RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before He created the Sun?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/28/2008 9:52:45 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
In the beginning God created the heavens which would include the sun and the moon. All that's said about the 4th day is that the greater and lessor light were made or perhaps first seen not necessarily that the sun and moon were first created on the 4th day.steve, I see you still have not found a good commentary to help your understanding of Genesis chronology. Genesis 1:1 is both an introductory and summary statement paralleling 2:4. In between these two verses is the relevant detail of creation and 1:16 is clear as can be: God made all celestial bodies on the fourth day! Please don't make up excuses to misread the text in order to satisfy KT's unfounded concerns.
drmark, You're right about Gen 1.16 in that nothing is said about the sun and moon being made on the 4th day only the greater and lessor lights.
Therefore why would the sun and moon be excluded from the creation of the heavens on day one. BTW i have read commentaries but of course you know they are'nt inspired and the vast majority just copy from each other.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 5:30:49 AM
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ask_questions
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Your comment consists of nothing but failure. The man asked a legitimate question, and you can't respond because you don't know.
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- Albert Einstein
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 5:44:03 AM
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ask_questions
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quote:
So, Unclemonkey, you're basically saying that they had the means to find out about the electromagnetic spectrum? What, did they have some very unique and complicated apparatus which told them visible light is not the only kind of radiation? While ancient man's accomplishments have often surprised and amazed us, we have no shred of evidence that they had invented anything nearly as complex as that.
I suppose God could have told Adam and Eve, but there's no reason to think that knowledge about the electromagnetic spectrum would survive Noah's Flood.
This forum is fascinating. Some of you give sensible scientific responses, and yet your answer to a legitimate question make it seem like you didn't pass the 5th grade.
_____________________________
Your local rationalist.
"Men never commit evil so fully and joyfully as when they do it for religious convictions"
- Albert Einstein
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 8:45:52 AM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
Even the casual observer (and a number of studied ones, like Tolien and Lewis) can see the diference from these elemental mythologies and the transcendent Genesis account.
You sure about that?
So out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air,...
Apparently the authors of Genesis2 never read Genesis1.
or this:
The LORD God said to the serpent, "Because you have done this, cursed are you above all cattle, and above all wild animals; upon your belly you shall go, and dust you shall eat all the days of your life.
Snakes eat dust?
or this:
When Methu'selah had lived a hundred and eighty-seven years, he became the father of Lamech. ... father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.
or this:
And of every living thing of all flesh, ... and store it up; and it shall serve as food for you and for them
KT, I'm a bit confused. It seems that you're changing the subject to now discuss supposed contradictions between Genesis 2 and 1. Is this what your thread is going to consist of? Constant changes in the subject until we're all old and grey and have discussed nothing at all? You haven't made a point yet about whether the Genesis account is different than or similar to the myths of pagan religions (which, I might note is completely off topic in its own right). There are good answers to all the questions you might have conserning these verses, but let's hammer out one topic at a time, shall we?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 9:41:24 AM
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draexo
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Nothingman
quote:
Its GOD. He does what He wants. Do not rely on man's understanding of things.
That's a self-refuting answer for it is by your understanding of something that you arrive at this conclusion...
Wow. I feel skewered! I'm sorry you are so angry. I'm not sure why you are. Let me point out that this is Christianity.com. I was merely paraphrasing the scripture "lean not on your own understanding".
Let me go off on a tangent.
I was reading a book by a pastor written in the early 1950's. In that book, the pastor was feeling vindicated by Israel's reconstitution as a nation. Apparently, before that happened, many pastors preached that God was done with Israel. God had given up on Israel and now Christianity was "it".
This pastor held to the belief that Israel would return as a nation. And it did. Almost 2000 years later.
So what I am saying is that The Bible, whether we agree or not, is The Word. So take The Word as it is, not how you want it to be.
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The truth will set you free!
TRUTH
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 11:08:39 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: Raptorman quote:
What, did they have some very unique and complicated apparatus which told them visible light is not the only kind of radiation?
Yes, a functional human brain.
quote:
While ancient man's accomplishments have often surprised and amazed us, we have no shred of evidence that they had invented anything nearly as complex as that.
The only reason anyone is surprised or amazed is because of the preconceived notion, derived from materialist dogma, that ancient man was not as intelligent as people are today. Evidence supports the opposite conclusion. E.g. ancient structures that we cannot duplicate today.
quote:
I suppose God could have told Adam and Eve,
Why should the creation of light be restricted to what Adam and Eve needed to understand about light? Weather or not they or even Moses understood the full implications of what God created when He said “let there be light” is irrelevant. There may aspects of light that we haven’t even guessed at today and that STILL wouldn’t change the fact that when God said “let there be light” He created more than just the visible spectrum.
