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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:17:11 AM
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ekserekseez
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Limiting speech is totalitarian. If you limit racial slurs, then you limit homophobic slurs, then you don't let people discuss any of these issues at all.
So what if your kid hears a "bad" word? They're going to go through life hearing them! If you give someone the power to dictate what may be said out loud, that power will turn around and bite you. It will be your bible, or your prayer, or your god's name they ban sooner or later.
Then who will be left to fight against totaliterianism?
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:27:20 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Limiting speech is totalitarian. If you limit racial slurs, then you limit homophobic slurs, then you don't let people discuss any of these issues at all.
So what if your kid hears a "bad" word? They're going to go through life hearing them! If you give someone the power to dictate what may be said out loud, that power will turn around and bite you. It will be your bible, or your prayer, or your god's name they ban sooner or later.
Then who will be left to fight against totaliterianism?
But in this case there was no liimiting of free speech. You conveniently leave out the word "required" something totalitarians love. The mom in question wanted the book removed from the "required" reading list. She was not asking for a ban.
You can use all the foul language you want in public with very little government interference. One thing our schools try (or at least used to) to teach is civil discourse. Keep in mind the people who are being limited here and what the specific limitation is. These are not adults... but children. And she is not asking for the children to be restricted from reading the book, just reading it out loud. They are not even being asked not to discuss the nature of the racial epithet.
Of course kids hear bad words all the time, unfortunately. But there is no reason to allow offensive language to be part of the school process. Part of the problem many of us have with schools today, is the lack of teaching respect and civil behavior. It seems like anything goes these days and I certainly understand that mom's concerns.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:30:23 AM
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ekserekseez
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Yes, I understand her concerns. She wants to ban reading out loud of books she doesn't approve of.
You keep saying that she is not banning the book. She is banning it BEING READ ALOUD. I guess speech, or belief, or thought, is okay as long as it's silent, huh?
Once the school starts picking and choosing what is "civil" speech and what is "foul" speech, it becomes a socialist, fascist, totaliterian institution. The death of the soul.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:40:21 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Yes, I understand her concerns. She wants to ban reading out loud of books she doesn't approve of.
You keep saying that she is not banning the book. She is banning it BEING READ ALOUD. I guess speech, or belief, or thought, is okay as long as it's silent, huh?
Once the school starts picking and choosing what is "civil" speech and what is "foul" speech, it becomes a socialist, fascist, totaliterian institution. The death of the soul.
Well, I guess I have more confidence in people being able to decide what is "civil" and what is "foul" speech. Just like I believe it is pretty clear what constitutes pornography.
Being able to discern acceptable speech and behavior is not totalitarian... nor is it democratic... it is simply part of maturity - something which children have not yet achieved and it is the job of adults to teach them. Unfortunately too many lazy parents have abdicated that responsibility to the schools or to the popular culture.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:45:25 AM
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ekserekseez
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As the great Ronald Reagan said, "There you go again!"
Once you decide that certain speech can be restricted because it's "acceptable" or "mature," you're on the RINO trodden road to SOCIALISM.
Go to Iran, or Saudi Arabia, or San Francisco, and see how you like others deciding what is "acceptable" or "mature" for you and your kids to hear.
The road to totalitarianism is wide, and apparently well paved, or at least well trodden by RINOs.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:53:06 AM
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ekserekseez
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You really don't get it, do you? Don't read between the lines; the text is in front of your eyes.
And wait until it's YOUR book, YOUR bible, YOUR prayer, that is "offensive."
RINOs on the slippery slope! Look out ahead! Of course, they've done so well with public ed, just like they have with the free market.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:56:21 AM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
You really don't get it, do you? Don't read between the lines; the text is in front of your eyes.
And wait until it's YOUR book, YOUR bible, YOUR prayer, that is "offensive."
RINOs on the slippery slope! Look out ahead! Of course, they've done so well with public ed, just like they have with the free market.
Help me out here. Are you saying some speech should be restricted? I thought you said that any discernment of what is acceptable would lead to totalitarianism. Did I get that wrong? What about porno? What about child porno? Can anything at all be restricted?
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 10:58:03 AM
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ekserekseez
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No, I'm saying that NO speech should be restricted. I'm not sure what it is you're not understanding about that.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:03:23 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
No, I'm saying that NO speech should be restricted. I'm not sure what it is you're not understanding about that.
Well, Ronald Reagan would NOT agree with you.
Here is an excerpt from a speech he gave to the NRB, 1/30/1984:
quote:
Let me assure you of something else: We want parents to know their children will not be victims of child pornography. I look forward to signing a new bill now awaiting final action in a conference committee that will tighten our laws against child pornography. And we're concerned about enforcement of all the Federal antiobscenity laws.
Seems like Ronald Reagan, your hero (and mine), knew what pornography and obsenity was AND HE WAS AGAINST IT!
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:06:38 AM
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ekserekseez
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I said he was great, not god.
