I MEANT TO SAY WAS THIS, THAT THE ORIGINAL TEXTS IN THE ORIGINAL LANGUAGE OF THE GENESIS ACCOUNT, SHOW GOD ADRESSING A D A M AS THE MALE AND FEMALE HUMAN, WITH THE ONE WORD COVERING THEM BOTH WHICH IS TRANSLATED A D A M , WHICH I THINK MEANT IN OUR LANGUAGE, ' HUMAN' OR 'MANKIND' BUT IT WAS ADDRESSED TO BOTH, NOT TO THE MAL E, THE DOMINATION OF THE WOMAN CAME AS PART OF THE FALL, AND THE JEWS WERE NOTORIOUSLY SINFUL IN THE WAYS THAT THEY IMPLEMENTED THIS IN THEIR SOCIETY AT THE TIME OF JESUS. JESUS DID NOT TREAT WOMEN THE WAY HIS SOCIETY DICTATED. HE WAS AN EMANCIPATED MALE THE EMANCIPATED O N E TO DELIVER EMANCIPATE ALL WOMEN FROM THE CURSE, FOREVER.
I can read the Hebrew text, and I don't see this in the text at all.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 8:35:44 PM
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J_Michael80
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Women must be silent in the church, meaning they cannot be pastors or elders of the church. With that said, women can still serve in churches by being deacons, through womens ministry, sunday school teachers, etc.
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:16:44 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
women can still serve in churches by being deacons
You will not find this in Scripture. Both elders and deacons must be men, and in fact, their qualifications are very similar.
This does not mean that women have nothing to contribute. Quite the opposite. But they are clearly forbidden to preach, or teach or take authority over the local church. Neither are they offered the office of deacon.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:24:01 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1778
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quote:
JESUS DID NOT TREAT WOMEN THE WAY HIS SOCIETY DICTATED. HE WAS AN EMANCIPATED MALE THE EMANCIPATED O N E TO DELIVER EMANCIPATE ALL WOMEN FROM THE CURSE, FOREVER.
It is one thing to be emancipated from the curse of sin and death. It is quite another thing to usurp authority against the teachings of the Word.
And your idea of Christ as an "emancipated male" falls far short of who He is. He is God our Creator and Redeemer, who makes no distinction between the sexes in the matter of salvation, but does make a distinction in the matter of service.
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Women's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:53:26 PM
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J_Michael80
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quote:
original: Ezra
You will not find this in Scripture. Both elders and deacons must be men
In (Romans 16:1), it refers to Phoebe with the same Greek word Paul used in (1 Timothy 3:12). Of course it is unclear whether Paul is saying Phoebe is a "deacon" or whether Paul is saying she is a "servant." Phoebe may not have had the official designation of “deacon” but Paul thought enough of her to entrust her with the responsibility of delivering the epistle to the Romans to the church in Rome (Romans 16:1-2).
Yes, I agree that Scripture does not support the idea of women serving as deacons, but it does not necessarily disqualify them. The office of deacon is a servant office, not a office of authority like the eldership. This is seen in the origin of deacons in (Acts 6:1-6) and in the definition of the original Greek word. The word deacon in Greek ("diakonos") originally meant "a person who waits on tables." If a church chooses to institute the position of deaconess, the church must ensure that the deaconess is in full submission to the restrictions of women found in (1 Timothy 2:11-12).
< Message edited by faithfulservant_ -- 7/19/2008 1:06:56 AM >
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Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2008 11:55:09 PM
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Roberta_
Posts: 6962
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From: East Bay Area
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Is it OK for a woman to be a pastor, but not of a church? I'm thinking like maybe a Christian motivational speaker?
If women are not supposed to preach, then why do so many of them feel called to do so?
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RE: Men's role in the Church - One Stop Thread - 7/19/2008 12:19:57 AM
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J_Michael80
Posts: 399
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quote:
original: DenimDiva
Is it OK for a woman to be a pastor, but not of a church? I'm thinking like maybe a Christian motivational speaker?
Women cannot be pastors.......period. Nevertheless, I believe women can be a Christian motivational speaker but it cannot include the position of authority. The key word is authority.
In creation, God made Adam first and then Eve to be his helper. This is the order of creation. It is this order that Paul mentions in (1 Tim. 2:11-14) when speaking of authority. Being a pastor or elder is to be in the place of authority. Therefore, within the church, for a woman to be a pastor or elder, she would be in authority of men in the church which contradicts what Paul says in (1 Tim. 2:11-14). I believe this also applies universally, at public or private Christian events.
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