RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before He created the Sun?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 12:46:15 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:steve7150quote:
The context of Jesus's statement was the subject of marriage not the creation of the world. So "in the beginning" referred to in the beginning of human creation which Moses wrote was on day six.
You are right that Jesus was speaking of marriage, but that is some rather creative interpretation that doesn’t fit scripture.
The actual quote I was referring to is Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” You are reading things into the text that just ain’t there.
So now, please explain where man was hiding between “the beginning of the creation” and day six.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 1:00:02 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:mikeman2quote:
He uses ancient rabbinical writings, such as from Nahmanides, as an adjunct to his scientific speculations.
That doesn’t impress me a bit. I have seen quotes of Jesus, cherry picked and used out of context, used to promote eastern mysticism. I read enough from his website to recognize that he is promoting eastern mysticism, not Biblical Christianity.
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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 2:30:57 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
You are right that Jesus was speaking of marriage, but that is some rather creative interpretation that doesn’t fit scripture.
The actual quote I was referring to is Mark 10:6 “But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.” You are reading things into the text that just ain’t there.
Creative interpretation? I bet if you look at 100 commentaries they all would agree that Jesus was speaking of the beginning of human creation since he goes on to speak of marriage between a man and women.
What would that have to do with the creation of the universe? And why do you act as if i claimed man was made on the first day, i don't know what your point is. Moses said man was made on the 6th day and last but not least, women.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 4:15:14 PM
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Veritas
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quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGIAL:iluvatarquote:
Then who holds to materialist dogma?
Everyone who is “surprised/amazed” by ancient technology.
No. One is not surprised by evidence that contradicts dogma. Such evidence is denied.
Notice the difference between scientists' reaction to evidence that conflicts with what you call their dogma and creationists' reaction to evidence that conflicts with their actual dogma. Scientists are surprised. Creationists do not react with surprise when confronted with evidence that conflicts with their dogma; they simply deny that such evidence even exists.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/2/2008 7:03:14 PM
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unclemonkey
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ORIGINAL:steve7150quote:
I bet if you look at 100 commentaries they all would agree that Jesus was speaking of the beginning of human creation since he goes on to speak of marriage between a man and women.
Here is one.
“So, Jesus, in answering their question, asked them the question, "What did Moses command?" They said, "Moses said we could give her a writing of divorcement and put her away." And they had two different bills of divorcement. The second one became quite technical and had to be written up by a rabbi and then approved by three rabbis, and you could give it to your wife and she officially was put away. But because of the liberal views that they had taken, there was social chaos: children who really were almost orphaned in the sense that they did not have a solid type of a home environment to grow up in. And so Jesus, in talking about marriage and divorce, rather than going to the precept of Moses, He said, "Moses gave you that because of the hardness of your hearts. But in the beginning and from the beginning it was not so." Now we are dealing with God's divine ideal. "From the beginning..." What was God's ideal? What was God's intention?
First of all, there is the recognition that man by himself is not complete. Woman by herself is not complete. God made them male and female, and the two become one. And there's only a wholeness as the two become one. The wife is to compliment the husband and make a completeness, as the husband is to compliment the wife and make a completeness. But neither are complete in themselves. "And in the beginning, God made them male and female. And for this cause a man leaves his mother and father, cleaves to his wife and the two of them become one, one whole, one total. Therefore, those whom God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." And He is dealing now with the basic divine ideal established by God for marriage. And so we must note that Jesus is going back and dealing with the basic ideal and intention of God in the beginning.” - http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mar&chapter=10&verse=6&Comm=Comm%2Fchuck_smith_c2000%2FMar%2FMar010.html%233%26%7BChuck+Smith%26&Select.x=23&Select.y=8
Here is another.
