RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patriotic duty"
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 7:19:51 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Hah! Hah! Hah! I want a flying car, too. Even Republicans are spending. It would be wonderful if we could get spending under control, but in the meantime, since we can't stop the spending, we may as well get the budget deficit under control.
In government as in personal life, one can not out-earn wasteful spending habits.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 7:29:08 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
They are an employment cost. If we, as a country, can't figure out how to ensure retirement for people, we maybe shouldn't be having them work.
What????? It is not the job of the government to ensure that people can retire comfortably, that is up to the people themselves. If a person is unable to budget for 50ish years of their lives to save for retirement then no amount of money GIVEN to them in retirement years can outpace their inability to control spending.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 7:33:46 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1754
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
They are an employment cost. If we, as a country, can't figure out how to ensure retirement for people, we maybe shouldn't be having them work.
What????? It is not the job of the government to ensure that people can retire comfortably, that is up to the people themselves. If a person is unable to budget for 50ish years of their lives to save for retirement then no amount of money GIVEN to them in retirement years can outpace their inability to control spending.
"ensure retirement for people"
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. See why I fear this country may be too far gone? We're in trouble people.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 9:08:33 AM
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ljmac
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It's bizarre how liberals express patriotism. Some examples:
- Burning the American flag
- Revealing our spy programs
- Undermining our military
- Obsessing with America's weaknesses and dismissing her goodness. In fact, during moments of honesty, they insist that she's not a good country.
- And like Biden, taking other people's money.
If everyone was this patriotic, we'd make Ahmadinejad himself President instead of his water carrier.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 10:33:27 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
They are an employment cost. If we, as a country, can't figure out how to ensure retirement for people, we maybe shouldn't be having them work.
What????? It is not the job of the government to ensure that people can retire comfortably, that is up to the people themselves. If a person is unable to budget for 50ish years of their lives to save for retirement then no amount of money GIVEN to them in retirement years can outpace their inability to control spending.
"ensure retirement for people"
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. See why I fear this country may be too far gone? We're in trouble people.
Sad isn't it. Seems that we ahve raised a couple of generations now that view the world as an entitlement. That the government is here to care for us and make sure we all live in comfort. This past school year my daughter told me about a discussion her 8th grade class was having about the war on terrorism. I told her that if the Muslim extremists had their way and imposed their beliefs on us that she would not be allowed to go to school, that she would have to have her face covered in public and she would not be allowed in public without my say so. She said, "They can't do that." IN her line of thinking this is the USA, that kind of thing can't happen here. Yet, that's what the enemy wants to impose on us. Sadly, it seems, that far too many from all generations see the government as nothing more than a sugar daddy who feeds our every whim and desire.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 11:13:42 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
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ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
They are an employment cost. If we, as a country, can't figure out how to ensure retirement for people, we maybe shouldn't be having them work.
What????? It is not the job of the government to ensure that people can retire comfortably, that is up to the people themselves. If a person is unable to budget for 50ish years of their lives to save for retirement then no amount of money GIVEN to them in retirement years can outpace their inability to control spending.
"ensure retirement for people"
This is the kind of stuff that keeps me up at night. See why I fear this country may be too far gone? We're in trouble people.
Sad isn't it. Seems that we ahve raised a couple of generations now that view the world as an entitlement. That the government is here to care for us and make sure we all live in comfort. ...
I sometimes think that it would be a good thing for the US economy to tank completely and teach people the value of self sufficiency.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 11:37:12 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6207
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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And my post from page 2 rings truer and truer..
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 11:46:46 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
It's bizarre how liberals express patriotism. Some examples:
- Revealing our spy programs
- Undermining our military
- Obsessing with America's weaknesses and dismissing her goodness. In fact, during moments of honesty, they insist that she's not a good country.
Wow! I never know Bush was an example of a liberal! I never realized Republicans were that embarassed of him.
quote:
Raising taxes WILL NOT cut the deficit ONLY cutting spending can do that. To give the government more money yet again would be foolish. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.
So then it looks like you guys prefer inflation over taxes. So be it- we will have a redistribution of wealth that way.
When inflation hits the double-digits, good luck getting anyone on a fixed income (read: seniors) to believe the baloney that cutting taxes increases revenues.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/21/2008 11:54:49 AM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 1:02:42 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
When inflation hits the double-digits, good luck getting anyone on a fixed income (read: seniors) to believe the baloney that cutting taxes increases revenues.
