RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patriotic duty"
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:32:59 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
I saw our tax dollars at work again tonight. I responded to a call of an out of control juvenile. During the event I learned that the "babysitter" was a taxpayer funded personal care attendant. The "babysitter" was watching the kids while mom is supposed to be doing constructive things with her time. Things like doctor's appointments, rehab, tending to business to make the home function properly. The "babysitter" accused mom of being at the bar yesterday (which she was according to the other cop), but mom says she was on a motorcycle rally. Why are my tax dollars funding a PCA so that mom can ride on a motorcycle?
I'm fed up with entitlement programs. The goal is never reached. We simply acquire another generation of folks dependant on the government to get by. Entitlement programs eliminate initiative and create more problems than they solve.
Let's get the government out of the discipleship busines and get us, the church, doing what we're suposed to do.
Maybe if conservatives would run the programs right when they are in power (as now) they would not have the problems that they do.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:40:04 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
The gospel calls for us to take care of the less advantaged, not for us to shirk that duty and allow a portion of the money to be spent on overhead then the rest of it given in our name. We should be out there feeding the poor NOT THE GOVERNMENT
Since America is primarily a Christian country, it should reflect Christian values, such as charity. Run properly, the government can be much more efficient at distributing aid. Does who they help upset you?
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:47:59 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
If paying taxes is so patriotic, why is it 43 percent of the U.S., are so unpatriotic, and pay no taxes?
Everyone should have to pay something, and the government agrees with me(that's why there's a lottery in just about every state-welfare tax), and even God told the Israelites, that no one will appear before him empty-handed(Ex 23:14-16), so why not go to a flat percentage, for all?
Their are many other taxes that all people pay- sales tax, property tax, fuel tax etc. We should go back to what worked for republican president Eisenhower, a 91% top tax rate.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:57:10 AM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
Charity comes from your own pocket. So-called entitlement programs are funded by taking money from other people.
BO is expanding entitlements. For one, he thinks that if you want a dead baby, you're entitled to one. If the baby accidentally survived the abortion, then we'll put it on a shelf and make it die.
If our government is run by Christians, then the government should show Christian values in what it does, as it does with "entitlements".
As for abortion, why haven't republicans introduced an amendment to the constitution to ban it? They have had majorities in the house and senate, I did not see them even try.
Taking someone's wages is unchristian.
Republicans have never had majorities to do what you suggest. It takes 2/3rd to amend the Constitution.
We need less charity with other people's money and more charity for innocent children.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 1:31:35 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
Charity comes from your own pocket. So-called entitlement programs are funded by taking money from other people.
BO is expanding entitlements. For one, he thinks that if you want a dead baby, you're entitled to one. If the baby accidentally survived the abortion, then we'll put it on a shelf and make it die.
If our government is run by Christians, then the government should show Christian values in what it does, as it does with "entitlements".
As for abortion, why haven't republicans introduced an amendment to the constitution to ban it? They have had majorities in the house and senate, I did not see them even try.
Taking someone's wages is unchristian.
Republicans have never had majorities to do what you suggest. It takes 2/3rd to amend the Constitution.
We need less charity with other people's money and more charity for innocent children.
Matthew 22:15-22 (New International Version)
Paying Taxes to Caesar
15Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
21"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 2:14:09 AM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Since America is primarily a Christian country, it should reflect Christian values, such as charity. Run properly, the government can be much more efficient at distributing aid. Does who they help upset you?
The mandate to help the poor is not a mandate to government, it is a call to the Church (we individuals) to help the poor. Excuse me if I take that responsibility seriously and don't feel that someone else (the government) needs to do it for me. I am not a hands off Christian. I don't sit around all high and mighty because I pay taxes so uncle sam can distribute it to the poor, who cares if they build a couple of libraries in rich neighborhoods named after senators with some of the money. The government distributing my money will always be less efficient than me doing it myself since they have overhead to cover. And your last accusation is you simply grasping at straws. I spend my own personal time among the poorest of poor and the homeless, addicted, and detitute doing my Christian duty instead of sitting at home attempting to insult others and feeling self righteous because i pay taxes. If you truly wanted to help the poor you would see that bloated government agencies are not the answer, we as individuals are. It is quite frankly a tiring arguement when i talk to big government folks who try to make me out to be uncaring because I don't think the government should be in the business of charity, because I think that is my own personal responsibility. I will not be brow beaten into submission by your hinting that i am racist/classist/whateverist.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 10:52:09 AM
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upNORTder
Posts: 219
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Since America is primarily a Christian country, it should reflect Christian values, such as charity. Run properly, the government can be much more efficient at distributing aid. Does who they help upset you?