“c. But from the beginning of the creation: Jesus now transitions from a talk about divorce to a talk about marriage. The problem was not that they did not understand the law about divorce. The problem was that they did not understand what God said about marriage.
i. This emphasis on marriage, rather than divorce, is a wise approach for anyone interested in keeping a marriage together. Divorce cannot be seen as an option when things are hard. Marriage is like a mirror; it reflects what we put into it. If someone has divorce readily in their mind as a convenient option, divorce will be much more likely.
ii. From the beginning: It’s striking that Jesus takes us back to the beginning to learn about marriage. Today many want to say, “We live in different times” or “The rules are different today” or “We need a modern understanding.” But put all that away and listen to Jesus: go back to the beginning.
d. From the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female: God’s real purpose for marriage is not fulfilled in divorce, but only in seeing God’s original plan for marriage. In saying, “God made them,” Jesus asserts God’s “ownership” over marriage; it is God’s institution, not man’s, so His rules apply.” - http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/comm_read.pl?book=Mar&chapter=10&verse=6&Comm=Comm%2Fdavid_guzik%2Fsg%2FMar_10.html%230%26*David+Guzik%26&Select.x=20&Select.y=13
The first two I looked at give absolutely NO indication that “from the beginning of the creation” in Mark 10:6 is referring to anything other than “In the beginning” of Genesis 1:1
Good thing I don’t covet your money eh?
quote:
And why do you act as if i claimed man was made on the first day, i don't know what your point is.
Because you said: “On the 4th day God allowed the atmosphere to change from translucent to transparent and the lessor and greater light could be seen from the sun, moon and stars which were created in the beginning.”
How much time, in hours, to you suppose transpired between “in the beginning” of Genesis 1:1 and the creation of man on day 6? Those who take the stance that the sun and moon simply became visible on day four do so to support their claim that billions of years transpired between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
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"For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me." - John 5:46
Visit my home church.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/3/2008 12:24:27 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Veritas
quote:
ORIGINAL: unclemonkey
ORIGIAL:iluvatarquote:
Then who holds to materialist dogma?
Everyone who is “surprised/amazed” by ancient technology.
No. One is not surprised by evidence that contradicts dogma. Such evidence is denied.
Notice the difference between scientists' reaction to evidence that conflicts with what you call their dogma and creationists' reaction to evidence that conflicts with their actual dogma. Scientists are surprised. Creationists do not react with surprise when confronted with evidence that conflicts with their dogma; they simply deny that such evidence even exists.
Veritas, who have you been talking to? It's like the anti-creationist display in at my university. They claim that Creationist DENY the evidence. We REJECT the facts. Let's be a bit more open to the idea that all creationists are out to be unscientific. I may not be representative of every anti-evolutionist you've encountered, but when I am confronted with evidence that conflicts with my dogma, I become inquisitive. I'm at a liberal, highly pro-evolution university, so they are not ashamed to say that flowers "evolved" from leaves because of the similarities between the parts of the flower and the leaves from which they are to have evolved. What do you expect me to do? Deny the facts? Throw the Bible at their evidence? I am a creationist after all!
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 9:00:42 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
How much time, in hours, to you suppose transpired between “in the beginning” of Genesis 1:1 and the creation of man on day 6? Those who take the stance that the sun and moon simply became visible on day four do so to support their claim that billions of years transpired between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.
The physical evidence of the earth and universe suggests they are in fact billions of years old. Scientists have not all collaberated to fool Christians as some YECs suggest.
So the biblical word for a day "yom" allows anything from 24 hours per day to "epochs" for each day.
It is a possibility that God created everything with the appearance of age but i have no idea why God would do that therefore to answer your question , i do not know how much time transpired.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 9:52:03 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The physical evidence of the earth and universe suggests they are in fact billions of years old. No, steve, it is your interpretation of the evidence that causes you to conclude billions of years. My interpretation of the same evidence causes me to conclude thousands of years. In addition, the historical narrative account supports thousands of years. I will take Scripture over faulty human-derived assumptions anyday!
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 9:58:26 AM
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steve7150
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quote:
No, steve, it is your interpretation of the evidence that causes you to conclude billions of years. My interpretation of the same evidence causes me to conclude thousands of years
I'm not qualified to interpret anything scientific but 99% of scientists believe the universe is billions of years old.
