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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 10:41:59 AM
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Sadey
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Deermousie, I know what you mean about your friend's wry agreement. The wonderful thing is that those are the people you can confess to and know that they will love you anyway. With friends like that you have a "We're in this Christian walk together". My friend and I often call to tell each other how God stepped on our toes and how he is dealing with us. The other one commiserates. Thats what friends are for. Also the best thing about being a woman and having women friends is that THEY LET YOU CHANGE YOUR MIND! in the middle of a conversation. To the original poster, I've thought about it a lot and I think some of the disagreement on here is due to the generational thing. Younger people I think,I could be wrong, talk about more personal things maybe than the older people do. I know I've had people ask me something about someone else and I'm horrified and always answer "I don't know, I didn't ask." So do you think that could be some of it?
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 11:07:39 AM
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Paymeister
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--- Why they don't accept your words Prov 12:15 says, "The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but a wise man is he who listens to counsel." Let's assume that you are correct in all of your assessments of your friends, that you indeed have words of grace and truth for them that they really need to hear, and that you're delivering them properly: if they're being fools, even if you're doing everything right they're not going to hear you because they think they're right and don't need to change. If any of those assumptions above are not justified it makes it worse, but the basic problem remains (they're not interested in changing). --- Further about fools: Prov 1:32 says, "For the waywardness of the naive will kill them, and the complacency of fools will destroy them." Prov 10:8 "The wise of heart will receive commands, but a babbling fool will be ruined." Prov 19:3 "The foolishness of man ruins his way, and his heart rages against the LORD." (so don't be surprised if they dump on you) Prov 23:9 "Do not speak in the hearing of a fool, for he will despise the wisdom of your words." Prov 29:11 "A fool always loses his temper, but a wise man holds it back." ---- Who to have as friends Regarding who to take as friends, if you're convinced they're rebellious and defiant of God, I would distance myself from them. Remain available in case they want to repent and seek you for advice (don't change your phone number), but I would "hang" with folks who will build you up instead of put you at risk. Prov 13:20 "He who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm." Prov 14:7 "Leave the presence of a fool, or you will not discern words of knowledge." ...and you may want to follow the church discipline route, too, though few churches have the backbone for it these days. ---- Matters of Conscience So far I've spoken of obvious sin (the sexual conquests, for example). However, if the issue is one of conscience or variation in interpretation of Scripture (in which both of you are consciously trying to live under the authority of Scripture), then Romans 14 should be reviewed very, very carefully. The key verse is Rom 14:4, "Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand." You should keep your mouth shut and rejoice that the fellow is submitting himself to God, regardless of how well he's understanding Scripture. ---- Credentials you'll probably need You've identified a history of being poor at taking criticism: "I had the toughest time even hearing criticism about myself from others without getting upset up through my mid-20's and even now a few years later I sometimes take it harshly." You say you won't take criticism from anyone except two close friends: "He is probably one of only two people in my life who I trust and desire honest criticsm from, because I know they care and they do it with such skill and love." Now, from a logical point of view (not trying to bash you), this presents two possibilities: either you're too touchy about criticism still, or you're not. If you're too touchy about criticism even now, that suggests that 1) you had best not post here, because you'll get honest, loving, caring criticism from strangers, and you won't accept it because they haven't earned your trust, and 2) you probably actually need the criticism and all of your words in the original post about should be applied to you. If you're not too touchy about receiving criticism, that suggests that 1) people really do need to build trust before they should even attempt to offer critism, and 2) you haven't built up that level of trust with the friends to whom you've been offering criticism. Can't have it both ways. I would submit (though I doubt you'll hear me) that you should review your original post, and see how well if fits your response to these kind folks who have posted replies: ======== begin quote (with modifications) ============ Having posted the above, I have found in on this forum that it is difficult to offer criticism of others without people getting very defensive, ___ arguing, ___ and then completely disregarding it. ___ ... I am curious how to handle people and relationships in which one side is unable to accept, ___ but in dire need of criticism. _X_ (take our word for it) ... Criticism can be very painful, but when done correctly, justly, and with the right intentions, it brings people to greater joy, closeness, and spiritual maturity. But it's so hard and rare to find this happening regularly....... Just the other day, a person who posted here was doing several things wrong ___ and I tried to point them out at which point ___ he got very defensive ___ and almost seem to sulk ___ and show himself to be a victim. ___ He got offended ___ and didn't want to talk to me. ___ He was so emotionally wounded ___ it seems that I would even point out his flaws he didn't look at the flaws themselves. ___ And these were very obvious flaws. ___ ... I seem to see this a lot in folks who post here...we feel the need to point out something that either bothers us personally or that is flat our a sin/wrong and try to do it in a way that shows my love and also in a supprotive tone, etc. and the person/people would still get very mad ___ and defensive ___ and go into denial ___ and justifications. ___ ... Is there a next step that can be taken in situations after which we've given someone criticism and the person does not accept it? Should we try to broach the subject again later? Should we let it go? What if it still bothers us? Does it just mean that the person is not ready to accept the criticism and the relationship/friendship cannot go further until THEY do...like the ball is in their court from then on? =========== end quote ===================== imit8him, I would strongly encourage you to take a deep breath, and spend a week praying that God would bless you with eyes to see and a heart to respond. Then re-read this whole thread again. We care for you. Honest. That's why I spent an hour-and-a-half of my day off on this post, and why others offered their wisdom as well. We aren't here to bash you - we don't get joy out of your discomfort. We have scars, too, and many of us grew up with rejection (the pain of which immediately returns with any hint of criticism). We're praying for you.
