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Church leaders and family "problems"
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| Yes, they would be allowed to remain in a position of leadership. |
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Total Votes : 19
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(last vote on : 11/14/2008 1:56:58 PM)
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:29:16 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
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quote:
Gee, crankius, I guess according to you it means that if my 2 year old throws a fit because I make him eat his dinner that I need to be fired from my role as pastor.
That doesn't quite explain your answer.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 4:30:18 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:31:17 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Why do you only ask about a teenage daughter who is pregnant?
I didn't start the thread. It is Miasma's thread.
From the OP:
quote:
If a deacon, elder, etc. at your church had a pregnant teen with known drug abuse problems, would they be allowed to retain their position of authority in the church?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:33:55 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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Since I'm no longer a lone voter, lol.
If we truly followed this, the pulpits would all be empty.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 4:35:55 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:35:56 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
What do you think "having his children in submission with all reverence" means?
I'm wondering what you think of this.
NIV: "children obey him with proper respect." (just for my own clarification)
Sometimes even obedient children who respect their parents make mistakes, get caught up in addictions, have mental illness, etc. Again, if the elder is addressing those crisis situations in a healthy proactive manner he doesn't necessarily have to step down.
The best of children can be disobedient at times. I see this requirement as meaning that as a whole, overall, his children are obedient and respectful. Otherwise, leaders would be stepping down every time a child steals a cookie, gets home late or talks back.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:36:53 PM
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Lapidoth
Posts: 3590
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: OKLAHOMA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
Why do you only ask about a teenage daughter who is pregnant?
I didn't start the thread. It is Miasma's thread.
From the OP:
quote:
If a deacon, elder, etc. at your church had a pregnant teen with known drug abuse problems, would they be allowed to retain their position of authority in the church?
If the deacon, elder, etc. is promoting his kids to do drugs,
or sexually abuses the daughter and she gets pregnant,
by all means he should step down and the other elders should
take him out back and stone him.
_____________________________
Why does He keep quoting Torah? Doesn't He know He's about to abolish it?
http://www.tedpearce.com/Videos/TheForgottenpeople.html
BARUCH HABA BASHEM YAHUAH
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 4:40:40 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:48:24 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
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The Pastor at the church I used to attend had challenges with his children as they were growing up...some rebellion, a few scrapes with the law...some underage drinking. He and his wife responded to those challenges in a biblical, healthy, prayerful way. Now all 3 of his children are adults. Two are married with children. All of them love and serve the Lord. All of them hold their father and mother in great respect. I am sure glad that he never stepped down from the ministry. He was quite open about these challenges. The congregation had a great example of how to manage a family even in the tough parenting times. And whenever a member faced similar troubles they knew that they could go to a pastor who understood first hand how tough managing a family can be and they could trust his counsel.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:50:13 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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If there is a pattern of sin within the household, then the father should not be an elder.
As children are raised, of course they are going to sin. The father then helps his children repent and live a Godly life of a repentant sinner--one who is NOT in a pattern of sin.
A daughter who is abusing drugs is in a pattern of sin. A daughter who is pregnant may not have been in a pattern of sin, but she certainly will have a lot to deal with and will need the full shepherding of her father.
A daughter who is BOTH pregnant and abusing drugs most certainly indicates that her father needs to tend to his household, that his household is temporarily not in order, and therefore he should step down.
I do not believe he should step down to never serve again. Later, when his household is back in order, if the church believes he is qualified, he can serve again.
emerging,
quote:
What if the child gets failing grades and flunks out a grade? What if the child ADHD and is socially inept and uncontrollable?
Do you think these are sins? I don't.
1 Timothy 3:1-7
This is a faithful saying: If a man desires the position of a bishop, he desires a good work. A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, temperate, sober-minded, of good behavior, hospitable, able to teach; not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but gentle, not quarrelsome, not covetous; one who rules his own house well, having his children in submission with all reverence (for if a man does not know how to rule his own house, how will he take care of the church of God?); not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. Moreover he must have a good testimony among those who are outside, lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
Titus 1:6-9
if a man is blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of dissipation or insubordination. For a bishop must be blameless, as a steward of God, not self-willed, not quick-tempered, not given to wine, not violent, not greedy for money, but hospitable, a lover of what is good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled, holding fast the faithful word as he has been taught, that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and convict those who contradict.