Therefore did they conspire to fool us?
Are they wrong and on what basis are they wrong.
The bible allows for "epoch" creation days so why do we elevate this issue?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 10:14:04 AM
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drmark
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quote:
The bible allows for "epoch" creation days so why do we elevate this issue? What "epoch" does evening and morning the third day refer to, steve? Is that a longer "epoch" than evening and morning the fifth day? Why didn't Moses just use the Hebrew word for "long ages of indefinite time"? I believe the word is olam. Or he could have used yamim or qedem to also represent "epochs. No, steve, God inspired Moses to write the facts of creation week - six serially numbered days of evening and morning. He could not have been any more clear about it! Is believing God's Word elevating this issue?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 12:01:16 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Why didn't Moses just use the Hebrew word for "long ages of indefinite time"? I believe the word is olam. Or he could have used yamim or qedem to also represent "epochs. No, steve, God inspired Moses to write the facts of creation week - six serially numbered days of evening and morning. He could not have been any more clear about it! Is believing God's Word elevating this issue?
You're sitting here 3,500 years after Moses wrote Genesis asking why he did'nt use olam instead of yom? You know that hebrew actually has very few words in total only about 10,000 compared to greek which has 40,000. Over long periods of time the meanings of words often change and it is not clear the "olam" meant epoch 3,500 years ago or if it was even used.
God has given us the physical universe to reveal his glory and handiwork as Psalm 19 says and it appears to reveal certain things and he has given the brains to seek these things out.
And he expects us to use what he gave us therefore if every single scientist who does'nt in advance believe in a 6,000 year creation , claims the evidence is compelling that the universe is billions of years old then it is something to seriously consider especially because the bible allows for this.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/4/2008 9:47:50 PM
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drmark
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quote:
You're sitting here 3,500 years after Moses wrote Genesis asking why he did'nt use olam instead of yom? Is that any worse than you sitting here asking why 99% of scientists should decide the correct meaning of Scripture? You refuse to use a scholarly commentary because they all pretty much say the same thing, but you're more than willing to let godless naturalists influence how you interpret God's Word. As you say, He expects us to use what He gave us!
quote:
then it is something to seriously consider especially because the bible allows for this. Do you have a chapter and verse to support this claim? Exactly how does yom qualified by evening and morning with six serial numbers allow for the concept of "epochs"?
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Jeremiah 31:31-34. The time is NOW, fellow saints!
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/5/2008 12:19:24 AM
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essentialsaltes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: drmark
quote:
You're sitting here 3,500 years after Moses wrote Genesis asking why he did'nt use olam instead of yom? Is that any worse than you sitting here asking why 99% of scientists should decide the correct meaning of Scripture?
Deciding the correct meaning of scripture is not within the purview of science; scientists agree on statements that are within science's field of study, including that the earth is old and that life has evolved.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/5/2008 10:22:48 PM
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steve7150
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quote:
Do you have a chapter and verse to support this claim? Exactly how does yom qualified by evening and morning with six serial numbers allow for the concept of "epochs"?
Most scientists may be godless naturalists but that does'nt mean they can't figure out how old the universe is.
IMO the expression evening and morning is probably a poetic hebrew idiom describing first darkness and desolation "evening" followed by the birth of creation "morning."
After all literally speaking evening (6PM) until morning (6AM) is really 12 hours not 24. And a 24 hour day could be described simply as day and night which is a term Moses actually used in Gen 4 when he said God made the greater and lessor lights to rule over the day and night. So the language used sounds like a process of creation rather then 24 hours. We see several times the phrase "brought forth" by the earth or sea which sounds like a process.
In Gen 2 God told Adam to name the animals. In ancient times names were given based on the charactoristics of something therefore naming hundreds of animals intelligently would take at least months.
Also if the sun and moon were created on the 4th day why is it that evening and morning were used to conclude the prior days?
