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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 12:11:20 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3415
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
No judge is going to upend the Bill of Rights. Period.
Not one of our Constitutional rights is safe in the hands of justices who subscribe to the "living document" view. What the Founders actually meant is of no consequence - it's what the judges decide the words mean at any given moment. And because times change, then so can meaning; precedent is irrelevant under such a view.
I gave one example of this before - the Kelo v. New London decision. Another (dear to many of our hearts) is how the First Amendment's guarantee of religious freedom has been grossly twisted to stifle religious expression and drive God from the public square.
Senator Obama wants to create a "civilian national security force". All it would take would be five votes on the Supreme Court to say that force serves the role of a well-regulated militia, and therefore private gun ownership is unnecessary and contrary to the public good. Poof! Your rights just got re-interpreted away.
-Robb
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 12:37:02 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
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quote:
If you see no need to protect yourself or others, are not going hunting or target shooting, don't get a gun. That's the wonderful thing about this country. You don't have to buy one, but you can if you want to.
I do agree, there are sure wonderful things about this country!
quote:
What this is saying to me is that you want to impose your convictions on others. You don't like guns. You've made that clear. But it feels like you are telling others that because you don't like them, they should not carry them.
Well, they have been carrying them of course..I had no ideia as I mentioned before because this issue of guns was one that I never paid attention. Of course noticed I think Kmart or Wall-mart? They may carry guns and never thought much about it.
Plus those carry guns are not using at display like the old west etc. Believe or not this gun situation became clear to me after start to read and post in this thead. Than now I am thinking to myself and already explain some of the motives etc..who are those people carrying the guns as guns can kill live things, as many weapons can..you can die from car, airplane, train accident..as in water, fire and some many stuff you can die..but weapons is the tool people use to protect themselves but it can kill and worse murder. Of course there are difference between killing and murder and you can do both with weapons and have difference consequences for that.
The big problem that I do have with some people carrying weapon that have them legaly but are not "authority" is because I do not know for sure their intent as I do know clear the intent of those in uniform like you. Those may have the intent to really protect others to hurt inocent. I do not want control any one I can control just myself..just like in driving I do not expected everybody will be a bad driver but accidents do happen for many reasons.
Now that I became aware of gun situation I have to get use to it, and funny that nothing changed reggarding those already carrying their guns, but what change was my awareness of the reality that goes on. Than the big problem that I see is my problem and dealing with it.
Now what I see here is the mindset some jumping to conclusions and labeling me as an activist like themselves about this situation of gun in this country that I guess is going on for a while...and coming up with all sorts of arguments as I belong to some kind of battle regarding guns and I belong to "the other side" of the issue. Yeh right, I am no activist as some here seems to be I never care about no gun and was not aware of the situation as I said before.
Thanks.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 12:47:28 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Senator Obama wants to create a "civilian national security force". All it would take would be five votes on the Supreme Court to say that force serves the role of a well-regulated militia, and therefore private gun ownership is unnecessary and contrary to the public good. Poof! Your rights just got re-interpreted away.
-Robb
Of course, even that could be overturned by 2/3 of congress. Something tells me that this wouldn't be much of a problem today.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 12:50:36 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: AdrianaS
Having a gun is a Constitutional right?
I am going to research how it goes..as never payed attention to this issue at all.
It should not take long to research is as the second ammendment to the Bill of Rights says; ...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.
Thanks
RC
Yeh RC,
Check my post # 20
I went to check about the tyranny and other additional info as the history behind the simple "right of arms" and that even triggered some personal stuff because of course I do carry history and experiences inside myself. I am not brainwashed by being in the USA, I am an immigrant and in some things always will feel foreigner what is natural as I came to this country as an adult.
