RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patriotic duty"
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 5:47:09 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Let me just make it clear that I think a tax hike- albeit painful- puts us in a better situation without borrowing against the future. Even if it only delays the inevitable- as jlp claims- it is still an incremental improvement.
All a tax hike accomplishes is ensuring that when we do have to face the problem the dollar amounts will be astronomically higher and there will be less to take in an attempt to fix it then since we will have been bleeding people dry the whole time. Cutting spending NOW is the ONLY way to fix the problem. YOU CAN NOT OUTEARN STUPID FISCAL DECISIONS.
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Likewise, even if there is no possible way to avoid BK and/or hyper-inflation, it still makes sense to raise taxes; our kids will be in a better position, same with their kids.
So you advocate taking more money from us even if the money we have will continue to be worth less, you must be kidding. That wouldn't help our kids, that would leave our kids with less.
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Me? I'm cautiously optimistic. I think we can pay down the debt and avoid "the inevitable" altogether.
NOT if we don't cut spending.
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However, if we aren't even willing to consider working on an incremental improvement in our nation's balance sheet, we're in much deeper trouble than I thought. Even if you think we can't solve the problem without cutting spending, this move at least buys us time. It also helps show voters that all of this government spending has a cost that accrues to them.
I am willing to consider an ACTUAL solution by cutting spending. Raising taxes without cutting spending leaves us in a much worse position.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 5:49:32 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The problem started 20 years ago when budget deficits ballooned after *SUPRISE* we cut taxes!
You still fail to address the fact that since the Bush tax cuts federal revenues have steadily increased (for this discussion i dont' care why), yet throughout that time the spending has continued to increase and increased with the president before and the one before. Somehow you think this will change if just give them more money.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 6:11:28 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1953
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
All a tax hike accomplishes is ensuring that when we do have to face the problem the dollar amounts will be astronomically higher and there will be less to take in an attempt to fix it then since we will have been bleeding people dry the whole time. Cutting spending NOW is the ONLY way to fix the problem. YOU CAN NOT OUTEARN STUPID FISCAL DECISIONS.
Do you think that irresponsible lawmakers care about tax revenues when they make spending decisions? Do they care if their $700 Billion program will be funded by debt or taxes?
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So you advocate taking more money from us even if the money we have will continue to be worth less, you must be kidding. That wouldn't help our kids, that would leave our kids with less.
If we take more money from us, that reduces the supply of dollars; it's the opposite of what the fed is doing now; turning on the printing press. This means the dollar will be worth more; we won't have to resort to hyperinflation.
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I am willing to consider an ACTUAL solution by cutting spending. Raising taxes without cutting spending leaves us in a much worse position.
Here's the thing, though. A smaller percentage of our GDP goes to federal spending (not just taxes) than it did under Reagan, Eisenhower, and Nixon:
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/outlays-per-gdp.php
In recent history- at least over the past 50 years, the only thing that's really out of whack is tax revenues, which are at historical lows.
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You still fail to address the fact that since the Bush tax cuts federal revenues have steadily increased (for this discussion i dont' care why), yet throughout that time the spending has continued to increase and increased with the president before and the one before. Somehow you think this will change if just give them more money.
Well, correlation does not equal causation. One thing to note is that the fed also lowered interest rates during this time, which boosted the economy (and maybe even caused it to overheat.) There may be a correlation between low taxes and higher tax revenues, but it has everything to do with interest rates. Interest rates tend to go down when the the feds are trying to boost the economy; tax cuts as economic stimuli also tend to happen when the feds are trying to boost the economy.
Understanding "causal relationships" can be a little confusing, so let me simplify: I tend to go for a walk before it rains- because I'm worried I won't be able to get exercise later. Does this mean I can make it rain? Republicans tend to cut taxes when the economy is bottomed out right at the same time the fed is lowering interest rates. Does this make the tax cuts responsible for the $2 Trillion in consumer borrowing that happened because of lower interest rates and resulted in increased tax revenues?
Finally, again, I'll admit that lowering capital gains taxes does cause a temporary bump in tax revenues. If it's 2009 and capital gains taxes are 15% and I hear that capital gains taxes will get lowered to 10% in 2010, I'm going to try and wait until 2010 to sell- and pay taxes at 10% in 2010.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/23/2008 6:33:42 PM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 6:38:26 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2913
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
In recent history- at least over the past 50 years, the only thing that's really out of whack is tax revenues, which are at historical lows.
Don't forget that it's also lower than nearly all the major developed countries despite the fact that we spend a ton of defense money to keep many of them safe. Our taxes are not all that high by either historical or international standards.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 8:42:12 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
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ORIGINAL: rhippie
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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Well, pushing it further out is better than having it today. My view is that there almost always needs to be a certain amount of pain to improve any situation, and since higher taxes make things more painful, we can at the very least improve things by pushing them further out- and if we're lucky, we may even buy ourselves enough time to talk about cutting spending.
