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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/18/2008 10:01:52 PM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 954
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
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quote:
It has everything to do with your assertions because you want to excuse false teachers and false prophets with the old tag line of, "well, no one's teachings are perfect..." when that is an incorrect argument to begin with. Then feel free to argue with that "old tag line"... Biblically, of course.
Rather, you are catagorizing people based on teachings that they propogated twenty years ago. Had we used that same plumb line on Paul, the 1 Century church would never have come into existence. Once again, you are arguing with me having grace on fallen human beings and giving room for human error... Planks and specks, my friends...quote:
We can indeed hold to the core essentials of biblical Christianity correctly.. and there are indeed public figures in Christian media that do hold to sound doctrine. Fine, then... what core essentials are in dispute, sir?quote:
Seriously, not trying to be flippant or short, but it is rather bothersome to read your post when several of us have several thousands of posts, countless hours of posting here documenting and doing what you seem to be saying has not been done. Does your "countless hours" and "several thousands of posts" make you any more correct? Obviously not. Why? Because I have done the exact same thing, and yet we find outselves on opposite sides of the fence time and again. Honestly? Pointing your reputation without even providing links to your arguments doesn't impress me... and I'm certain it won't impress the person you are replying to above.quote:
Boy, is anyone else but me tired of this ridiculous argument against those who speak out about leaders who do nothing but lead God's sheep astray?
Anyone can say they are God's anointed these days...does it make it so? Nope, I don't think so And had you read my context of that phrase rather than having a knee-jerk reaction to the language itself, you would have seen that your comment is completely irrelevant. I said rather than saying everyone is "_______", I would rather exercise my meekness and humility, while voicing my opinion and hopefully changing someone's mind.quote:
I don't have to attend a JW convention or a go to a service at a Mormon Ward to know they are false religions, do I?
Anyone need only look at who was involved in the creation of this movement to see it is filled with leaders who are proven false teachers and false prophets.
That said, I do believe that many valid pastors/churches have jumped on The Call train without knowing fully what is at the root of the movement they are backing. They should have done their homework! As for those who "did their homework" and would disagree with your above statements?
I would say that your JW and Mormon examples are not relevant because you are talking about false religions versus a movement within your own religion. But that is just me. quote:
They specifically reject at IHOP what I just highlighted. **Ding!!** +20 points!
It should also be noted that thus far there has been no biblical evidence to condemn The Call... only screaming about Mike Bickle and Lou Engle
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/19/2008 8:55:00 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6207
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Adam,
If your words were true, you would not be avoiding the Mike Bickle/IHOP thread where many questions remain unanswered.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/19/2008 12:44:49 PM
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Peter_Gunn
Posts: 706
Joined: 6/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Adam,
If your words were true, you would not be avoiding the Mike Bickle/IHOP thread where many questions remain unanswered.
Amen. And, Adam, I'd like your comment to my comment that these organizations (The Call, IHOP, JHOP, Joel's Army...to name but a few) appear to teach and preach Dominionism.
Thanks!
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/19/2008 10:37:20 PM
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stimulus
Posts: 184
Joined: 6/4/2005
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Without getting into all the detail here again (see the past threads for more), I did want to throw in my two cents quickly. It goes like this:
I am a card-carrying, tongues-speaking pentecostal Christian. I have spent 27 years in pentecostal churches; I work for a pentecostal church. I've seen my share of abuses of emotionalism in the church, and I've defended the unique aspects of our beliefs from attack by those who don't understand it.
That said, the Call event my church took a group of young adults to at the start of this year was the single weirdest event I have ever been to. There were some decent points to the 12 hour event, but overwhelmingly, the things the leaders said and did were out of line. It is entirely based on what their leadership thinks God has shown them, while they neglect and distort the clear teaching of the Bible when it suits their purposes. Some highlights:
- They had participants pray the same prayers over-and-over again, in rapid succession, in violation of Jesus' clear teaching to not mindlessly repeat yourself in prayer like the pagans do. Other ways in which they acted while praying made one wonder if don't they believe that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective unless he, again, acts like a pagan and whip themselves into a frenzy.
- Lou Engle spent a great deal of time teaching us the "doctrine of the blood guilt", in which blood must be spilled to cover America's sins. If we don't repent, terrorism and natural disasters will spill American blood to cover the sin (abortion) and appease a seemingly blood-thirsty God. An example of this happening in the past was the Civil War, in which God demanded the blood of so many to cover the sin of slavery.