The mandate to help the poor is not a mandate to government, it is a call to the Church (we individuals) to help the poor. Excuse me if I take that responsibility seriously and don't feel that someone else (the government) needs to do it for me. I am not a hands off Christian. I don't sit around all high and mighty because I pay taxes so uncle sam can distribute it to the poor, who cares if they build a couple of libraries in rich neighborhoods named after senators with some of the money. The government distributing my money will always be less efficient than me doing it myself since they have overhead to cover. And your last accusation is you simply grasping at straws. I spend my own personal time among the poorest of poor and the homeless, addicted, and detitute doing my Christian duty instead of sitting at home attempting to insult others and feeling self righteous because i pay taxes. If you truly wanted to help the poor you would see that bloated government agencies are not the answer, we as individuals are. It is quite frankly a tiring arguement when i talk to big government folks who try to make me out to be uncaring because I don't think the government should be in the business of charity, because I think that is my own personal responsibility. I will not be brow beaten into submission by your hinting that i am racist/classist/whateverist.
Before government assisstance, many poor and elderly people starved in this country. Churches were not able to take care of all who needed help. I don't think that they could help enough people today if all government aid programs stopped.
Can you prove the amount of waste in current programs?
As for who government aid helps, I've met more than a few people that just don't like who it helps.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 11:20:24 AM
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blessedinnyc
Posts: 1953
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
The mandate to help the poor is not a mandate to government, it is a call to the Church (we individuals) to help the poor. Excuse me if I take that responsibility seriously and don't feel that someone else (the government) needs to do it for me.
It is a collective responsibility to the poor. The reason the government has to do it is because the church doesn't. If you want the government to stop doing it, get the entire church- at least in America- to help the poor.
quote:
I am not a hands off Christian. I don't sit around all high and mighty because I pay taxes so uncle sam can distribute it to the poor, who cares if they build a couple of libraries in rich neighborhoods named after senators with some of the money. The government distributing my money will always be less efficient than me doing it myself since they have overhead to cover. And your last accusation is you simply grasping at straws. I spend my own personal time among the poorest of poor and the homeless, addicted, and detitute doing my Christian duty instead of sitting at home attempting to insult others and feeling self righteous because i pay taxes.
I knew you hated taxes, but I didn't know you took taxes so personally.
quote:
If you truly wanted to help the poor you would see that bloated government agencies are not the answer, we as individuals are. It is quite frankly a tiring arguement when i talk to big government folks who try to make me out to be uncaring because I don't think the government should be in the business of charity, because I think that is my own personal responsibility. I will not be brow beaten into submission by your hinting that i am racist/classist/whateverist.
Frankly, I don't think big government should be in the business of making war, bailing out financial institutions, or paying debt service. These are some of the biggest items on the federal government's bill- not welfare. These programs amount to less than 2% of GDP or less than 5% of your taxes. I don't know about you, but this is a small amount compared to my discretionary charitable giving.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:13:59 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
The reason Congress was spending all of this money wasn't welfare queens and polar bears- it was defense. Real domestic discretionary spending actually decreased while the deficit ballooned.
At least the defense spending achieved it's goal then was cut only to be replaced with entitlements which accomplish nada but to buy votes.
How many would die if all "entitlement" programs were cut?
As a Christian, how do you justify this with the gospel?
Charity comes from your own pocket. So-called entitlement programs are funded by taking money from other people.
BO is expanding entitlements. For one, he thinks that if you want a dead baby, you're entitled to one. If the baby accidentally survived the abortion, then we'll put it on a shelf and make it die.
If our government is run by Christians, then the government should show Christian values in what it does, as it does with "entitlements".
As for abortion, why haven't republicans introduced an amendment to the constitution to ban it? They have had majorities in the house and senate, I did not see them even try.
Taking someone's wages is unchristian.
Republicans have never had majorities to do what you suggest. It takes 2/3rd to amend the Constitution.
We need less charity with other people's money and more charity for innocent children.
Matthew 22:15-22 (New International Version)
Paying Taxes to Caesar
15Then the Pharisees went out and laid plans to trap him in his words. 16They sent their disciples to him along with the Herodians. "Teacher," they said, "we know you are a man of integrity and that you teach the way of God in accordance with the truth. You aren't swayed by men, because you pay no attention to who they are. 17Tell us then, what is your opinion? Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
18But Jesus, knowing their evil intent, said, "You hypocrites, why are you trying to trap me? 19Show me the coin used for paying the tax." They brought him a denarius, 20and he asked them, "Whose portrait is this? And whose inscription?"
21"Caesar's," they replied.
Then he said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's."
22When they heard this, they were amazed. So they left him and went away.
Jesus also went to the cross voluntarily. That doesn't make crucifixion Christian.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:34:49 PM
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its_GO_time
Posts: 220
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
quote:
ORIGINAL: its_GO_time
If paying taxes is so patriotic, why is it 43 percent of the U.S., are so unpatriotic, and pay no taxes?