This (the highlighted section) has been the problem for at least the past 20 years! NO ONE WANTS TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEM! Let the next generation deal with it as long as I can get mine now!!
Don't you realize that if the problem had been dealt with 20 years ago it would have been less painful? If we push it off another 20 years we simply magnify the impact the fix has.
Let me just make it clear that I think a tax hike- albeit painful- puts us in a better situation without borrowing against the future. Even if it only delays the inevitable- as jlp claims- it is still an incremental improvement.
Eventually, Americans won't be driving cars that run on gasoline. One might argue that we should stop drilling new oil and stop making hybrid cars, because "we are only giving crack to an addict". Whether or not this is true, most people would agree that cars that run on less gas- and drilling more oil- are an incremental improvement on our situation and push back the date that we run out of oil. Even if there is no possible way to avoid running out of oil, it still makes sense to make more hybrids. Likewise, even if there is no possible way to avoid BK and/or hyper-inflation, it still makes sense to raise taxes; our kids will be in a better position, same with their kids.
Me? I'm cautiously optimistic. I think we can pay down the debt and avoid "the inevitable" altogether. However, if we aren't even willing to consider working on an incremental improvement in our nation's balance sheet, we're in much deeper trouble than I thought. Even if you think we can't solve the problem without cutting spending, this move at least buys us time. It also helps show voters that all of this government spending has a cost that accrues to them.
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Don't you realize that if the problem had been dealt with 20 years ago it would have been less painful? If we push it off another 20 years we simply magnify the impact the fix has.
The problem started 20 years ago when budget deficits ballooned after *SUPRISE* we cut taxes!
Actually the budget deficits ballooned because when the tax cuts took place there was more tax revenue being generated. This led Congress to think that they could spend the money instead of using the additional revenues to pay down the debt and live within a balanced budget.\;kinda like what a lot of people do when they get a raise....increase the spending to compensate for the extra money instead of paying down the credit card!
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 8:47:00 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Do you think that irresponsible lawmakers care about tax revenues when they make spending decisions? Do they care if their $700 Billion program will be funded by debt or taxes?
So they don't care about what revenues are when they spend but in your infinite wisdom we should give them more money, STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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In recent history- at least over the past 50 years, the only thing that's really out of whack is tax revenues, which are at historical lows.
There is nothing wrong with low taxes, there is something wrong with high spending though, you have it completely backwards.
Oh and your causation arguement still doesn't address my point. I will spell it out for you again. The federal revenue has gone up, I DON'T CARE WHY, yet the deficit has continued to go up. The government outspends it's income, always has and until we make it always will.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 8:48:07 PM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
Actually the budget deficits ballooned because when the tax cuts took place there was more tax revenue being generated. This led Congress to think that they could spend the money instead of using the additional revenues to pay down the debt and live within a balanced budget.\;kinda like what a lot of people do when they get a raise....increase the spending to compensate for the extra money instead of paying down the credit card!
At least someone gets it.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 9:11:51 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_ The federal revenue has gone up, I DON'T CARE WHY, yet the deficit has continued to go up.
Maybe you should care why.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 9:18:03 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1953
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
Actually the budget deficits ballooned because when the tax cuts took place there was more tax revenue being generated. This led Congress to think that they could spend the money instead of using the additional revenues to pay down the debt and live within a balanced budget.\;kinda like what a lot of people do when they get a raise....increase the spending to compensate for the extra money instead of paying down the credit card!
This may be true, but domestic discretionary spending didn't even keep up with inflation while military spending more than doubled under Reagan:
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/comp-fed-outlays.php
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
< Message edited by blessedinnyc -- 9/23/2008 9:24:55 PM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/23/2008 9:24:00 PM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1953
Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
So they don't care about what revenues are when they spend but in your infinite wisdom we should give them more money, STUPID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't have infinite wisdom, but Congress does have infinite capacity to borrow. They're going to spend whether we give them money or not- the only question is whether we let them tax and spend or let them borrow and spend.
I don't think you understand that Congress is going to take money from you for spending whether it taxes you or not- it can always borrow on your behalf.
Also, please don't use silly and childish ad-hominems when you either don't understand or choose to ignore the big picture.
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There is nothing wrong with low taxes, there is something wrong with high spending though, you have it completely backwards.
There's something wrong with low taxes when there are high deficits,
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Oh and your causation arguement still doesn't address my point. I will spell it out for you again. The federal revenue has gone up, I DON'T CARE WHY, yet the deficit has continued to go up. The government outspends it's income, always has and until we make it always will.