- They spent over an hour praying for their prophet, Lou Engle, and talking about how great he is for the revelation of the doctrine of the blood guilt. By the time our pastor finally decided we could leave, we were all calling it "The Lou Engle Show"
The event was supposed to be 12 hours of solemn prayer and fasting. Instead, it was a joke among our young adults group and everyone at my office who I told about it. There were other issues going on in our young adults ministry, but with a couple weeks of this event, our young adults pastor suddenly resigned "to pursue other opportunities". Taking us to this event, and the complaints we made after it to the church's leadership, was definitely part of the reason he left. It was that bad. I do not suggest ever ever going.
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/20/2008 4:13:45 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 954
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
Adam,
If your words were true, you would not be avoiding the Mike Bickle/IHOP thread where many questions remain unanswered. Have you considered the possibility that maybe I'm sick of repeating the same things over and over, only to have them fall on seemingly deaf ears?
Have you considered further that maybe my life doesn't hinge on your judgement... just like a genuine move of the spirit does not hinge on mine?
Thirdly, if you have something specific that you want me to adress, feel free to PM me. I will (almost) never turn one of those away.
Fourthly, I find it interesting that I am "avoiding" the above metioned thread (which I did not know I was), and that this "oversight" is brought up in a completely different thread. If I tried this on someone else, it would probably be called harassing. But whatever.quote:
Amen. And, Adam, I'd like your comment to my comment that these organizations (The Call, IHOP, JHOP, Joel's Army...to name but a few) appear to teach and preach Dominionism.
Thanks! And I already addressed your opinion. Dominionism teaches that the church is going to take over the whole world prior to the return of Christ. The Call, IHOP, JHOP, and pretty much any other ministry that gets traced back to Mike Bickle teaches that Jesus is going to return to take control of the earth. I would also say that there is a massive difference between praying for God to raise up righteousness in the government of our nation and praying that God would bless our cause to crusade against the nation and seize it. I believe what you are confusing is Millenial Theology with Dominionism. An understandable mistake, to be sure... but it is still a mistake.
Stimulus: response... (pardon the pun)...
quote:
They had participants pray the same prayers over-and-over again, in rapid succession, in violation of Jesus' clear teaching to not mindlessly repeat yourself in prayer like the pagans do. Other ways in which they acted while praying made one wonder if don't they believe that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective unless he, again, acts like a pagan and whip themselves into a frenzy. (A) Jesus' command says not to pray as the pharisees and the pagans "because they think they will be heard because of their many words." The Harp and Bowl model is designed for making prayer accessible, and the repetition is for the sake of the person praying.
(B) There is a difference between pretending that if you shout louder God will hear you better (paganism), and combining prayer with good music to make the former more enjoyable.quote:
Lou Engle spent a great deal of time teaching us the "doctrine of the blood guilt", in which blood must be spilled to cover America's sins. If we don't repent, terrorism and natural disasters will spill American blood to cover the sin (abortion) and appease a seemingly blood-thirsty God. An example of this happening in the past was the Civil War, in which God demanded the blood of so many to cover the sin of slavery. This is a typical misunderstanding of the doctrine of bloodguilt. The doctrine is that unless we repent (in which case our sin is paid for by the blood of Christ), Justice demands recompense (which is classical Biblical doctrine). It is a logical extension of the doctrine of Hell... either we repent of our sins, our we will be punished for them. If you cannot believe in the doctrine of bloodguilt, you cannot logically believe in Eternal Justice either. I know for a fact that I have addressed this in a previous thread, so I will not go into deeper detail here. This is merely another example of my words falling on cloth ears...
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/20/2008 4:17:02 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 954
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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For what it's worth, I find it funny that I am getting grilled about not answering questions, and Earthless, you have still not mentioned what core essentials are at stake... planks and specks, my friends.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/20/2008 5:54:04 AM
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stimulus
Posts: 184
Joined: 6/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
Stimulus: response... (pardon the pun)...
quote:
They had participants pray the same prayers over-and-over again, in rapid succession, in violation of Jesus' clear teaching to not mindlessly repeat yourself in prayer like the pagans do. Other ways in which they acted while praying made one wonder if don't they believe that the prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective unless he, again, acts like a pagan and whip themselves into a frenzy. (A) Jesus' command says not to pray as the pharisees and the pagans "because they think they will be heard because of their many words." The Harp and Bowl model is designed for making prayer accessible, and the repetition is for the sake of the person praying.