If you insist that Gen must be literal then after Adam sinned was his punishment to be his encounter with literal thorns and thistles?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/17/2008 8:13:48 AM
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biggjohn
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DanJames
Well, one thing I will say Kasey Tom is that you are indeed a critical thinker. Water can't exist in the liquid phase without sufficient pressure (about 0.006 atm). It would be either a vapor or a solid depending on the temperature. That is a good point.
It could also exist as plasma
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/17/2008 5:17:32 PM
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ot4christ
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Drmark, unclemonkey, and other YEC contributors, you have made your point, and made it clearly. Genesis does not allow for a literal interpretation of "day" to mean anything but 24-hours. I allowed myself to be duped by the naturalistic day-agers. Since there is no acceptable way to interpret the Genesis creation timeframe to mean anything other than 144-hours, I have no choice but to renounce Christianity. After all, as AiG and ICR say, If you don't believe the first chapter of the bible, how can you believe any of it.
Even if I were to allow for the supposed “appearance of age” of the earth, that cannot account for the vast distances of stellar bodies. The light “in transit” explanation fails miserably with regards to observed supernova. Therefore, I will search for another Intelligent Designer.
Thank you all for enlightening me. I can now return to one of the favorite pastimes of my youth -- debating Christians. I am confident that the last 15-years of bible study will come in very handy.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/17/2008 5:48:18 PM
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Jhud
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quote:
Thank you all for enlightening me. I can now return to one of the favorite pastimes of my youth -- debating Christians. I am confident that the last 15-years of bible study will come in very handy.
Drmark, and unclemonkey are fairly persuasive people, but I don't think they could persuade the Holy Spirit to leave you, nor would they want to; if this has happened, there must be some hitherto unknown cause, and I would suggest seeking wise spiritual counsel.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/17/2008 6:59:02 PM
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ot4christ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Thank you all for enlightening me. I can now return to one of the favorite pastimes of my youth -- debating Christians. I am confident that the last 15-years of bible study will come in very handy.
Drmark, and unclemonkey are fairly persuasive people, but I don't think they could persuade the Holy Spirit to leave you, nor would they want to; if this has happened, there must be some hitherto unknown cause, and I would suggest seeking wise spiritual counsel.
Sorry, I did not mean to be deceptive. I thought the sarcasm would come through clearly. I probably should have used an emoticon :-J or :-q (tongue in cheek)
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/18/2008 4:45:46 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ot4christ
quote:
ORIGINAL: Jhud
quote:
Thank you all for enlightening me. I can now return to one of the favorite pastimes of my youth -- debating Christians. I am confident that the last 15-years of bible study will come in very handy.
Drmark, and unclemonkey are fairly persuasive people, but I don't think they could persuade the Holy Spirit to leave you, nor would they want to; if this has happened, there must be some hitherto unknown cause, and I would suggest seeking wise spiritual counsel.
Sorry, I did not mean to be deceptive. I thought the sarcasm would come through clearly. I probably should have used an emoticon :-J or :-q (tongue in cheek)
Perhaps not because I still don't think I get it. Were you wanting to discuss the distant starlight question?
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/20/2008 1:41:09 PM
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bravjim
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Asking questions that man cannot answer. Here is my theory. The light created was His goodness and righteousness, as John describes light in his gospel. "I am the light of the world". Another thought is that it was the great light that scientists believe led to the big bang theory. As it exploded, matter was scattered throughout the universe, thus leading to the sun and the stars and the moon and the planets.
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I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfilll the lust of the flesh.
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RE: Did God create light, day, night, and plants before... - 10/23/2008 2:10:00 PM
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DanJames
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bravjim
Asking questions that man cannot answer. Here is my theory. The light created was His goodness and righteousness, as John describes light in his gospel. "I am the light of the world". Another thought is that it was the great light that scientists believe led to the big bang theory. As it exploded, matter was scattered throughout the universe, thus leading to the sun and the stars and the moon and the planets.
Perhaps, though not necessarily in that order since the sun, moon, and stars were created four days after the earth.
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