Let's play in the land of reality for a bit
2003 to 2006 federal tax revenues increase
quote:
Growth in Federal Tax Revenues From 2003 to 2006
Total federal revenues grew by about $625 billion, or 35 percent, between fiscal year 2003 and fiscal year 2006. CBO's analysis of that increase in revenues since 2003 is necessarily preliminary because relevant data are not yet fully available. CBO examined the available data using the commonly employed method of analyzing the sources of revenue growth as a percentage of GDP. Had revenues grown at the same rate as the overall economy between 2003 and 2006, federal receipts would have increased by only $373 billion. The other $252 billion of the actual increase in revenues represents growth in excess of GDP growth. As a result, receipts as a share of GDP rose from 16.5 percent in 2003 to 18.4 percent in 2006, an increase of 1.9 percentage points (see Table 1).
And from the New York times of all places
quote:
While the blistering growth rate of Federal tax revenues has slowed, revenues are still rising at an unexpectedly high rate, narrowing the deficit and providing vindication for backers of President Bush’s 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. In the fourth quarter of 2006, according to the Treasury Department, federal receipts rose 8.17 percent from the quarter a year earlier. For the first five months of the current fiscal year, which started in October, federal tax receipts were up 9.3 percent. “There’s no sign of a slowdown at the federal level like the one showing up at the state level,” said Aviva Aron-Dine, a policy analyst at the center for Budget and Policy Priorities in Washington.
So it appears that cutting taxes DOES, in fact, raise revenues.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 3:24:51 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
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From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
FACT: Taxes are less burdensome when you are preventing someone from affording a $10 million yacht this year than when you force 100,000 people to switch from peanut butter and jelly to ramen noodles.
FACT: Undoing the second round of Bush tax cuts and leaving taxes on the wealthy at lower rates than they were paying under Reagan isn't about class-warfare. It is about the deficit and about the fact that the rich can better afford 38% than the poor can afford 25%.
And if the poor were actually paying a 25% rate then they would NOT be living in the US since the poor only pay at a 15% Federal rate (if they even pay income taxes)
Ok, Rhippie, if you want to get technical, I guess it's 22.65%, not 25%.
Let's get really technical....the poor pay 0% income tax!! Most of them are getting all of their taxes that were withheld refunded via the Earned Income Tax Credit or through the Child Tax Credit. In fact a great majority of them get back more than was withheld even factoring in the FICA/MEDICARE
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Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 5:03:44 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
2003 to 2006 federal tax revenues increase
Hmmm. Was that because of the tax cut?
Or was it because of a combination of the following:
Fed cuts rates to 1.25% to stimulate economy
GM offers 0% financing on cars
Record consumer debt
A 3% tax cut can't have enough of an impact to increase tax receipts by $650 billion. $2 trillion of consumer debt, on the other hand...
quote:
So it appears that cutting taxes DOES, in fact, raise revenues.
Truth is, there's no such thing as a free lunch. We didn't eat a free lunch from the tax cuts, we borrowed a lunch from record consumer and federal debt- and paying it back is going to be an expensive process.
The recovery between 2003 and 2006 happened because of record consumer borrowing- to the tune of $2 trillion- not because of a 10% tax cut on the rich. If you think that cutting taxes can increase revenues, I've got a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge for you.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/21/2008 5:15:03 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
2003 to 2006 federal tax revenues increase
Hmmm. Was that because of the tax cut?
Or was it because of a combination of the following:
Fed cuts rates to 1.25% to stimulate economy
GM offers 0% financing on cars
Record consumer debt
A 3% tax cut can't have enough of an impact to increase tax receipts by $650 billion. $2 trillion of consumer debt, on the other hand...
quote:
So it appears that cutting taxes DOES, in fact, raise revenues.
Truth is, there's no such thing as a free lunch. We didn't eat a free lunch from the tax cuts, we borrowed a lunch from record consumer and federal debt- and paying it back is going to be an expensive process.
The recovery between 2003 and 2006 happened because of record consumer borrowing- to the tune of $2 trillion- not because of a 10% tax cut on the rich. If you think that cutting taxes can increase revenues, I've got a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge for you.
Since when does debt add to the TAX revenue of the government? Personal tax payments to the government as well as corporate taxes went UP after the tax cuts. Personal tax payments going up even after a tax cut means that people are making even more money. You can't spin that. How does consumer borrowing up the TAX revenue to the government? How does federal debt add to the revenue? The fact is that tax revenue WENT UP and the government still continued to outspend what it made so even if your assertion that increased taxes would increase revenue there is no reason to believe it will change the federal debt at all.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 12:14:13 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Since when does debt add to the TAX revenue of the government? Personal tax payments to the government as well as corporate taxes went UP after the tax cuts.