(B) There is a difference between pretending that if you shout louder God will hear you better (paganism), and combining prayer with good music to make the former more enjoyable.
quote:
Lou Engle spent a great deal of time teaching us the "doctrine of the blood guilt", in which blood must be spilled to cover America's sins. If we don't repent, terrorism and natural disasters will spill American blood to cover the sin (abortion) and appease a seemingly blood-thirsty God. An example of this happening in the past was the Civil War, in which God demanded the blood of so many to cover the sin of slavery. This is a typical misunderstanding of the doctrine of bloodguilt. The doctrine is that unless we repent (in which case our sin is paid for by the blood of Christ), Justice demands recompense (which is classical Biblical doctrine). It is a logical extension of the doctrine of Hell... either we repent of our sins, our we will be punished for them. If you cannot believe in the doctrine of bloodguilt, you cannot logically believe in Eternal Justice either. I know for a fact that I have addressed this in a previous thread, so I will not go into deeper detail here. This is merely another example of my words falling on cloth ears...
Adam
Hi Adam,
I remember discussing this with you on a previous thread.
When I say the leaders at the Call had people pray repeatedly, I'm not talking about the Harp and Bowl method. Over the course of the six hours I was there, we didn't really pray for a lot of things. There was some repetition because of it, but that didn't really bother me. What floored me was when they had everyone pray a 22-word prayer over and over again, with nothing else between repetitions. You can disagree with me all you want, but it is my judgment from having been there that the only reason for repeating it so many times was either because they thought it would work better that way (ie, God would hear them, which is what Jesus said to avoid) or they thought it would get the kind of response from the crowd that they wanted (which is manipulation). Either way, I have a huge problem with it.
People did shout the 22-word prayer and the whole atmosphere taught that you had to "get into it" before God could hear your prayer or be moved to respond. As for combining prayer with music, I like some of what IHOP does in that area... but I'll never forget people singing "God, end abortion" for, I don't know, 20 minutes, and calling it prayer. Yeah, right.
As for your opinion that I misunderstood the false doctrine of the blood guilt, you're entitled to it. What I heard that day was that unless a bunch of Christians repented for things they didn't do, God would kill many people, many of whom might be innocent of the sin he was actually punishing us for. Somehow or another, all that blood would appease God's wrath's over abortion, as if human blood cover ever do that. You can claim I misunderstood, but I'm not trying to convince you. I'm warning others by describing what I saw and heard.
You claim that I don't understand eternal justice, but I wonder if you understand what repentance really means. It is not saying you're sorry or feeling really, really badly about sin. It is turning around, going another way, changing your behavior. The idea that I can repent for American's sins is absurd because I can not change what other people do just by feeling really, really sad that they do it. Since I can't repent (change) for America, the doctrine of the blood guilt falls apart on that basis alone. Moreover, it's not a logical extension of eternal damnation. Engle doesn't get to extend Scripture on the basis that God has supernaturally revealed to him the doctrine of the blood guilt, and oh, here are a couple verses that kinda-sorta relate when taken out of context and "enlightened" by the Holy Spirit.
I'm probably should have refrained from responding, but I couldn't. The bottom-line is that we both hold very strong and opposite views regarding the Call, IHOP, Bickle, Engle - the whole thing. We both know we won't agree on anything other than it not being worth the time to beat this old horse any more. 
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/20/2008 11:19:44 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6207
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FurGodWurLivin
For what it's worth, I find it funny that I am getting grilled about not answering questions, and Earthless, you have still not mentioned what core essentials are at stake... planks and specks, my friends.