1 Titus 1:6 NIV--"...a man whose children believe and are not open to the charge of being wild and disobedient."
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 4:51:35 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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emerging,
Are you being serious? Being pregnant out of wedlock and doings drugs is a much bigger deal than getting a speeding ticket. Also the conclusion you draw is way off. No one is saying that the pastor is responsible for the sin his children do. The scripture is very clear that each individual is responsible for his or her own sin. However:
1 Timothy 3
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God's church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil's trap. 8 Deacons, likewise, are to be men worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons. 11 In the same way, their wives are to be women worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything. 12 A deacon must be the husband of but one wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.
Now Emerging,
Would you agree that if a person seeking to be an overseer is a polygamist, inhospitable, a drunkard, violent, loves money, etc., that he would be disqualified? Would it not be the same for the deacon?
If an elder in your church body became a drunkard, commits adultery, and beats his wife are we to just have mercy on him and have him continue to be a leader?
In a situation like a daughter getting pregnant and is a drug abuser would that not show a lack of respect for him? To me the clear indication is that if your children don't respect you or what you teach them, you don't qualify.
I think you may be misunderstanding something. No one is saying this should be a permanent step down. Like others have said, once the house is back in order, if the body sees fit he may be able to be a deacon or elder again.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 4:53:27 PM
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 4:58:47 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:01:03 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
My wife and I have 4 kids - all under the age of 5 and 2 of them we just adopted from Ethiopia. Challenging? You bet. Rewarding? Like you wouldn't believe. The legalistic attitude I see on this thread saddens me. We are by no means a perfect family (as if there is one). But we do not have to be perfect because we lean on the One who is. Grace sustains us. The love of our church family and their prayers nourishes us. We are told to expect some difficulties with adopted children, especially from where we adopted from. Our kids may act out from their fears and their past horrors. Does this make me unqualified to pastor?
This situation you speak of has nothing to do with the topic at hand. No one is being legalistic.
quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
I wonder if God is unqualified to be God because His adopted children sometimes act like fools. Maybe we should vote and ask God to step down - He obviously can't manage things very well if some teenage girl is pregnant.
NO.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:01:24 PM
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laura...
Posts: 2861
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: NE Ohio
Status: offline
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quote:
A daughter who is abusing drugs is in a pattern of sin. A daughter who is pregnant may not have been in a pattern of sin, but she certainly will have a lot to deal with and will need the full shepherding of her father.
That is a pattern of sin for the daughter. It is not necessarily a sign that the father has a pattern of mismanaging his family. What about a leader who has 5 children, 4 of whom are stable, serve the Lord, are obedient and respectful but 1 daughter got caught up in drugs and became pregnant? Such would indicate someone who has a pattern of managing his household well yet has a child in crisis.
_____________________________
This is what the Lord says: “Stop at the crossroads and look around. Ask for the old, godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls. But you reply, ‘No, that’s not the road we want!’ Jer 6:16
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:02:20 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: emerging
My wife and I have 4 kids - all under the age of 5 and 2 of them we just adopted from Ethiopia. Challenging? You bet. Rewarding? Like you wouldn't believe.
The legalistic attitude I see on this thread saddens me. We are by no means a perfect family (as if there is one). But we do not have to be perfect because we lean on the One who is. Grace sustains us. The love of our church family and their prayers nourishes us. We are told to expect some difficulties with adopted children, especially from where we adopted from. Our kids may act out from their fears and their past horrors. Does this make me unqualified to pastor?
I wonder if God is unqualified to be God because His adopted children sometimes act like fools. Maybe we should vote and ask God to step down - He obviously can't manage things very well if some teenage girl is pregnant.
Who stated that an elder must step down if his little adopted children sometimes act out?
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 5:04:23 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:04:46 PM
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crankius
Posts: 4504
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
A daughter who is abusing drugs is in a pattern of sin. A daughter who is pregnant may not have been in a pattern of sin, but she certainly will have a lot to deal with and will need the full shepherding of her father.
That is a pattern of sin for the daughter. It is not necessarily a sign that the father has a pattern of mismanaging his family. What about a leader who has 5 children, 4 of whom are stable, serve the Lord, are obedient and respectful but 1 daughter got caught up in drugs and became pregnant? Such would indicate someone who has a pattern of managing his household well yet has a child in crisis.