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 2:27:41 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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quote:
I agree with you that being forgiving and encouraging (against) of a friend's flaws is important, but I think the absence of criticism in a relationship is bad. When I said I encourage I meant I encourage others in their walk with the Lord, not that I use encouragement as a subtle form of criticism. Yes, Christians should sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron but I don't think that means criticism. I think it is encouraging and listening to the Holy Spirit in these matters. What we think of others and their flaws is not really that important. It is what the Holy Spirit guides us to do that should rule our lives. You see, I am one very flawed individual. I have so many issues that my gracious Lord is working out in my life. But that process is in His time. Maybe it doesn't move as fast as someone thinks it should or it may take a different path, but I trust God with my spiritual maturity. I have so many planks in my eyes I am too blinded to see those slivers hanging out in my fellow believers' eyes. As far as the Christian ideal of if your brother offends you, go to him. Well, I thought on that long and hard. To be honest, most of the time I am just too easily offended. Now there may be a time that I will need to do this but I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me and I will only do it with true and broken humility. That is me. I am a child of God. Before my savior snatched me from despair, I was one wretched and truly pathetic woman. My Savior, my Lord has given me an abundance of love and grace. I try hard to emmulate Christ in seeing those around me with the same love and grace. I fail, oh my do I fail, but it is my failure not another believers. Blessings to you all, Karen
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 5:25:04 PM
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deermousie
Posts: 1862
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace When I said I encourage I meant I encourage others in their walk with the Lord, not that I use encouragement as a subtle form of criticism. Yes, Christians should sharpen each other as iron sharpens iron but I don't think that means criticism. I think it is encouraging and listening to the Holy Spirit in these matters. What we think of others and their flaws is not really that important. It is what the Holy Spirit guides us to do that should rule our lives. You see, I am one very flawed individual. I have so many issues that my gracious Lord is working out in my life. But that process is in His time. Maybe it doesn't move as fast as someone thinks it should or it may take a different path, but I trust God with my spiritual maturity. I have so many planks in my eyes I am too blinded to see those slivers hanging out in my fellow believers' eyes. As far as the Christian ideal of if your brother offends you, go to him. Well, I thought on that long and hard. To be honest, most of the time I am just too easily offended. Now there may be a time that I will need to do this but I pray that the Holy Spirit will guide me and I will only do it with true and broken humility. That is me. I am a child of God. Before my savior snatched me from despair, I was one wretched and truly pathetic woman. My Savior, my Lord has given me an abundance of love and grace. I try hard to emmulate Christ in seeing those around me with the same love and grace. I fail, oh my do I fail, but it is my failure not another believers. Blessings to you all, Karen What a sweet and gracious spirit you have, dear sister in the Lord! You have blessed me today. (((Hugs))) Praise God for the wonderful things He does in all our lives, as surely none of us deserve it. <dancin'>
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 7:00:38 PM
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SurpassingPeace
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Deermousie, thank you so much! That means so much coming from you. Your posts always brighten my day and often inspire me. Your advice shows you to be a thoughtful, humble, and godly woman. Karen
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 7:41:30 PM
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agapetos
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quote:
I really agree with Sadey. Instead of criticizing friends and loved ones, I have found that encouraging them and beng supportive of their walk in the Lord to be much more effective. I agree with this too... quote:
I agree with you that being forgiving and encouraging (against) of a friend's flaws is important, but I think the absence of criticism in a relationship is bad. There are different ways of criticising someone. Your Catholic friend for instance who wants to brag about his sexual conquests. He obviously doesn't want you to tell him that he's sinning. Fine. Stop. Simply tell him that you're not prepared to listen to him brag to you because it is against what you believe. If you enjoy his company when he's not bragging, tell him so and tell him you're happy to spend time with him as long as he isn't bragging about something he knows you disapprove of. Show your friends that you're a Christian by your actions, not the words that come out of your mouth. Admit when you've made a mistake (like when you were angry) and point out the steps you took to repeant over those mistakes ~ asking for forgiveness from God and whoever you were angry at and how you looked at ways you could have handled the situation better (if you'd done all that).