And yeh sometimes I do forget that laws are in the Constitution and I do mess up with dumb questions as I just ask things that I am curious about etc I do recognize that I am ignorant about stuff and learning, plus make my own conclusions and etc.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 1:05:44 PM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
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Adriana-
Just to give you the full flavor of the debate on this issue, the grammar that the original writers of the constution used is a bit awkard and has given rise to some disagreement between constitutional scholars on what was actually meant. The full text of Amendment 2 reads as follows:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
The issue that some people struggle with is whether or not:
a) the original writers wanted members of the militia - our military force at that time which was composed of private citizens and a function of each individual state - to carry weapons, or
b) the original writers wanted each individual citizen to have access to a weapon in order to be able to function within a militia if needed
Conservatives will typically gravitate toward option b, while liberals will tend toward option a. This debate is compounded by the fact that we don't really have a state-run militia anymore. Instead, we have a federally run armed services group that's backed by state run guards as a reserve force. To some degree, Congress has allowed the constitution to get out of synch with modern reality and hasn't decided to clarify the issue for us by amending the second amendment.
Personally, I think it would be good to have something of a national debate on this and an updated statement of principle on the issue via an amendment so we can move on to other things.
Edit: had my a's and b's reversed. Sorry for the confusion.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 1:27:07 PM
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Rockwall
Posts: 417
Joined: 8/18/2008
From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PhunkD
Do you know what a person is called who chooses not to defend themselves? Christ-like.
Then I definitely am not Christ-like under your definition. If a person broke into my house, I don't know if that person is there to just steal stuff or they are there to rape and kill my wife and daughters. I have a sister and a niece who were raped and the rapist were never caught. The sister was beat up very bad and the niece turned to drugs because she thought she was not worth anything anymore.
I pray that God would give me the strength to protect my family because I think it is my God-given duty to protect them. Even if that means taking the life of the perp who breaks into my house.
_____________________________
Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 1:28:05 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Where it says, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE settles any debate on the intentions of the authors...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 1:46:33 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3415
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Senator Obama wants to create a "civilian national security force". All it would take would be five votes on the Supreme Court to say that force serves the role of a well-regulated militia, and therefore private gun ownership is unnecessary and contrary to the public good. Poof! Your rights just got re-interpreted away.
-Robb
Of course, even that could be overturned by 2/3 of congress. Something tells me that this wouldn't be much of a problem today.
It is my understanding that there is no method prescribed in the Constitution by which the legislature may overrule a Supreme Court decision. The Court has the absolute final say. (If I am wrong, please point out the provision in the text; I'd really like to know.)
The only possible way I know of would be to amend the Constitution itself. Which not only requires the 2/3 majority (which I would not be so sure of getting) but also ratification by the states, and is a very long process. In the interim, the decision would stand and be the law of the land.
-Robb
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 2:01:23 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3415
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Where it says, THE RIGHT OF THE PEOPLE settles any debate on the intentions of the authors...
Yes, I agree that's pretty clear. If you care what the Framers intended. The liberal jurists have proven time and again that is not their concern. The "living document" philosophy says you have to interpret what the words mean to you, today. Freeing them to argue, for example, that "the people" does not refer to individuals but society collectively. Opening the door to all manner of legal gymnastics.
-Robb
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 3:40:05 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1666
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
Now what I see here is the mindset some jumping to conclusions and labeling me as an activist like themselves about this situation of gun in this country that I guess is going on for a while...and coming up with all sorts of arguments as I belong to some kind of battle regarding guns and I belong to "the other side" of the issue. Yeh right, I am no activist as some here seems to be I never care about no gun and was not aware of the situation as I said before.
You have explained yourself well, Adriana. I think many will assume you are an activist due to some statements you made such as wanting to live in a gun free state. Thank you for taking the time to listen to others and learn about the issue. So many of us here in the US let our emotions reign. Thanks for your input.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 8:45:23 PM
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AdrianaS
Posts: 1229
Joined: 3/21/2007
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Thanks everybody for your understanding.
Now get it, even about the "concelead weapon" and why I do not get to see people carrying guns etc
Another thing that is printed in my personal understanding and standings is about to me authorities are the ones who are suppose to have guns etc now when I have time and patience and inspiration as the gun issue is not interesting to keep my attention etc is about differences about authority & power and abou yes citizens have the right to carry weapons and t may get the power, but they are not authorities with power.