The other four doing well doesn't negate that one is NOT doing well.
I think there is a good reason for the Biblical qualifications. I think it is for the protection of the elder, his family, and the church.
A time like this is a good time for the church to extend a lot of love and support, and a time for the elder to step down so that he can serve his family above the church.
_____________________________
Do not be overly righteous, Nor be overly wise: Why should you destroy yourself?
Ecclesiastes 7:16
SYSTEMATIC THEOLOGY
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 5:09:21 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:13:16 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3121
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
quote:
A daughter who is abusing drugs is in a pattern of sin. A daughter who is pregnant may not have been in a pattern of sin, but she certainly will have a lot to deal with and will need the full shepherding of her father.
That is a pattern of sin for the daughter. It is not necessarily a sign that the father has a pattern of mismanaging his family. What about a leader who has 5 children, 4 of whom are stable, serve the Lord, are obedient and respectful but 1 daughter got caught up in drugs and became pregnant? Such would indicate someone who has a pattern of managing his household well yet has a child in crisis.
The other four doing well doesn't negate that one is NOT doing well.
I think there is a good reason for the Biblical qualifications. I think it is for the protection of the elder, his family, and the church.
A time like this is a good time for the church to extend a lot of love and support, and a time for the elder to step down so that he can serve his family above the church.
I agree, Cranky! Another very important point I think you made earlier was to give him the time, space and opportunity to deal with his family without the constraints of full time ministry...and to have the chance to switch from being the one doing the ministering to the one being ministered to.
quote:
ORIGINAL:: Emergent
Hey- what if a pastor has 5 kids and one of them does not commit their life to Christ? What if they turn their back on God? Will you fire your pastor?
Now, who's talking apples and oranges?
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 5:17:36 PM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 458
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: online
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quote:
A daughter who is abusing drugs is in a pattern of sin. A daughter who is pregnant may not have been in a pattern of sin, but she certainly will have a lot to deal with and will need the full shepherding of her father.
quote:
ORIGINAL: laura...
That is a pattern of sin for the daughter. It is not necessarily a sign that the father has a pattern of mismanaging his family. What about a leader who has 5 children, 4 of whom are stable, serve the Lord, are obedient and respectful but 1 daughter got caught up in drugs and became pregnant? Such would indicate someone who has a pattern of managing his household well yet has a child in crisis.
quote:
ORIGINAL: crankius
The other four doing well doesn't negate that one is NOT doing well.
I think there is a good reason for the Biblical qualifications. I think it is for the protection of the elder, his family, and the church.
A time like this is a good time for the church to extend a lot of love and support, and a time for the elder to step down so that he can serve his family above the church.
This I agree with. Especially that second and third sentence.
_____________________________
In Christ,
Richad
The greatest heresy to American Christianity is that if you ask Jesus to come into your heart, he definitely will.
Paul Washer
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[Deleted] - 9/24/2008 6:06:55 PM
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RE: Church leaders and family "problems" - 9/24/2008 6:53:56 PM
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TrustingGod
Posts: 149
Joined: 6/19/2008
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The verse would be referring to children under the authority of the elder. Therefore, sins/non-salvation of adult children or children under another's authority are not to be considered.
I believe you have to look at the reason the children are given to sin. The teenage daughter who is pregnant and doing drugs - where was dad when this started (the drugs or having sex)? Should he have seen the signs or was he too busy at work and tending the flock that he "lost" his own daughter?
Let's look at it from a little different perspective. If your accountant was filing bankruptcy would you keep him on or would you fire him? If he can't handle his own money, why would you trust him with yours? This is the same for a pastor. If he can't manage the "little flock" (his family) what makes you think he can handle his "big flock" (the church)?
Again, we all realize that children will make their own decisions and will choose sin - regardless of their upbringing. However, it is how the parents, specifically the leader of a church, handle the sin of their children that would decide whether to ask them to step down or not.
By the by, I would wonder about a man who couldn't keep his child from throwing tantrums in public. If you teach a child from a young age that tantrums are unacceptable, they learn not to throw tantrums. My child went everywhere with me and I never had to deal with tantrums - I taught him early on that such behavior would result in punishment. Therefore, a simple "no" in the grocery store line when he asked for candy was enough (okay, maybe two or three no's) but he knew better than to throw a tantrum.
It is not legalism to follow the Scriptures.
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