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but there's no reason to think that knowledge about the electromagnetic spectrum would survive Noah's Flood.
Why do you say that? Do you have some inside info about Noah and his sons being forgetful?
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Almost certainly it would have been gone by the time the book of Genesis was written, and so the author had no awareness of it.
God forgot what He did? “And Moses wrote all the words of the LORD,” – Exodus 24:4a
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Yes, I know Genesis was inspired by God, like the rest of Scripture, but why would God give Moses this knowledge, all of a sudden, that the electromagnetic spectrum exists?
As I said earlier, what Moses understood is irrelevant.
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Why does "God created light" have to have the original meaning that God made every form of light,
Without some sort of textual indication to the contrary I see absolutely NO reason to think that when God said “let there be light” He created anything less that the full electromagnetic spectrum. Can you cite any?
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and that people must have understood it like that?
I NEVER claimed that ancient people must have understood the electromagnetic spectrum, only that they could have.
It seems you missed or ignored a statement I made. The dispute is over what the author of Genesis understood about light. My statement that you missed is “And the assumption that men, rather than God, wrote the Bible is just plain wrong.”
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Gosh, you go after us all the time for "reading things into the text," but when you do it, it's suddenly okay?
Do you think I am reading something into the text by saying that God knows all there is to know about light?
If you think that I am reading something into the text by accepting that “let there be light” in Genesis 1:3 is referring to the full electromagnetic spectrum then please show me where the text implies anything different.
Those who are “reading things into the text” are those who insist that "light" in Genesis 1:3 means visible light only.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 11:36:59 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
E.g. ancient structures that we cannot duplicate today.
Using armies of slaves as physical labor does not require much intelligence. If there were some great need to build a pyramid, we could do so today. The volume of concrete used in the Hoover Dam, for instance, is greater than that of the Great Pyramid.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 11:40:00 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: essentialsaltes
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
E.g. ancient structures that we cannot duplicate today.
Using armies of slaves as physical labor does not require much intelligence. If there were some great need to build a pyramid, we could do so today. The volume of concrete used in the Hoover Dam, for instance, is greater than that of the Great Pyramid.
Which is not to say that the ancients were less intelligent than modern man. A few thousand years is not long in evolutionary terms; I wouldn't expect much difference in intelligence. Certainly the great works of the ancient world were not created by a bunch of idiots.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/29/2008 10:52:47 PM
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Raptorman
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Unclemonkey, do you even know what conditions must usually be in place for advanced knowledge/technology? Apart from God directly telling you about His own creation (which is very rare), knowledge and technological capabilities generally depend on certain cultural/intellectual trends, and this is true of everything from the germ theory of disease to spaceflight (a common desire for progress, a potent curiosity about science, war or famine or other factors prompting a need to refine or advance your technology, holding practical knowledge in high regard, the ability and will to implement resources towards furthering your intellect or tech on a wide scale, etc.). These combined nicely in the West to produce the Industrial Revolution, and led ultimately to our tech level today. There is no guarantee and very little likelihood that most ancient peoples managed to combine these trends to reach the extensive knowledge we have about light. Even if someone has a fully functioning brain and an IQ of 200, that won't guarantee that they can tell us about the true nature of light, visible or invisible. Scientific discovery, in our case, was a long and hard-fought battle.
I am quite certain that God knows a little more about the electromagnetic spectrum than we do.  What I am referring to is your speculation that the ancient Israelites knew something more about the electromagnetic spectrum than visible light, and to a lesser extent, heat. Again, the issue of practical knowledge would arise, and let's face it, radio and gamma rays don't help much in your gardening or carpentry skills. So that knowledge would likely fade over time. Even if Adam and Noah knew about it, that doesn't mean the data would survive in future generations. (Besides, do you really think Exodus 24:4 claims that Moses recorded every word God ever spoke?!) And if the people of biblical times did know about, say, UV light, why haven't we found it recorded in ancient documents? Anywhere? Well, maybe we have. Could you provide some evidence, pretty please?
I actually do believe that God created the entire electromagnetic spectrum when He said "Let there be light." I apologize for any confusion.
But I highly doubt that Moses and the original readers were aware of that little bit of trivia. If you think there are strong reasons to believe they were aware, the burden of proof is on you, and it's not enough to say, "Well, it could have happened."
So sorry to be confusing. I'm saying that it's very unlikely the people of ancient times were familiar with any part of the electromagnetic spectrum other than what they could see or feel, and that we have no reason for thinking they possessed that knowledge.
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-Unknown
"All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you."
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 4:09:13 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:esquote:
Using armies of slaves as physical labor does not require much intelligence.