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 8:07:10 PM
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LivingParadox
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I think criticism well placed is actually a healthy action in a relationship. Problem is most people don't criticize properly. So you ask how to criticize properly? Have the right motivation for the words... pray for you heart to be in the right place Ground any advice in the scripture --but don't beat them over the head with scripture Have a established relationship with the person Encourage the person twice as much, maybe even more times than any negative comment Make sure you know what you are talking about and have all the facts Remember you too, are a flawed person Confront in a honoring way, best one-to-one Remember the person is not abliged to see it your way Release responsibility for outcome
< Message edited by LivingParadox -- 9/24/2008 9:13:19 PM >
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/24/2008 9:32:02 PM
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ladioffaith
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When I hear something from somebody that is nothing but critical, the first thing I think is, "What right does this person have to criticize me? What did I do to them?" As others have said, the problem is not "people who can't take criticism," the problem is people who can't criticize constructively.
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~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* The LORD your God is with you, he is mighty to save. He will take great delight in you, he will quiet you with his love, he will rejoice over you with singing." Zeph. 3:17 ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/25/2008 9:53:24 AM
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Paymeister
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quote:
...Simply tell him that you're not prepared to listen to him brag [about sexual conquests] to you because it is against what you believe. If you enjoy his company when he's not bragging, tell him so and tell him you're happy to spend time with him as long as he isn't bragging about something he knows you disapprove of. ... Can't buy this at all: who cares what I think? If it is a "he likes to do ___ and I disapprove of it" fight, then he's got just as much justification as I do because the choices are subjective and based on preferences. On the other hand, if the objective standard that God Himself provided says that ___ is wrong, then you've got true, legitimate authority on one side and "Waah - I want to do what I want to do" on the other. He's out of line BASED ON SCRIPTURE, and should be called to task for it. Tell his priest, and tell your pal to either change his behavior or admit that his baptism has become worthless and he prefers to go to hell. Direct him to the parable of the soils (Mark 4:1-25), and suggest that he's in the patch with the thorns: 18"And others are the ones on whom seed was sown among the thorns; these are the ones who have heard the word, but the worries of the world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful. Or clam up. He's obviously a fool, and won't hear your criticism. Seriously, imit8him, if he won't listen to Scripture he certainly isn't going to listen to you. Pray for him! But referencing one's feelings as the authority is ridiculous as a standard for criticism - the best it will do is just assist him in his hypocrisy (doing one thing and saying another - or not saying, in this case).
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/25/2008 10:25:01 AM
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SurpassingPeace
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One thing to keep in mind, in the OP it was stated that many of these friends are not believers. I have to run so I don't have time to look up the exact scripures but we cannot expect nonbelievers to live by Christian standards. In Matthew (I think, I am pregnant and experiencing pregnancy brain), in the proscribed method of dealing with a sinner brother, that is for another believer, not an unbeliever. If someone is not ruled by Christ then they are not going to respond to biblical correction. It is pearls before swine. Karen
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/25/2008 11:10:41 AM
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deermousie
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace In Matthew (I think, I am pregnant and experiencing pregnancy brain), in the proscribed method of dealing with a sinner brother, that is for another believer, not an unbeliever. If someone is not ruled by Christ then they are not going to respond to biblical correction. It is pearls before swine. Karen Wow, Karen, your mind is doing fine. You're right that the "prescription" is for believers, not unbelievers. I can't think of any verse that deals with unbelievers like this (and I'm not even pregnant) but maybe someone else will. God says His Word never comes back without doing what it is supposed to do, so He might use the exposure to God's moral universe to spiritually make the sinner alive and draw them to Himself. That verse wasn't written for that, but I wouldn't put it past God to do that anyway. I remember being around Christians in college before I got saved, thinking these people would be perfect if it weren't for the Jesus fixation. Oh. Happy gestation, Karen. When is your baby due? May you have an easy and safe delivery of a healthy baby!