Everyone should have to pay something, and the government agrees with me(that's why there's a lottery in just about every state-welfare tax), and even God told the Israelites, that no one will appear before him empty-handed(Ex 23:14-16), so why not go to a flat percentage, for all?
Their are many other taxes that all people pay- sales tax, property tax, fuel tax etc. We should go back to what worked for republican president Eisenhower, a 91% top tax rate.
All those are also paid by the 57 percent, who are also paying income taxes. The way it is right now, everything is set up perfectly for class warfare; We have the "rich" who are supposed to pay for everything, and those who have no stake in the country's welfare, other than what they can get from it.
If everyone paid, there would be accountability demanded from everyone; Because 10, 20, cents out of my dollar, as well as Bill Gates' dollar, as well as the fry-cook at McD's dollar, went to Fedzilla, to fund bike trails, instead of bridge repairs, given to silly programs, instead of balancing the budget, etc.
_____________________________
"Few men desire liberty; most men wish only for a just master" - Sallust
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 12:47:21 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: upNORTder
Before government assisstance, many poor and elderly people starved in this country. Churches were not able to take care of all who needed help. I don't think that they could help enough people today if all government aid programs stopped.
Do you have any numbers to show that more people were starving before government programs? And i don't mean during the depression.
quote:
Can you prove the amount of waste in current programs?
So having my money go to the government via taxes which in itself requires an organization with people who must be paid, through an organization (at least one)which employs people who must be paid, then distributed by people who must be paid is less wasteful than me taking that money myself and using to feed the poor?
quote:
As for who government aid helps, I've met more than a few people that just don't like who it helps.
Well you would do well not to paint with such a wide brush.
< Message edited by _jjp_ -- 9/30/2008 1:03:36 PM >
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 1:03:01 PM
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_jjp_
Posts: 483
Joined: 10/25/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: blessedinnyc
quote:
ORIGINAL: _jjp_
The mandate to help the poor is not a mandate to government, it is a call to the Church (we individuals) to help the poor. Excuse me if I take that responsibility seriously and don't feel that someone else (the government) needs to do it for me.
It is a collective responsibility to the poor. The reason the government has to do it is because the church doesn't. If you want the government to stop doing it, get the entire church- at least in America- to help the poor.
I do my part to help the poor and to recruit others to do so also. Can you say the same or do you believe that you are now above that because you dont' mind paying taxes and not demanding that the money be wisely spent. Your only answer is to raise taxes. You do not call for the wastefulness in government to end. You just accept it as an inevitability.
quote:
quote:
I am not a hands off Christian. I don't sit around all high and mighty because I pay taxes so uncle sam can distribute it to the poor, who cares if they build a couple of libraries in rich neighborhoods named after senators with some of the money. The government distributing my money will always be less efficient than me doing it myself since they have overhead to cover. And your last accusation is you simply grasping at straws. I spend my own personal time among the poorest of poor and the homeless, addicted, and detitute doing my Christian duty instead of sitting at home attempting to insult others and feeling self righteous because i pay taxes.
I knew you hated taxes, but I didn't know you took taxes so personally.
So since i take my responsibility to the poor personally and find it loathesome that some have cast off their Christian duty and explained it away by saying "I pay taxes" then i take taxes personally? As i have stated many times in this thread, I have no problem paying taxes to a sufficient degree to operate the government in it's true functions, in which entitlement programs are not included.
quote:
Frankly, I don't think big government should be in the business of making war, bailing out financial institutions, or paying debt service. These are some of the biggest items on the federal government's bill- not welfare. These programs amount to less than 2% of GDP or less than 5% of your taxes. I don't know about you, but this is a small amount compared to my discretionary charitable giving.
I don't think that the government should be bailing out institutions either, funny how i am consistent across the board on that one since i don't think the government should bail out anyone. Waging war on the other hand is a function of government which we are obligated to cover the cost of, now you can disagree with the current war but you can not disagree that military spending is one government spending that is actually it's job.
Actually if you take into account unemployment, welfare, other human resources, and healthcare you are looking at a very sizable portion of the budget. welfare/unemployment/etc account for $ 324 billion While defense spending accounts for 481.4 billion. Remember now one of the actual jobs of government is defense. Now include social security at over $600 billion dollars in 2008 and we see that defense spending isn't even the highest in the budget. Medicare accounts for another $386 billion. So when we take a real look at it, defense spending, which is an actual government function, is far out spent in social programs.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 9:00:06 PM
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ljmac
Posts: 1378
Joined: 11/20/2006
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BO said in his O'Reilly interview that he didn't like paying taxes. I always knew he was unpatriotic.
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RE: :: Joe Biden | "Paying higher taxes a patrioti... - 9/30/2008 10:58:25 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ljmac
BO said in his O'Reilly interview that he didn't like paying taxes. I always knew he was unpatriotic.
He likes for everyone else to pay taxes so he can fund programs that create dependence.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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