Gee, I wonder then why the surprise and amazement? Your sophistry doesn’t change the fact that the materialist dogma of ancient man being dim-witted brutes is wrong.
quote:
If there were some great need to build a pyramid, we could do so today.
I was thinking along the line of a program I saw on the history channel a while back about Machupicchu. Seems they said we wouldn’t be able to duplicate it today, largely because of its location. Building on top of a steep mountain entails problems not encountered while building on a desert floor.
The point is, however, that materialistic dogma holds that ancient man was not as intelligent as we are today and these structures are empirical evidence of that being false doctrine.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 4:40:07 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:raptormanquote:
Unclemonkey, do you even know what conditions must usually be in place for advanced knowledge/technology?
Uh, shucks no. I am just a dumb hick.
quote:
do you really think Exodus 24:4 claims that Moses recorded every word God ever spoke?!)
Actually the answer to that question is no. Even us dumb hicks are capable of applying common sense.
It seems that your advanced intelligence has you overlooking the obvious and therefore my point. The claim I am attempting to refute, through all the smoke screen, is that the authors of Genesis knew nothing of the electromagnetic spectrum. The way I read Exodus 24:4 is that Moses wrote every word God told him to write. I.e. God is the author of Genesis. Is God not knowledgeable of the electromagnetic spectrum?
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So sorry to be confusing.
No problem. Us dumb hick are used to it. All this hoopla about ancient man’s intellectual capability is just sidetrack filler.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 5:27:23 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Your sophistry doesn’t change the fact that the materialist dogma of ancient man being dim-witted brutes is wrong.
Scientists do not claim that ancient man was a dim-witted brute.
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 7:22:26 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:esquote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Your sophistry doesn’t change the fact that the materialist dogma of ancient man being dim-witted brutes is wrong.
Scientists do not claim that ancient man was a dim-witted brute.
Please cite where I said scientists claim that. I called it, quite correctly, materialist dogma.
Evidently you either can’t or won’t recognize the fact that science and materialist dogma are not the same thing.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 8:24:29 PM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:esquote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Your sophistry doesn’t change the fact that the materialist dogma of ancient man being dim-witted brutes is wrong.
Scientists do not claim that ancient man was a dim-witted brute.
Please cite where I said scientists claim that. I called it, quite correctly, materialist dogma.
Evidently you either can’t or won’t recognize the fact that science and materialist dogma are not the same thing.
I'm delighted you agree that science does not say this silly thing, and that science is not the same as materialist dogma (whatever that is).
_____________________________
"My object in all arguments is not to make any preconceived opinion of mine seem right, but merely to discover and establish the truth, whatever the truth may be."
-- HP Lovecraft, letter to Robert E. Howard 7/27-28/34
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 8:27:11 PM
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iluvatar
Posts: 1955
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGINAL:esquote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Your sophistry doesn’t change the fact that the materialist dogma of ancient man being dim-witted brutes is wrong.
Scientists do not claim that ancient man was a dim-witted brute.
Please cite where I said scientists claim that. I called it, quite correctly, materialist dogma.
Evidently you either can’t or won’t recognize the fact that science and materialist dogma are not the same thing.
Then who holds to materialist dogma? Since nobody here and the majority of scientists don't seem to hold this view, why are you bringing it up?
-Dan.
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Well, I've been to one world fair, a picnic, and a rodeo, and that's the stupidest thing I ever heard come over a set of earphones.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 10:11:34 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:raptormanquote:
I apologize if I ever made you sound like a dumb hick. I never meant to say that, by any stretch.
Apology accepted. I should not have been so curt in my response. For that I apologize.
I just got a little frustrated because the point I was making that the author of the Bible is God, not men was consistently being ignored. Loosing sight that God is the author leaves the door open to the heresy that the Bible is a fallible work of man.
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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 10:18:20 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGIAL:iluvatarquote:
Then who holds to materialist dogma?
Everyone who is “surprised/amazed” by ancient technology. They may not realize that their reaction is rooted in materialist dogma, but what other reason would cause one to be surprised that the ancients had such technology?
Those of us who understand that Genesis is a history text are not at all surprised or amazed by ancient technology. Tubal-cain, just 5 generations after Adam, was an instructor of metallurgy.
quote:
Since nobody here and the majority of scientists don't seem to hold this view, why are you bringing it up?
You haven’t noticed all the talk of authors of the Bible? The Bible has one author, God. Anyone who thinks the Bible has authors (men) has fallen prey to materialist dogma even if they don’t realize it.
