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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:06:33 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve....
Acording to Old Testament culture, the one who names another is the one who exercises authority over the one named.
That may well be so ... I'm inclined to agree with this, although I haven't studied it thoroughly.
But you will note that Adam did not name her Eve until after the Fall. It was after the fall that Patriarchy and gender-based rule was ushered in, as God predicted when he told Eve "he shall rule over you." This was not God's original design.
He named her "woman" before the fall. Not God but Adam named her.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:08:06 PM
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Ginosko
Posts: 132
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joint heir,
I don't see how you can have much more authority than being a mouthpiece for God.
The prophet possesses no inherent authority. His authority is the Word of God itself which he declares. Many of God's prohets were put to death.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:14:23 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve....
Acording to Old Testament culture, the one who names another is the one who exercises authority over the one named.
That may well be so ... I'm inclined to agree with this, although I haven't studied it thoroughly.
But you will note that Adam did not name her Eve until after the Fall. It was after the fall that Patriarchy and gender-based rule was ushered in, as God predicted when he told Eve "he shall rule over you." This was not God's original design.
He named her "woman" before the fall. Not God but Adam named her.
"Woman" is not her name like Sally or Felicia (or Eve). It is the man's recognition of who she is -- bone of his bones, flesh of his flesh. Eve is her name, given to her after the Fall.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:19:31 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
quote:
ORIGINAL: Coheir
quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
And Adam called his wife’s name Eve....
Acording to Old Testament culture, the one who names another is the one who exercises authority over the one named.
That may well be so ... I'm inclined to agree with this, although I haven't studied it thoroughly.
But you will note that Adam did not name her Eve until after the Fall. It was after the fall that Patriarchy and gender-based rule was ushered in, as God predicted when he told Eve "he shall rule over you." This was not God's original design.
He named her "woman" before the fall. Not God but Adam named her.
"Woman" is not her name like Sally or Felicia (or Eve). It is the man's recognition of who she is -- bone of his bones, flesh of his flesh. Eve is her name, given to her after the Fall.
Okay, I'll let you split that hair -- it's not her "proper" name. But her designation in the animal kingdom was given by Adam. That's even more significant than her proper name.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:21:31 PM
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p31woman
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From: Texas, and now South Dakota
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But at some point I think it would be worthwhile to discuss, and I think for a lot of women who are lurking, it would clear up some questions.
Indubitably.
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RE: Moving on... - 4/21/2005 6:21:36 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
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From: Northern California
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Back up. With that logic, the same could be said of Samuel and many other prophets. There was authority in being a "mouth piece" for God. No question. So the woman did have authority. Let's not denigrate that. The point is not that she had authority. The point is that she is THE ONLY example out of thousands of years of history of our Judeo Christian heritage.
I'll say it again. If the Lord did something once, He can certainly do it again, but is that the way it's intended to be? Divorce is not the way it's intended to be either, but God made provisions for that. Polygamy was not the way it was intended to be, but God made provisions for that too. That is why I don't believe it's unthinkable or necessarily out of God's will for a church to have a woman pastor. Do I think it's what God intends to happen? No. Not according to the pattern that was set right from the creation.
Oh, btw, me saying that does not mean that I'm embracing all the women who are pastors. Far from it.
See, just by saying that she was an example of authority gives room for all kinds of speculation and compromise as you can see the next few posts after this one from bizrk. The problem is: Deborah was one of 15 Judges that God raised up to Judge Israel. When one of these Judges died, Israel fell into sin again and had to cry out to the Lord and then another Judge was raised up. All of these Judges were men except Deborah: If you notice, she was the only incomplete Judge. She needed and relied on Barak to succeed. Without Barak, nothing could have been accomplished. The discussion tends to focu on Deborah and her "authority" but what good was her prophecy if Barak wasn't there to do the activity of the instruction? Isn't this somewhat of a picture of the elders in our church? To say the elder stands alone is not true. Behind them, most of them, stands a wife and she contributes to his thinking. God can use the wife to guide the husband but ultimately...it's the husband that takes the responsibility. Look at the bad example of Samson and Delilah. She was VERY manipulitive and worked through Samson to his destruction. Look at the opposite example of Ruth, her submission got her where she needed to be.