Just watch how the government responds- and what happens to that revenue- when interest rates go up.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 5:35:46 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_ The federal revenue has gone up, I DON'T CARE WHY, yet the deficit has continued to go up.
Maybe you should care why.
-Dan.
For the point i was making it doesn't matter, that is why i said it that way. In the first post i stated it more clearly but the answer i got was all about why the revenues went up which completely ignored my actual point.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 5:40:39 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
I don't have infinite wisdom, but Congress does have infinite capacity to borrow. They're going to spend whether we give them money or not- the only question is whether we let them tax and spend or let them borrow and spend.
I don't think you understand that Congress is going to take money from you for spending whether it taxes you or not- it can always borrow on your behalf.
Also, please don't use silly and childish ad-hominems when you either don't understand or choose to ignore the big picture.
WE THE PEOPLE have the power to stop the spending WE just won't and people who think like you are the reason that the deficit is so high. It doesn't matter if we give them more, they will still outspend their revenues and have to borrow. So they borrow less for a little while they are still going to borrow some and the deficit will still go up, until WE take responsibility and fix the real mess which is spending. Let me be completely clear, the government outspend their revenues and will have to borrow and i don't care if it is just a little it still makes matters worse. If the government had any care in the world for reducing the deficit they would cut spending now, not wait on you to send them more money. Since it is evident that they don't care one iota for the deficit your idea of sending them money fixes nothing.
It seems that i am the only one of this pair that does understand the big picture. As even you admitted earlier, increasing taxes may well just push out the inevitable while what propose actually fixes the real problem.
< Message edited by _jjp_ -- 9/24/2008 6:11:51 AM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 5:42:25 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 9:48:39 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1953
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quote:
WE THE PEOPLE have the power to stop the spending WE just won't and people who think like you are the reason that the deficit is so high. It doesn't matter if we give them more, they will still outspend their revenues and have to borrow. So they borrow less for a little while they are still going to borrow some and the deficit will still go up, until WE take responsibility and fix the real mess which is spending. Let me be completely clear, the government outspend their revenues and will have to borrow and i don't care if it is just a little it still makes matters worse. If the government had any care in the world for reducing the deficit they would cut spending now, not wait on you to send them more money. Since it is evident that they don't care one iota for the deficit your idea of sending them money fixes nothing.
Actually, federal spending is at historical equilibrium (relative to GDP), in spite of the fact that defense spending is up.
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It seems that i am the only one of this pair that does understand the big picture. As even you admitted earlier, increasing taxes may well just push out the inevitable while what propose actually fixes the real problem.
If you have credit card debt, coming up with more money to help pay it down may very well only delay the inevitable bankruptcy- but at least it does something. I'm saying that even if you are going to have a defeatist attitude about this, higher taxes still improves the situation.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 12:12:56 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
Actually, federal spending is at historical equilibrium (relative to GDP), in spite of the fact that defense spending is up.
And historically we have spent ourselves to near bankruptcy and it must stop. What we need is to stop spending, short of that we are doomed even if we listen to you and take more money from people.
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If you have credit card debt, coming up with more money to help pay it down may very well only delay the inevitable bankruptcy- but at least it does something. I'm saying that even if you are going to have a defeatist attitude about this, higher taxes still improves the situation.
You continue to miss the point, i dont' care how much money you have coming that you COULD put toward your debt, if you don't stop spending your debt still goes up if for no other reason than the interest on the debt you have. I am not proposing that we don't just do something but that we actually cure the disease. Raising taxes only temprorarily masks the symptoms. Higher taxes doesn't improve the situation, it leaves people with less money and without cuts in spending leaves us in the exact same boat just with less personal money. Getting rid of spendy politicians is the ONLY way to fix the problems. Taking care of ourselves instead of expecting Uncle Sam to do it is the only way to fix the problem.
For now taking more money from the "evil" rich will mask the problem but without cuts in spending that will never be enough so they will take more or borrow more and one day there won't be enough left in the pockets of the "fat cats" and you too will pay. The reason the raise taxes arguement is so popular with many is that many don't pay taxes at all, come march they get a nice fat check back and go on about their business. To these people taxing the "rich" is a good idea because it affects them not at all so it seems like a great idea to just use the rich folks money to continue to pay for their services and to ensure that they get that check back each year all the while not doing a single thing to affect the federal debt.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 3:22:18 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
Actually the budget deficits ballooned because when the tax cuts took place there was more tax revenue being generated. This led Congress to think that they could spend the money instead of using the additional revenues to pay down the debt and live within a balanced budget.\;kinda like what a lot of people do when they get a raise....increase the spending to compensate for the extra money instead of paying down the credit card!