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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 9/30/2008 10:56:17 PM
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Godhead
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Well all scripture has the same theme and principles to it. Mans fall, the consequences of that in the world, and Gods plane to redeem us. I cannot allow another mans inability to love or believe in God to affect my ability to do so. Without faith its impossible to please God. What a mighty god we have! I know He can create light and sustain life by any means that He sees fit.
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But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. (Psalm 49:15)
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/1/2008 3:15:36 PM
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KaseyTom
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Those of us who understand that Genesis is a history text are not at all surprised or amazed by ancient technology. Tubal-cain, just 5 generations after Adam, was an instructor of metallurgy.
It's interesting that Tubal-cain was lecturing about Iron and brass at the beginning of the copper age when neither metal was used. People did not work with Iron or brass until the Iron age, about the time Genesis was written.
BTW: Who created all the stone tools and weapon points that have been found in the tens of thousands?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/1/2008 8:49:33 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
Those of us who understand that Genesis is a history text are not at all surprised or amazed by ancient technology. Tubal-cain, just 5 generations after Adam, was an instructor of metallurgy.
It's interesting that Tubal-cain was lecturing about Iron and brass at the beginning of the copper age when neither metal was used. People did not work with Iron or brass until the Iron age, about the time Genesis was written.
BTW: Who created all the stone tools and weapon points that have been found in the tens of thousands?
I shall forever chuckle at people who give definitive statements about historical dates.
Tubal-cain was a pre-Flood man, and we don't know what he knew except what the Bible tells us about pre-Flood peoples. The brass and iron age of which you speak had to have been post-Flood.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/1/2008 10:21:16 PM
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mikeman2
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
That's how I read Genesis.
How could day, night, morning and evening exists without the sun? How did plants survive in absolute zero?
If the answer is "God can do anything", then what's the point of all those crazy "scientific" speculations in AiG. Why not just explain all discrepancies between scientific evidence and the OT with "God can do anything"?
I don't think the authors of Genesis understood the daylight was caused by the sun. I'm sure the authors didn't understand the sun provides warmth and the energy required to power the earths geographic and weather systems.
Of course the authors of the OT also did not understand the light is just one spectrum of electromagnetic energy that eyes happen to be sensitive to. Much more important would be infer-red spectrum (also know as heat). Why didn't God say, "Let there be warmth"?
Here is what Dr. Schroeder says in his book, "Genesis and the big bang"
"....the presence of plant life on the 3rd day might seem out of order. Light is one fo the prerequisites for photosynthetic growth of plants. Resolution of this seeming conflict is found in the use of the word "luminaries" rather that "light" in Genesis 1:14. Prior to the appearance of abundant plant life, the Earth's atmosphere was probably clouded with vapors of the primeval atmosphere. This would be in accord with information relayed from Soviet and US spacecraft investigating the cloudy atmosphere of Venus. There was light on the 3rd day, in the sense that the atmosphere vapors transmitted radiant energy. The atmosphere, however, was translucent, not transparent. It was the diffuse light that provided the energy for the initial plant life. Nahmanides states that the firmament formed on the 2nd day, initially intercepted the light that existed from day one. He was not willing to comment concerning the composition of the firmament, because he considered it as one of the deep mysteries of the Bible."
He uses ancient rabbinical writings, such as from Nahmanides, as an adjunct to his scientific speculations. I highly recommend his book, it is a good read even if you may not agree with it.
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Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on.
-Winston Churchill.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/1/2008 11:32:55 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
There was light on the 3rd day, in the sense that the atmosphere vapors transmitted radiant energy. The atmosphere, however, was translucent, not transparent. It was the diffuse light that provided the energy for the initial plant life. Nahmanides states that the firmament formed on the 2nd day, initially intercepted the light that existed from day one. He was not willing to comment concerning the composition of the firmament, because he considered it as one of the deep mysteries of the Bible."
Bingo! Exactly right! And the composition may have been ice crystals. On the 4th day God allowed the atmosphere to change from translucent to transparent and the lessor and greater light could be seen from the sun, moon and stars which were created in the beginning.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 1:23:12 AM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL: steve7150 quote:
On the 4th day God allowed the atmosphere to change from translucent to transparent and the lessor and greater light could be seen from the sun, moon and stars which were created in the beginning.
Where was man hiding on the days prior to the sixth day? Jesus said that man was created “in the beginning”.
“The beginning” is creation week, not some instant eons prior to the six days described in Genesis 1.
_____________________________
"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 8:30:01 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
Where was man hiding on the days prior to the sixth day? Jesus said that man was created “in the beginning”.
“The beginning” is creation week, not some instant eons prior to the six days described in Genesis 1.
The context of Jesus's statement was the subject of marriage not the creation of the world. So "in the beginning" referred to in the beginning of human creation which Moses wrote was on day six.
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