Makes perfect sense. Remember that consumer discretionary purchases aren't tax deductable. Say a guy borrows $50K to buy a hummer. He registers no loss. GM registers a $15K profit. The lender registers $2K in net profit from accrued interest before he even pays a dime on the loan. Altogether, this activity generates $17K in tax revenues, and that's before you factor in GM's suppliers. So in other words, low interest rates- and a willingness to borrow- generate tax revenues. Lowering tax revenues in and of itself does not generate tax revenues.
quote:
Personal tax payments going up even after a tax cut means that people are making even more money. You can't spin that. How does consumer borrowing up the TAX revenue to the government? How does federal debt add to the revenue? The fact is that tax revenue WENT UP and the government still continued to outspend what it made so even if your assertion that increased taxes would increase revenue there is no reason to believe it will change the federal debt at all.
In the same way that the economy tends to do better under Democrats, correlation does not equal causation. Using the same logic you use, I could say that the last time we elected a Democrat, we got a tech boom and created an enormous number of white-collar and blue-collar jobs (never mind the fact that the internet was born as a line item in our defense budget), and that we need high taxes to have another internet boom.
Truth is that incomes went up from 2003-2006 because people borrowed, borrowed, and borrowed. So did our government. When you borrow money, the economy tends to get a little over-inflated, as it did from 2003-2006. Now we have to get back to a more solid economy, and that means the government needs to cut the deficit while consumers also start working on saving more. We can either have an economy that consists of a fancy facade and a bunch of fluff inside- sort of like the couple that got a sub-prime loan to buy their McMansion and bought their Hummer on credit, or we can try to be an economy that's the real deal- one that has a reasonable amount of consumer and corporate debt. Consumers are working to pay down their debt- maybe it's time for government to do its part as well.
There's only so much liberal spending that we can cut (it's been getting cut for the past eight years), but there's a lot of stuff that we can cut from the defense budget and financial bail-out budget. We can also raise maximum marginal tax rates back to their historical equilibrium- about 40%. And if we are going to go along with these bail-outs, we should at least roll back some of the deregulation that got us into this mess in the first place.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/22/2008 12:49:11 AM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 6:01:37 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Consumers are working to pay down their debt- maybe it's time for government to do its part as well.
I agree, but that doesn't mean stealing more money from me, that means cutting spending to the bone.
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There's only so much liberal spending that we can cut (it's been getting cut for the past eight years), but there's a lot of stuff that we can cut from the defense budget and financial bail-out budget.
Defense is one thing that is actually the job of the federal government. Not ensuring retirement, not feeding people who won't work, not funding studies, not memorials, not earmarks, not pork barrell spending, do you get my point. There shouldn't even be a financial bail out budget, not for citizens, not for corporations.
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We can also raise maximum marginal tax rates back to their historical equilibrium- about 40%.
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, giving more money to the government is like giving crack to an addict, it will lead to more spending and more deficit. We the people need to stand up and demand that our government stop spending wastefully, we need to disband about 75% of the agencies that are little more than places for political cronies to make money and a name for themselves, and we need to stop whining with our hands out everytime life deals us a bad card. The only way that the deficit in this country will ever go away will be if we the people stop spending other peoples money filtered through the pockets of government.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 9:43:45 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 220
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quote:
If you think that cutting taxes can increase revenues, I've got a great deal on the Brooklyn Bridge for you
Well, if Biden's theory is true, that paying taxes is so patriotic, why are there so many un-patriotic folks out there, that pay no tax to the Govt?
Because of deductions, exemptions, yada, yada, many get all of their money paid in, back(see my post#57). I don't think a tax cut is the answer, but neither is a tax increase, either. Fedzilla(I like that name), must get their house in order, I'll take care of mine, thank you.
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 9:45:40 AM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
Since when does debt add to the TAX revenue of the government? Personal tax payments to the government as well as corporate taxes went UP after the tax cuts.
Makes perfect sense. Remember that consumer discretionary purchases aren't tax deductable. Say a guy borrows $50K to buy a hummer. He registers no loss. GM registers a $15K profit. The lender registers $2K in net profit from accrued interest before he even pays a dime on the loan. Altogether, this activity generates $17K in tax revenues, and that's before you factor in GM's suppliers. So in other words, low interest rates- and a willingness to borrow- generate tax revenues. Lowering tax revenues in and of itself does not generate tax revenues.