Adam
Adam,
I have answered that 'Core Essentials' question at least 15 times in the last six months in this sub-forum alone. I will do a search for you and copy and paste the responses, give me till the end of this weekend to do so due to family events.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: What do you think of TheCall - 9/21/2008 5:09:07 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
Posts: 954
Joined: 4/17/2005
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
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quote:
What floored me was when they had everyone pray a 22-word prayer over and over again, with nothing else between repetitions. You can disagree with me all you want, but it is my judgment from having been there that the only reason for repeating it so many times was either because they thought it would work better that way (ie, God would hear them, which is what Jesus said to avoid) or they thought it would get the kind of response from the crowd that they wanted (which is manipulation). Either way, I have a huge problem with it. Which is actually not what is taught. What is taught is that the repetition of a prayer such as that is for the sake of the person praying. It is not that God doesn't hear you unless you shout/repeat/whatever. It is that by repeating it, you begin to believe it. Call it "spiritualized brainwashing" if you must (because I know it is what many think of it anyway), but the fact is that by repeating "I believe 'X'" you will begin to believe 'X'. As your faith increases (because without faith it is impossible to please God, according to Hebrews), there is the corporate dynamic that the prayer truly becomes the heart cry of those who are there. It is not a mindless repetition, but stirring faith. There is a massive difference between those two.quote:
As for your opinion that I misunderstood the false doctrine of the blood guilt, you're entitled to it. What I heard that day was that unless a bunch of Christians repented for things they didn't do, God would kill many people, many of whom might be innocent of the sin he was actually punishing us for. Somehow or another, all that blood would appease God's wrath's over abortion, as if human blood cover ever do that. You can claim I misunderstood, but I'm not trying to convince you. I'm warning others by describing what I saw and heard. And as someone else who was at the same event, I'm saying that you did not hear the actual message but what you thought of the actual message. What was said on that day was that unless we intercede for our nation, including the repenting of the sins for it, our nation is destined to judgement for our sins because they are unforgiven. God does not forgive sin that is not repented of... that forms the very basis of the Judeo-Christian belief in Perdition. This doctrine is found time and again all throughout the Old Testament and reaffirmed in the New Testament... specifically the book of Revelation. So yes, if you say that there is a theological problem with the doctrine of national judgement, it makes sense to believe in Hell either, because God doesn't judge unrepented sin.quote:
You claim that I don't understand eternal justice, but I wonder if you understand what repentance really means. It is not saying you're sorry or feeling really, really badly about sin. It is turning around, going another way, changing your behavior. No kidding. Yes, I know this. This is why the Call is also asking people to talk part in a purity covenant so that American Christians will break ties (both conscious and unconscious) with (A) the Spirit of the Age and (B) Immorality. So yes, there is repentence, and a change of behavior. It would be rose colored glasses that say that the church has nothing to repent of in the way of immorality.quote:
The idea that I can repent for American's sins is absurd because I can not change what other people do just by feeling really, really sad that they do it. Tell that to Daniel and Jeremiah. Daniel took upon himself the guilt for the entire Jewish population that was deported to Babylon. Jeremiah took upon himself the guilt of Israel and Judah before they even went. Yes, you can repent on behalf of your nation. Repent, then pray that God would send a spirit of Wisdom and Revelation, and break the back of wickedness in our nation.quote:
Moreover, it's not a logical extension of eternal damnation. As already stated, yes it is. They have the exact same theological foundation. God is Holy and God judges sin. That foundation is why Hell and Eternal Judgement make sense, and the idea that God judges nations for their sins in this lifetime is not only all over the Bible, but fits within the construct of Eternal Justice. Why were the Canaanites given into the hands of the Israelites? Because they sinned and refused to repent. Why was Israel given into the hands of the Assyrians? Because they sinned and refused to repent. Why was Judah given into the hands of Babylon? Because they sinned and refused to repent. Why was Babylon given into the hands of the Persians? Because they sinned and refused to repent. Why will Jesus return in Revelation 19 to slay the Antichrist's army? Because they sinned and refused to repent. Is the pattern becoming more clear here? What gave Israel a promise of how short the exile was going to be? Jeremiah wept over the sins of his nation and prayed for God to forgive. What brought Israel back from Babylon with a prophecy of the exact timing of the coming of Messiah? Daniel got on his face and repented for the sins of his nation. What is Jesus going to return to? The shout of the Spirit and the Bride saying "Come!", the people of Israel blessing Christ's return, and the fervent testimony of the martyrs crying out for justice. All of this is Biblically based, and shows the exact principle taught at The Call. Through Prayer judgement can be averted or lessened, and by prayer can judgement be brought to an end.quote:
We both know we won't agree on anything other than it not being worth the time to beat this old horse any more. Unfortunately so. I know my stand on this one is Biblical, so its pretty much worthless to try and change my mind about it.quote:
I have answered that 'Core Essentials' question at least 15 times in the last six months in this sub-forum alone. The only time I remember getting an actual answer you said something about the role of prophecy in the New Testament church... which won't lead your soul to hell because so much of the church believes prophecy doesn't exist at all. I look forward indeed to seeing the answers... feel free to take your time.
Adam
_____________________________
I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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