_____________________________
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Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:28:30 PM
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Ginosko
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coheir,
How do you reconcile the meaning of "ezer kenegdo" and the concept of "headship"? They both can't be true at the same time.
That's a fair question; let's look at it. Ezer kenegdo does, in fact, properly mean "helper". In Hebrew the terms mean literally, "a help like or corresponding to himself." There's nothing myterious or difficult to understand about these words. The problem is that egalitarians find the word "helper" to be demeaning. There is absolutely nothing demeaning at all, however, about being a helper. God Himself also assumed the role of a helper. This certainly does not mean that God was inferior in any way. Just because there have been men who have mishandled their leadership role and have dishonored women in so doing causing others to view them as inferior is a totally foreign concept to loving, biblically mandated headship. My point is that subordination is totally possible among equals. That is why I labored so hard at providing our readers a description of the submission of the Son to the Father. The Bible calls for women to submit themselves to the headship of their husbands. It has been so since the creation. Just remember, Adam didn't asked to be the head of his family. His role was assigned to him by God. I regret that feminists have chosen to be offended by the concepts of biblical authority and leadership and the roles assigned to men and women by their Creator. I admit that we've made a mess of it but the standard is good. It was created by God.
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RE: Moving on... - 4/21/2005 6:29:50 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
Look at the opposite example of Ruth, her submission got her where she needed to be.[/color]
Look at another example, that of Abigail, and her lack of submission was used to usher in the greater good - the avoidance of a battle and deaths of men.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:33:12 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bzirk
Okay, I'll let you split that hair -- it's not her "proper" name. But her designation in the animal kingdom was given by Adam. That's even more significant than her proper name.
Thanks for letting me split that hair. I wanna split another one now. 
You refer to her "designation in the animal kingdom" ... are you saying she is on the same level as the animals?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:40:52 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
How do you reconcile the meaning of "ezer kenegdo" and the concept of "headship"? They both can't be true at the same time.
That's a fair question; let's look at it. Ezer kenegdo does, in fact, properly mean "helper". In Hebrew the terms mean literally, "a help like or corresponding to himself." There's nothing myterious or difficult to understand about these words. The problem is that egalitarians find the word "helper" to be demeaning. There is absolutely nothing demeaning at all, however, about being a helper. God Himself also assumed the role of a helper. This certainly does not mean that God was inferior in any way. Just because there have been men who have mishandled their leadership role and have dishonored women in so doing causing others to view them as inferior is a totally foreign concept to loving, biblically mandated headship. My point is that subordination is totally possible among equals. That is why I labored so hard at providing our readers a description of the submission of the Son to the Father. The Bible calls for women to submit themselves to the headship of their husbands. It has been so since the creation. Just remember, Adam didn't asked to be the head of his family. His role was assigned to him by God. I regret that feminists have chosen to be offended by the concepts of biblical authority and leadership and the roles assigned to men and women by their Creator. I admit that we've made a mess of it but the standard is good. It was created by God.
Gino, please understand that I do not in the least find the term "helper" to be demeaning. Where you and I differ is in your insistence that the helper is automatically the subordinate one to the leader. That is simply not the case ... as has been amply demonstrated by God as our ezer. Some more examples: when I help my son with his homework, I am helping him, but he is not my leader. When a fireman is a rescuer (ezer) to someone in a burning building, the victim is not the leader.
You are equating the term helper with a de facto leader/subordinate relationship. That's where we differ. Would you agree that that is one point on which we differ?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:42:21 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
ORIGINAL: p31woman
Hmm, I gotta get me one of those husbands, then, so I don't have to be accountable for my own sin...
If you look further down, Eve too had to pay for her sin. Adam was held accountable however also for both he and Eve. The Bible says it and it cannot be denied. Your statement sounds good but is false.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:43:31 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
was wondering if you would trip on that. God designated Adam's place in the animal kingdom. Technically men and women are all animals are we not? Not in the sense of our importance, but in the sense of science's classifications for life. I don't have a problem with that, do you?