This may be true, but domestic discretionary spending didn't even keep up with inflation while military spending more than doubled under Reagan:
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/comp-fed-outlays.php
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
Why is it that when you discuss spending people always want to point to the increase in military spending as if that is the only item inthe budget that went up? EVERYTHING WENT UP!!! Just because it did not keep pace with inflation (which is a bogus calculation, imo) doesn't mean that actual dollars spent did not increase.
BTW nice avoidance of my point which is that if you give Congress more money they will spend it....it is irrelevant what they spend it on in my never to be considered humble opinion. You however seem to think that it is only a problem because the Republicans were in control and spent it on the military; if the Democrats had been in control and spent it on "domestic" issues it would not make any difference.
They still spent the money instead of paying down the debt!!
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 3:25:49 PM
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rhippie
Posts: 628
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Rich The Hippie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
If you have credit card debt, coming up with more money to help pay it down may very well only delay the inevitable bankruptcy- but at least it does something. I'm saying that even if you are going to have a defeatist attitude about this, higher taxes still improves the situation.
AQnd my point is that it makes the situation worse in the long run because now you have compounded the debt by borrowing money to pay the interest on the debt! It's utterly assinine and needs to be stopped!
_____________________________
Stand up for what's right....even if you're standing alone
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 7:27:02 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1961
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
Why is it that when you discuss spending people always want to point to the increase in military spending as if that is the only item inthe budget that went up? EVERYTHING WENT UP!!! Just because it did not keep pace with inflation (which is a bogus calculation, imo) doesn't mean that actual dollars spent did not increase.
It's a counter to the notion that we're so far in the hole because we spend all of our money on entitlement programs - that position completely ignores the ramifications of a large defense budget.
-Dan.
_____________________________
Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/24/2008 7:34:25 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
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quote:
ORIGINAL: iluvatar
quote:
ORIGINAL: rhippie
Why is it that when you discuss spending people always want to point to the increase in military spending as if that is the only item inthe budget that went up? EVERYTHING WENT UP!!! Just because it did not keep pace with inflation (which is a bogus calculation, imo) doesn't mean that actual dollars spent did not increase.
It's a counter to the notion that we're so far in the hole because we spend all of our money on entitlement programs - that position completely ignores the ramifications of a large defense budget.
-Dan.
Defense spending is an actual job of the US government though so there is a huge difference.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/28/2008 12:59:13 PM
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upNORTder
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/29/2008 12:31:19 AM
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ljmac
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
Charity comes from your own pocket. So-called entitlement programs are funded by taking money from other people.
BO is expanding entitlements. For one, he thinks that if you want a dead baby, you're entitled to one. If the baby accidentally survived the abortion, then we'll put it on a shelf and make it die.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/29/2008 1:38:59 AM
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zamdad
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I saw our tax dollars at work again tonight. I responded to a call of an out of control juvenile. During the event I learned that the "babysitter" was a taxpayer funded personal care attendant. The "babysitter" was watching the kids while mom is supposed to be doing constructive things with her time. Things like doctor's appointments, rehab, tending to business to make the home function properly. The "babysitter" accused mom of being at the bar yesterday (which she was according to the other cop), but mom says she was on a motorcycle rally. Why are my tax dollars funding a PCA so that mom can ride on a motorcycle?
I'm fed up with entitlement programs. The goal is never reached. We simply acquire another generation of folks dependant on the government to get by. Entitlement programs eliminate initiative and create more problems than they solve.
Let's get the government out of the discipleship busines and get us, the church, doing what we're suposed to do.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/29/2008 5:15:16 AM
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_jjp_
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
The gospel calls for us to take care of the less advantaged, not for us to shirk that duty and allow a portion of the money to be spent on overhead then the rest of it given in our name. We should be out there feeding the poor NOT THE GOVERNMENT
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/29/2008 6:34:58 AM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 220
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If paying taxes is so patriotic, why is it 43 percent of the U.S., are so unpatriotic, and pay no taxes?
Everyone should have to pay something, and the government agrees with me(that's why there's a lottery in just about every state-welfare tax), and even God told the Israelites, that no one will appear before him empty-handed(Ex 23:14-16), so why not go to a flat percentage, for all?
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:30:03 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
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ORIGINAL: upNORTder
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ORIGINAL: _jjp_
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ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
Charity comes from your own pocket. So-called entitlement programs are funded by taking money from other people.
BO is expanding entitlements. For one, he thinks that if you want a dead baby, you're entitled to one. If the baby accidentally survived the abortion, then we'll put it on a shelf and make it die.
If our government is run by Christians, then the government should show Christian values in what it does, as it does with "entitlements".
As for abortion, why haven't republicans introduced an amendment to the constitution to ban it? They have had majorities in the house and senate, I did not see them even try.
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