I do learn things in my very unique ways, not in boxed ways, I have some issues with learning process and systems because I have some add or some other stuff and I use my own free methods as learning goes. I enjoy to be free in my learning experience and choice of subjects and etc that I find interesting I tend to concentrate more than others but if boring I lose attention and very difficult keep me sitted still etc plus I may lose informations and keep forgeting stuff I alread learn before, as does not stick in my mind.If I'm not passionated about something it "goes away" situation..I must be really passionate about subjects to really learn and carry inside.
Thanks again
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 9:12:49 PM
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todd_t
Posts: 1571
Joined: 6/21/2006
From: The North Woods
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quote:
Not one of our Constitutional rights is safe in the hands of justices who subscribe to the "living document" view.
Not to go off-topic here, but the whole notion of the constitution being a "dead" document evaporates when one recalls that the founders left a method by which to amend it.
quote:
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
There's nothing in the constitution about one's right to build and maintain an arsenal. This said, I'm all for legal gun ownership - I just choose not to own one myself.
< Message edited by todd_t -- 9/25/2008 9:42:25 PM >
_____________________________
In Memoriam: 1st Sgt. Obediah Kolath, US Army, Died in Iraq War (1973-2005)
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 9:51:54 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 107
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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I'll go out on a limb to say a lot of yall are very idolatrous toward this country. Since when are we suppose to make this the "God blessed country"? Many of yall seem to worship this nation and cling to "The Constitution" only when it pleases you yet bash a law if it doesn't please you.
I found an interesting picture of Conservative Jesus. He had a battle flag, had a fully loaded rifle ready to kill somebody with battle copters behind him. Is this what yall are truly promoting?
I'll think I'll stick with Biblical Jesus. The one who used passive resistence and used the power of words instead of the power of weaponry.
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 10:03:09 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
There's nothing in the constitution about one's right to build and maintain an arsenal. This said, I'm all for legal gun ownership - I just choose not to own one myself.
There's nothing in the constitution about one's right not to build and maintain an arsenal... How about we limit the number of times one can use their other rights...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 10:05:43 PM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I found an interesting picture of Conservative Jesus. He had a battle flag, had a fully loaded rifle ready to kill somebody with battle copters behind him. Is this what yall are truly promoting?
What's real interesting is a picture of Jesus in the first place...
quote:
I'll think I'll stick with Biblical Jesus. The one who used passive resistence and used the power of words instead of the power of weaponry.
The same Jesus that ordered Moses to slay thousands, as well David, and Joshua?
You know, Jesus, the same yesterday, today and forever....
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 10:45:18 PM
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ManimalX
Posts: 1231
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I found an interesting picture of Conservative Jesus. He had a battle flag, had a fully loaded rifle ready to kill somebody with battle copters behind him. Is this what yall are truly promoting?
I'll think I'll stick with Biblical Jesus. The one who used passive resistence and used the power of words instead of the power of weaponry.
It always saddens me when people try to eat at the Jesus Buffet, "I'll take an appetizer of warm-fuzzies, a bowl of pacifism and... uh... a side of Jesus, hold the Justice and Wrath and don't overdue it on the sternness." Unfortunately, the feminization of Christianity has severely distorted the true character of Christ. The truth is that Jesus displayed strong emotions, including anger and strength. He could have called 10,000 angels down at any time, but He did not because He was here for a purpose. He isn't the wimpy granola-eater most liberals try to turn Him into, and when He returns it will be with a sword in hand..
http://www.2ndcominginad70.com/files/gior_christtemple.jpg
_____________________________
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed." - 2nd Peter 3:10
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 10:53:31 PM
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rgsoundguy
Posts: 401
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Pottstown, PA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I found an interesting picture of Conservative Jesus. He had a battle flag, had a fully loaded rifle ready to kill somebody with battle copters behind him. Is this what yall are truly promoting?