Yep. It's not biblical.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:44:01 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
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From: Where the deer and antelope play
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And I don't automatically assign connotations to helper that allow me to extrapolate leader/helper out of that passage. I'm getting my conclusion from the pattern set concering men's headship right out of the chute with Adam being in the lead, and then at the end of the Bible, Paul makes reference to it more than once, and Peter makes reference to it. That kind of clears up any quetsions I have about whether or not there is indeed a pattern.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:48:32 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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quote:
If this is about Deborah, I find this idea laughable that a prophet had no authority because he/she was just a mouthpiece. If that's the case, then a preacher better not call himself a prophet. LOL!
She had no authority that usurped man's. The Bible does not contradict itself Bzirk. It's not going to go against what God has already mandated. To say what you have said is to have the Bible contradict 1 Timothy 2 and 3 as well as other passages we have shown you. Prophetess means teacher. Does a teacher have a lot of authority?
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:54:38 PM
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Ginosko
Posts: 132
Joined: 4/11/2005
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coheir,
You are equating the term helper with a de facto leader/subordinate relationship. That's where we differ. Would you agree that that is one point on which we differ?
Indeed! Jesus is subordinate to the Father but He is also equal. There's nothing inherently wrong nor intrisically demeaning, or inferior about being a subordinate or an "helper". But let's talk it through a wee bit more. Jesus' submission to the Father is eternal. The Father, by mutual agreement is higher in rank and authority than the Son (John 5:18-30). Being one's helper does, in fact, imply one having authority over another but it does not imply inequality. Judge for yourself if it is proper for a woman to pray with her head uncovered. Paul says that to do so dishonors her husband. What are we to make of this?
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:57:57 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
My point is that subordination is totally possible among equals.
Believe it or not, I totally agree with you on this point. 
I think it deserves closer examination. Subordination among equals in life is never lifelong, though the hierarchalists will say that it is so. The phrase used to describe this phenomenon is "equal in being, unequal in function." Functional subordination is practiced in order to perform a task, and generally applies only to a specific period of time or in a limited area of life. For example, a captain is subordinate to a general, but only in the line of duty. When they are off duty, out of the military, etc, they are equal. Functional subordination usually occurs when one person is deemed more skilled to lead,or when the other's ability is inferior. Or one person voluntarily submits to the other in order to accomplish a specific task. For example, if a friend and I are working together to paint the Sunday school classrooms in the church, and I have less experience at painting, I will subordinate myself to him, let him lead, so that the task can be accomplished more efficiently.
Female subordination to male leadership, however, is not merely functional. It is lifelong, and not limited on the basis of ability or task. According to hierarchalists, it is ontological -- it defines her very personhood. And when it is applied this way, it does, in fact, make her "inferior" in all but lip-service.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:58:59 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1747
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The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:19 for help in helpmeet is the word ayzer which when translated means help or aid.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 6:59:57 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ginosko
coheir,
You are equating the term helper with a de facto leader/subordinate relationship. That's where we differ. Would you agree that that is one point on which we differ?
Indeed!
But how can that be? You agree that helper equates to a de facto leader/subordinate relationship. God is our helper. Therefore, God is subordinate.
How can this be? Methinks not.
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:00:06 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2915
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
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I forgot to address the issue of Huldah. She was indeed a prophetess, and she did give the Lord's words. That is important, but she summoned no one, and she gave no command. She gave a revelation of what was going to happen. When considering the authority of the elders in the local church, this incident doesn't really apply.
_____________________________
may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so you will abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit. Romans 15:13
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Equal value different roles... - 4/21/2005 7:01:01 PM
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Coheir
Posts: 122
Joined: 4/13/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
The Hebrew word used in Genesis 2:19 for help in helpmeet is the word ayzer which when translated means help or aid.
That is correct, Bygrace. It is transliterated as either ayzer or ezer - they're the same thing. And it bears repeating - 20 out of the 21 times it's used in the OT, it is used to describe God as our helper.
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But at some point I think it would be worthwhile to discuss, and I think for a lot of women who are lurking, it would clear up some questions.