Some say the bible is pornography. Some say it's "offensive." Presumably you would object to that?
Some day maybe you will want to read your bible out loud to a child, and you won't be permitted to, because it's considered "obscene" or "indecent" or "offensive." I hope it doesn't happen to you but it might.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:09:47 AM
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earthless
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I do not believe books should be censored.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:14:46 AM
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ekserekseez
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Books should not, nor should papers, albums, art, sculpture, or anything else.
Both "liberals" and "conservatives" these days are too free with banning what they disagree with.
Sounds to me like a combination of LAZINESS and INSECURITY of one's own convictions.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:16:19 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
I said he was great, not god.
And I never said he was god. Just someone with good common sense.
quote:
Some say the bible is pornography. Some say it's "offensive." Presumably you would object to that?
I guess it depends on your definition of pornography. Liberals have a tendency to redfine commonly accepted definitions.
quote:
Some day maybe you will want to read your bible out loud to a child, and you won't be permitted to, because it's considered "obscene" or "indecent" or "offensive." I hope it doesn't happen to you but it might.
Actually, those against the Bible have been pretty effective getting it banned from public schools on other bases.
The Apostle Paul said the Gospel was an offense to those who don't believe. My it always be so.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:20:17 AM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Books should not, nor should papers, albums, art, sculpture, or anything else.
Both "liberals" and "conservatives" these days are too free with banning what they disagree with.
Sounds to me like a combination of LAZINESS and INSECURITY of one's own convictions.
"These days?" Are you serious. You are sounding more and more like a liberal. It has only been since the 60s that all rules have been abandoned and "anything goes".
Seems to me those who believe there should be no standards are the ones who are insecure about their own convictions.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:20:33 AM
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ekserekseez
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The gospel doesn't offend me, and I don't believe it.
As for public schools, once again it proves my point the the government has no business being involved in education. Parents should accept this responsibility themselves.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:25:37 AM
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Dubya
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
The gospel doesn't offend me, and I don't believe it.
As for public schools, once again it proves my point the the government has no business being involved in education. Parents should accept this responsibility themselves.
I will go along with you (partially) as far as the government involvment in education. I also object to the federal Department of Education. I like public schools as long as ther control is kept local. But that is not the world we live in, is it?
As much as you agrue against government involvment in the schools, you still argue in favor of the school's policy and against the involvment of an individual parent voicing her objections responsibly voicing thise objections. Why are you against her democratic right to object?
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:27:55 AM
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ekserekseez
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She has a right to object. She does NOT have a right to DICTATE.
How about when she "objects" to whatever it is you like to have read aloud? And she's allowed to DICTATE her objections, and you have to sit there, biting your tongue, sucking it up? Good socialist use of RINO taxes, maybe?
She can object all she wants, at least in a free world. Many fear that freedom, however.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:33:35 AM
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Dubya
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
She has a right to object. She does NOT have a right to DICTATE.
How about when she "objects" to whatever it is you like to have read aloud? And she's allowed to DICTATE her objections, and you have to sit there, biting your tongue, sucking it up? Good socialist use of RINO taxes, maybe?
She can object all she wants, at least in a free world. Many fear that freedom, however.
Where or when did she DICTATE?
Nothing in that article mentioned ANYTHING other than her exercising her democratic right which you just admitted she has.
Lot's of people object to things I would like to have read out loud. I don't call them lazy socilaists, totalitarians, RINOs, or anything else.
Believe me, I would not just sit there if there was something I strongly object to. I am not lazy, and neither was that mom. She got up and voiced her objections. So far, the school has not caved in to her objections but she may take other legal actions such as getting on the agenda at the school board to vote on or maybe even going to court. The point is that these options are open to her in a democracy... NOT a dictatorship.
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:37:34 AM
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ekserekseez
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Oh, yeah, real democratic, suing so you can legislate from the courts. The RINOs have learned from the Dems the trick of sue, sue, sue!
Oh my, they did not cave in to my DICTATES. Now I can sic the COURTS on them!
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:40:27 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Oh, yeah, real democratic, suing so you can legislate from the courts. The RINOs have learned from the Dems the trick of sue, sue, sue!
Oh my, they did not cave in to my DICTATES. Now I can sic the COURTS on them!
That right would not be available in a dictatorship, would it?
But once again... where did she dictate anything?
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:41:27 AM
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ekserekseez
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Your question makes no sense. Are you claiming that there is a "right" to judicial activism?
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RE: K.C. mom wants 'Mice and Men' removed - 9/26/2008 11:48:25 AM
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Dubya
Posts: 1033
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From: Texas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ekserekseez
Your question makes no sense. Are you claiming that there is a "right" to judicial activism?
There is a right for redress. This is accomplished through Civil courts. If she believes that the school board has been unresponsive to her concerns she certainly has the right to take them to court.
This is not judicial activism.
Judicial activism is the process of using the courts to make law or change law. I am not advocating that. I am simply saying she has a right to be heard... in a democracy of course.
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