I'll think I'll stick with Biblical Jesus. The one who used passive resistence and used the power of words instead of the power of weaponry.
It always saddens me when people try to eat at the Jesus Buffet, "I'll take an appetizer of warm-fuzzies, a bowl of pacifism and... uh... a side of Jesus, hold the Justice and Wrath and don't overdue it on the sternness." Unfortunately, the feminization of Christianity has severely distorted the true character of Christ. The truth is that Jesus displayed strong emotions, including anger and strength. He could have called 10,000 angels down at any time, but He did not because He was here for a purpose. He isn't the wimpy granola-eater most liberals try to turn Him into, and when He returns it will be with a sword in hand..
http://www.2ndcominginad70.com/files/gior_christtemple.jpg
Cool pic! The reference for that would be Revelation 19:11-16. People have made Jesus out to be Mr. Rogers, but the truth is, he is a warrior fighting for us! And that is awesome!
_____________________________
Albert Einstein said that insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. That convinces me that our nation is insane because we continually elect republicans and democrats expecting change and get none.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 11:09:03 PM
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rebelman
Posts: 107
Joined: 1/11/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ManimalX
quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
I found an interesting picture of Conservative Jesus. He had a battle flag, had a fully loaded rifle ready to kill somebody with battle copters behind him. Is this what yall are truly promoting?
I'll think I'll stick with Biblical Jesus. The one who used passive resistence and used the power of words instead of the power of weaponry.
It always saddens me when people try to eat at the Jesus Buffet, "I'll take an appetizer of warm-fuzzies, a bowl of pacifism and... uh... a side of Jesus, hold the Justice and Wrath and don't overdue it on the sternness." Unfortunately, the feminization of Christianity has severely distorted the true character of Christ. The truth is that Jesus displayed strong emotions, including anger and strength. He could have called 10,000 angels down at any time, but He did not because He was here for a purpose. He isn't the wimpy granola-eater most liberals try to turn Him into, and when He returns it will be with a sword in hand..
http://www.2ndcominginad70.com/files/gior_christtemple.jpg
What in the world are you talking about feminization? Do I look like a feminist to you? I'm just point out how yall are Americanizing Jesus instead of reading what it says. I know what American culture promotes which is basically what you are saying. That's why what you say is going to be accepted why I am just the "liberal egg head". God Forbid I offend this wishy washy American Jesus. Our blood thirsty killer Jesus we serve. You know that one that says repay evil for evil. Jesus promoted the exact opposite of cultural nomalcy yet you are expecting me to go the other way around. Instead you choose to label me as liberal (the way of this site I see) because that's such a yucky evil word. God Forbid and trust the strict constitutionalists. Need I remind you that civil rights decisions such as desegregation and various other decisions were under "living document"? But that's evil right? That's liberal! God doesn't like that word. What if I say God Bless areas that really need blessing like places in Africa? Blasphemy! I am not suppose to say that. God Bless the USA only right? That's the Christian way to be, I know. Little patriots who kill people with their gun immersion culture. Sickens me.
Guns are not a Christian issue. The likes of Falwell (which obviously many of yall believe indirectly even though you don't admit it) are the ones who pursue this as an issue because its the "conservative cause". The conservative cause is also to make the rich and poor gap larger to promote giant class systems. We all know Jesus would love that. That's conservative right? Conservative is always right I know.
Read this article, it's pretty darn good:
Article
_____________________________
"My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness"-----2 Corinthians 12:9
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/25/2008 11:23:12 PM
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LabGuy
Posts: 3415
Joined: 9/22/2007
From: NW Pennsylvania
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: todd_t
quote:
Not one of our Constitutional rights is safe in the hands of justices who subscribe to the "living document" view.
Not to go off-topic here, but the whole notion of the constitution being a "dead" document evaporates when one recalls that the founders left a method by which to amend it.
Ah, sorry, I guess I wasn't clear. Amending the Constitution is fine. That's exactly the method the Founders prescribed for changing it, and I've got no problem with that.