< Message edited by deermousie -- 9/25/2008 11:24:33 AM >
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/25/2008 6:46:39 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5395
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SurpassingPeace One thing to keep in mind, in the OP it was stated that many of these friends are not believers. I have to run so I don't have time to look up the exact scripures but we cannot expect nonbelievers to live by Christian standards. In Matthew (I think, I am pregnant and experiencing pregnancy brain), in the proscribed method of dealing with a sinner brother, that is for another believer, not an unbeliever. If someone is not ruled by Christ then they are not going to respond to biblical correction. It is pearls before swine. Karen Which is far better than the way I put it earlier in this thread! We shouldn't just non-believers. Matthew (7) does talk about judging, but look at 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 also. 12 It isn’t my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning. 13 God will judge those on the outside; but as the Scriptures say, “You must remove the evil person from among you.” Now the OP's 'friend' (if he can be called that as they've fallen out) professes to be a Cathoiic ~ but this doesn't mean he is a Christian, just as many Anglicans, Baptists, Methodists etc are members of those churches without being Christians. And just as many people who claim to be Christians aren't Christian.
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Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads! My blog
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 9/26/2008 2:04:58 PM
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DuckTalk
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We are not all equipped or meant to be teachers. some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ" Over the years, I developed so much respect & appreciation for the teachers in my life that I believe it played a large part in inspiring & motivating me to do the same for others. It feels good to help someone while helping God, too and who would not want to reciprocate this by helping another? However, for as hard as I have tried, as diligently as I have prayed, and for as steadfast, studiously & eager or humbly my approach may have been, it just did not cut it, much like you say your's has not. As scripture says, each part of the body of Christ has a proper work & although I don't necessarily like it, I accept that teaching or constructively criticizing another simpy is not mine. I leave it to those like you describe your mentor, as they do it well & are generally well-received. Ephesians 4:16 "from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love". (edited for formatting, those straight lines stretched out the page, try using the hr button to make a line)
< Message edited by Kath -- 10/11/2008 10:23:30 PM >
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 10/6/2008 6:48:54 PM
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imit8him
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Hi everyone, I just wanted to ask a follow-up question about a particular individual I am dealing with... Actually, I did want to also thank everyone for the time and effort they put in here offering advice and thoughts. I may not have agreed with everyone, but at least my horizon was broadened. More specifically, I saw the tender-hearted love that people had for their frirends and the importance of always saying things out of love. I don't think I have always done that and need a change in my spirit in that area. Nevertheless, I still feel there are times when rebuke and criticism are both necessary and healthy in mature relationships and the ability to take that rebuke/criticism is needed as well. I guess that's my lead in to this nagging issue for me.... I sort of had a particular friend in mind, along with general issues with other buddies, when I wrote this post. It's really getting tough for me to even stand this particular individual who claims to be Christian, yet constantly does rude, disrespectful, annoying, and outright sinful things (in his speech, actions, and thoughts). I'll try to spare everyone the dirty laundry list, but suffice it to say he is a very stubborn, strong-willed and actively rebellious type of sinner. I've met him through mutual friends and gotten to hang out and know him over the years, but have more recently - in the past year - noticed his serious issues. He seems to have come from an abusive parent with his father always putting him down and not loving him.....He seems to try to bully people and dominate them. Whatever we are donig, he always is so forceful in any conversation. He tries to literally FORCE his view on you and then puts people down who disagree. He gossips, lies, is ambitious to the point of being cutthroat and manipulating, is greedy, lustful, etc. ...I have noticed thing after thing and have tried to bring these areas up to rebuke and help him to no avail. If you can simply trust me on this...I've been very supportive, understanding and loving in the past and have tried to lovingly show him his error, but the one/two word(s) that best describe him is: stubborn and very proud. He never thinks he is wrong. He also doesn't respect other people's opinions, but has to talk over them and try to force his view. I personally think he has psychological issues. We were eating dinner one night in a group and havnig fun talking nabout random stuff and he goes on a weird rant about politics and power in society and hijacks the convo to the point of attacking everyone's views in an unsolicited manner. One of my friends called him out on this and he didn't seem to get it, nor care. He just keeps saying "These things have to be said. If no one says them, they'll never get solved..." It's like all he cares about sometimes is politics and the negative social problems you hear about. He says he doesn't care about having fun or anythign in life - just changing the status quo (whatever that means)..... Anyhow, I used to try to avoid him, but he kept contacting me and trying to hang out. Being nice I agreed on occassions only to find this guy psycho. He is bitter, mean-spirited and seemingly depressed about everything in life. He makes over $75K a year with a good education and job and seems normal on the outside. Yet in social situations his ugly personality comes out and he starts to just talk weird stuff....When I say weird stuff I mean the