While I am tempted to agree that " Lowering tax revenues in and of itself does not generate tax revenues. " I think you are missing the "big" picture. When individuals are allowed to keep more of their money then they have more to spend or to save for the future.
Using your illustration if I do not have to give the money to the government then I can afford the payment on the Hummer. This has the effect of generating increased revenue for both the dealer and GM which have to pay taxes on the additional revenues and also have to hire more employees to deal with the additional demand for the product. These employees are also paying taxes so that the end result of a tax cut is greater tax revenues.
If the taxpayer chooses to save the money then it becomes available for people to borrow which has the same result as that of their buying goods and services ie increased demand which results in increased production which has the resultant increase in employment and additional tax revenues. All of which are the result of a tax cut.
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 12:00:32 PM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1492
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Joe Biden is a complete and utter buffoon. Stupid statements are his trademark.
The fact that Obama chose him, an ultimate entrenched Washington insider, proves that he is NOT the "change" candidate
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 1:06:58 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
I agree, but that doesn't mean stealing more money from me, that means cutting spending to the bone.
Taxes were higher under Reagan/Bush I. Are you really calling Reagan a thief? The fact is that tax rates need to fluctuate a bit. Fluctuating means going both down and up. Since taxes are at historical lows, it doesn't make any sense to it "stealing" to get them back up to equilibrium.
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Defense is one thing that is actually the job of the federal government. Not ensuring retirement, not feeding people who won't work, not funding studies, not memorials, not earmarks, not pork barrell spending, do you get my point. There shouldn't even be a financial bail out budget, not for citizens, not for corporations.
How about subsidies for oil companies? And what about social security? I think it makes sense to limit SocSec and Medicare's size and scope (while keeping its risk minimized) with later retirement dates, phase-ins, and copayments, but I don't think it's fair to eliminate them.
quote:
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG, giving more money to the government is like giving crack to an addict, it will lead to more spending and more deficit. We the people need to stand up and demand that our government stop spending wastefully, we need to disband about 75% of the agencies that are little more than places for political cronies to make money and a name for themselves, and we need to stop whining with our hands out everytime life deals us a bad card. The only way that the deficit in this country will ever go away will be if we the people stop spending other peoples money filtered through the pockets of government.
Actually, it's more like helping someone who's up to their eyeballs in credit card debt find a job. Yes, we do need to cut spending. In the meantime, though, the government will either decide to pay down the debt through higher taxes or more inflation. Our country will be better off if it picks higher taxes over inflation.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 1:15:37 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
While I am tempted to agree that " Lowering tax revenues in and of itself does not generate tax revenues. " I think you are missing the "big" picture. When individuals are allowed to keep more of their money then they have more to spend or to save for the future.
Using your illustration if I do not have to give the money to the government then I can afford the payment on the Hummer. This has the effect of generating increased revenue for both the dealer and GM which have to pay taxes on the additional revenues and also have to hire more employees to deal with the additional demand for the product. These employees are also paying taxes so that the end result of a tax cut is greater tax revenues.
But the Hummer hasn't been paid for. For the next five years, you're paying down the debt on that Hummer, and other than interest, nobody's recognizing any profits.
quote:
If the taxpayer chooses to save the money then it becomes available for people to borrow which has the same result as that of their buying goods and services ie increased demand which results in increased production which has the resultant increase in employment and additional tax revenues. All of which are the result of a tax cut.
But the economic impact is different from us borrowing the money from China. If people save money, and that money becomes available for China to borrow, then great. We can temporarily inflate China's economy and enjoy the interest payments as they spend the next several years with a stagflationary economy while paying off that loan.
So your model might have some bearing on a one-country economy (although I would still argue that we'd need to have banks maintain reserve ratios- money set aside for withdrawals- at a certain level to keep the whole system stable), but it certainly doesn't work when we have foreign lending. China's lent us a lot over the past few years, and that has been part of the reason we've had this economic recovery without an actual recovery in terms of families' balance sheets.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 1:48:48 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1325
Joined: 8/13/2005
From: Georgia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
While I am tempted to agree that " Lowering tax revenues in and of itself does not generate tax revenues. " I think you are missing the "big" picture. When individuals are allowed to keep more of their money then they have more to spend or to save for the future.
Using your illustration if I do not have to give the money to the government then I can afford the payment on the Hummer. This has the effect of generating increased revenue for both the dealer and GM which have to pay taxes on the additional revenues and also have to hire more employees to deal with the additional demand for the product. These employees are also paying taxes so that the end result of a tax cut is greater tax revenues.