The "living document" view I'm talking about is the idea that the existing text, as written, can say different things because times change. That frees justices to throw out interpretations based solidly on the Framers' intent and substitute their own.
Not to harp on it, but the Kelo v. New London decision is a perfect example. I sincerely doubt the Founders intended for government to be able to seize private property so somebody can build an office park. And yet here you have the Supreme Court saying the Fifth Amendment permits exactly that. And they did it by broadening the definition of "public use".
When you can rewrite the dictionary on a whim, nothing written is sure.
-Robb
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/26/2008 12:00:07 AM
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SovereignIsHe
Posts: 5392
Joined: 4/15/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
Read this article, it's pretty darn good:
Article
Ben Witherington has issues... My guess is one couldn't find a a complete bible in his house...
Not to mention the blog is packed with lies... Trying to tie machine guns to the weapons Cho Seung-Hui used... It's quite clear the man has no clear clue about God's word, and knows nothing about guns, cept for maybe what he has seen in movies... Cho Seung-Hui had a Glock 19 and .22 semi-automatic pistol... Hardly WMD's or weapons of war as mentioned by Mr. Witherington.
Just for fun... An insight to the mind of Mr. Witherington...
He said of Mr. Obama.... "First of all, Obama is neither pro-abortion nor pro-gay agendas. That is simply false."
Enough said...
_____________________________
John
Proverbs 29:12 If a ruler hearken to lies, all his servants are wicked.
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/26/2008 12:16:20 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1666
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Do I look like a feminist to you?
Sorry, but in this modern age using a name like Rebelman, it's hard to tell. Besides, we can't see you.
quote:
Need I remind you that civil rights decisions such as desegregation and various other decisions were under "living document"
What does this have to do with the OP? It's been made pretty clear in this discussion that the second amendment was written to not only let citizens keep and bear arms, but to keep the government from ruling by tyranny. An armed citizenry makes it harder for dictatorial rule.
quote:
The conservative cause is also to make the rich and poor gap larger to promote giant class systems.
Wha\y is it that conservatives get blamed for class warfare. Listen to Obama and the dems talk about how they are going to look after the middle class and the poor, tax the rich. Problem is, the rich create jobs and all the government programs the dems come up with create dependency. If anyone promotes class warfare, it's the libs.
Now, let's get back on topic and keep em holstered.
_____________________________
“A dead thing goes with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it.”
G.K. Chesterton
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RE: The Gun Ban Cometh: Obama WILL Disarm You - 9/26/2008 2:03:05 AM
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GroupW
Posts: 2911
Joined: 11/16/2007
From: Up in the hills of Colorado (very BIG hills...)
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
quote:
ORIGINAL: GroupW
quote:
ORIGINAL: LabGuy
Senator Obama wants to create a "civilian national security force". All it would take would be five votes on the Supreme Court to say that force serves the role of a well-regulated militia, and therefore private gun ownership is unnecessary and contrary to the public good. Poof! Your rights just got re-interpreted away.
-Robb
Of course, even that could be overturned by 2/3 of congress. Something tells me that this wouldn't be much of a problem today.
It is my understanding that there is no method prescribed in the Constitution by which the legislature may overrule a Supreme Court decision. The Court has the absolute final say. (If I am wrong, please point out the provision in the text; I'd really like to know.)
The only possible way I know of would be to amend the Constitution itself. Which not only requires the 2/3 majority (which I would not be so sure of getting) but also ratification by the states, and is a very long process. In the interim, the decision would stand and be the law of the land.
-Robb
My use of the word "overturned" was maybe a bad word choice. Yes, I had the amendment process in mind, which is an "overturning" in a practical sense if not in a legal sense. No it's not a terribly simple process, but should the court veer off into territory where a significant majority of Americans have strong preferences, it certainly is not an impossible process.
_____________________________
“For every problem, there is a solution that is simple, elegant and wrong.” -H.L. Mencken
"Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so." -Bertrand Russell
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