most politically incorrect and offensive stuff possible. Just personal political and social views. He'll make racist comments or trash people for no reason he dislikes. I've tried asking him what his problem is and why he is so negative and so stubborn and defensive when I've pointed this stuff out int he poast....He just gets mad and puts me down. He puts everyone down who criticizes or rebukes him and stays with his very very stubborn arrogance and belligerence. He's like the embodiment of evil. But he also claims to be Christian. The worst was a few months ago when I stopped a conversation and asked to pray with him over something problematic. I did so out of love and did it in a loving tone, but he completely refused. I honestly think he's demon possessed at times. He said he didnt' feel comfortable praying and we talked about his Christian walk and he just does this on his own. I een thought that was weird. Why would you feel uncomfortable praying? He talks about God as though it was something abstract ...it's like he has the license-to-sin version/understanding of Christianity...where God is used to make your conscience feel better due to sin, but not someone you recogize as God and seek to follow after......He was raised a Catholic..he has frequently put down Protestant churches in the past for now reason. His main thing I hate about him is his CONSTANT trashtalk for no reason. It's like he has a hateful heart. He hates things and people and makes it known. It's miserable around this person. Anyhow, there are actually much more issues here, but these are a few and the main issue I'm dealing with is how to deal with someone who cannot and/or does not accept truth and loving rebuke/ciriticism? I'm pretty fed up with this guy. Thanks!, -Imit
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 10/9/2008 4:33:58 PM
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DeeAnnBailey
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From: SC
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quote:
It's gotten to where I've had long conversations lasting up to two hours trying to tell him he is wrong and that he needs to change his heart before Christ and that even I cannot stand by and indulge his wicked thoughts, but time after time I find he gets very defense and upset and will go into denial or justification mode (things like "we're all sinners, come man...everyone has sex" ....or "Yeah, I probably shouldn't have cursed like that, but it was the most accurate way to put it..." etc. ...). At worst, he'll actually not even seem to rationally take this criticism at all, but instead he'l actually start attacking me! If the two hours talking to him were spent in prayer for him, your results might be more successful. We can't convict people of their sin, only God can. If they change to please us it will not last. Pray that God will reveal his sin to him, pray that God will open the door for you to talk with him, not criticize him and that God will give you the wisdom to know when to talk and what to say. I believe in your heart you want to see this friend (and probably your others) living a life that is right with God, but the best way to do that is to love them into it, not try to criticize them into it, that will only lead to arguments. Ask God for wisdom, ask Him to guide your thoughts, words and actions. It is hard to be angry with someone that you spend a lot of time praying for. Your heart will break rather than you patience at their actions. That attitude can touch their hearts.
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D. Ann Bailey My Blog Dee's Delights and Delusions Pro-life, troup supporting Christian
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 10/9/2008 5:17:58 PM
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preserved
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imit8him...I am curious about you indicating that almost all of your friends can not take criticisms...It could be the way YOU come across to them...Perhaps you need to re-examine your thoughts and comments before you make them...Think how would you want someone to present something to you??If something is presented in the right way and manner it would be received not as a criticism...
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 10/11/2008 10:28:04 PM
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agapetos
Posts: 5395
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: This side of the lil duck pond!
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quote:
It's really getting tough for me to even stand this particular individual who claims to be Christian, yet constantly does rude, disrespectful, annoying, and outright sinful things (in his speech, actions, and thoughts). I'll try to spare everyone the dirty laundry list, but suffice it to say he is a very stubborn, strong-willed and actively rebellious type of sinner. I've read your later posts but if you feel that you can't deal with someone's attitude the way you describe, perhaps a wake-up call to them is in order? Cut off contact and see what happens. They may contact you and apologise, they may not. You can continue to pray for them though. Just make sure that they know exactly why you're ending the friendship. quote:
His online page has pictures of him looking evil Just bear in mind that not everyone takes a great picture and just because someone 'looks' evil doesn't mean they are.
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Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not using them in fruit salads! My blog
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RE: People Who Can't Take Criticism - 10/11/2008 10:42:58 PM
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lionofzion56
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the Bible tells us to speak the truth in love. and it says if we see a brother caught in sin, to restore him in humbleness, or that we may fall too. Jesus told us to take out the plank in our own eye, before we can see clearly to remove the spek in someone else's... i just had a life experience in this one... if you are having problems communicating with others that you care about them and don't want to see them hurt (by sin, etc.) maybe you could pray for them instead...? also, did you tell your mentor/friend about this area in your life?? have you prayed about it at all? maybe God could change you and give you more wisdom so that He could use you in a mighty way ...
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