But the Hummer hasn't been paid for. For the next five years, you're paying down the debt on that Hummer, and other than interest, nobody's recognizing any profits.
quote:
If the taxpayer chooses to save the money then it becomes available for people to borrow which has the same result as that of their buying goods and services ie increased demand which results in increased production which has the resultant increase in employment and additional tax revenues. All of which are the result of a tax cut.
But the economic impact is different from us borrowing the money from China. If people save money, and that money becomes available for China to borrow, then great. We can temporarily inflate China's economy and enjoy the interest payments as they spend the next several years with a stagflationary economy while paying off that loan.
So your model might have some bearing on a one-country economy (although I would still argue that we'd need to have banks maintain reserve ratios- money set aside for withdrawals- at a certain level to keep the whole system stable), but it certainly doesn't work when we have foreign lending. China's lent us a lot over the past few years, and that has been part of the reason we've had this economic recovery without an actual recovery in terms of families' balance sheets.
Hey Blessedinnyc,
Did you know that Rhippie here is an expert in economics? He studied it in College then taught economics for 10 years at the collegiate level ... you could probably learn a bit from him. 
_____________________________
I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 3:48:49 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1954
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Psalms274
Hey Blessedinnyc,
Did you know that Rhippie here is an expert in economics? He studied it in College then taught economics for 10 years at the collegiate level ... you could probably learn a bit from him.
Sweet! We've got two econ/finance folks here. Actually, you might see me in the background on television every once in a while- I sit about thirty feet from our chief economist. The job of most people on my floor is to try and stay about two steps ahead of the economy. I still feel a bit more comfortable learning from a guy who's still a part-time econ professor at Columbia after thirty years of teaching, as well as the various folks who make a living staying up to date on the fed's foolishness, however.
As someone who works in credit, I get an especially interesting perspective on this. Apparently, people are now starting to bet there's about a 4% chance the Federal reserve defaults in the next ten years. Imagine that- people betting that the guys who own the printing press default. Now, if we raise taxes, that chance will probably go down- and the folks betting against the US will get hurt pretty badly.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 3:58:30 PM
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Psalms274
Posts: 1325
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From: Georgia
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quote:
As someone who works in credit, I get an especially interesting perspective on this. Apparently, people are now starting to bet there's about a 4% chance the Federal reserve defaults in the next ten years. Imagine that- people betting that the guys who own the printing press default. Now, if we raise taxes, that chance will probably go down- and the folks betting against the US will get hurt pretty badly.
Well knowing what you know ... surely you have looked at the historical data (excluding the anomaly of the Clinton years since there are too many contributing factors that had nothing to do with his administration at the time that came into play) that shows that we do indeed bring in more tax revenues when the people keep their money and are free to spend it ... boosting both the economy and the tax revenues from the people selling those things that have been bought? I am talking about the years before everything was placed on credit.
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I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ.
< Linus w/ a friends baby!
http://piswa.blogspot.com/
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/22/2008 4:29:07 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Taxes were higher under Reagan/Bush I. Are you really calling Reagan a thief? The fact is that tax rates need to fluctuate a bit. Fluctuating means going both down and up. Since taxes are at historical lows, it doesn't make any sense to it "stealing" to get them back up to equilibrium.
Taking more money from the populace to pay off debt that they created would be stealing in my book.
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How about subsidies for oil companies? And what about social security? I think it makes sense to limit SocSec and Medicare's size and scope (while keeping its risk minimized) with later retirement dates, phase-ins, and copayments, but I don't think it's fair to eliminate them.
It is not the job of government to ensure either health care or retirement income for ANYONE. It is not my fault nor the fault of most of the taxpaying public that there are many who have foresaken a strong family and community structure leaving them to rely on the government for sustenance when they won't or can no longer work. I freely give of my own time and money to help the poor then on top of that i have to pay for the government to filter even more of my money through dozens of bloated programs which skim overhead before distributing penny's on the dollar to the people that would be better served by the Church and the community.
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Actually, it's more like helping someone who's up to their eyeballs in credit card debt find a job. Yes, we do need to cut spending. In the meantime, though, the government will either decide to pay down the debt through higher taxes or more inflation. Our country will be better off if it picks higher taxes over inflation.
You have it so backwards, if we give the government more money THEY WILL SPEND IT. History backs this. The only way to relieve the national debt is immediate and deep cuts to entitlement programs, pork barrel projects, subsidies, and bloated beauracricies that no one can figure out the purpose of. Until the government shrinks and concentrates on trade, infrastructure, and defense exclusively we will never see a reduction to the national debt.
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