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[Poll]
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Nature of Hell
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| Hell is a place of eternal unspeakable pain and suffering. |
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| Hell is simply a place without God. |
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| Neither (explain) |
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Total Votes : 38
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(last vote on : 10/4/2008 8:06:17 PM)
(Poll will run till: -- )
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/29/2008 2:26:03 PM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
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As for the nature of Hell, I've always believed it to be a place totally separated from God and separated from all the good that God gives. Imagine an eternity devoid of every good thing leaving only every bad thing imaginable and unimaginable. Every hurt, every wound, every pain every evil thing would be magnified with no comfort...no abatement...never even a hope of relief.
I have God in my life today and I can honestly say that I wouldn't even want to spend this side of eternity without God. I surely wouldn't want to spend all of eternity without Him. I am so grateful for His grace through Jesus so I don't have to ever be separated from Him and His goodness.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/29/2008 4:32:10 PM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
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KaseyTom,
Have you ever read any of the "Case for...." series of books by Lee Strobel or the Josh McDowell books on Evidence That Demands a Verdict? These are just two authors that come to the top of my mind that set out to disprove the teachings of Christianity as skeptics or as an atheist and ended up being convinced after critically examining Christianity. I'm sure others could post other references. I know there are scientists out there (I can't think of their names but I have heard their interviews) who don't find a conflict in their faith and science. I'll try to get more information on this.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/29/2008 4:48:30 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
I don't believe in the God you folks describe not because I don't want to. Given the choice I would much rather believe in the certainty of a happy afterlife then the certainty of no afterlife. After all, believing in an afterlife is as there actually being one.
However, the personal experiences and observation of my life have led me to the following conclusions
Ah, see, then you don't really want to believe. Your passions have not been stirred. Your passions are clearly more stirred by the evidence you see than your own apparent desires.
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Every religion claims to know the truth and claims every other religion is a lie.
Not every religion. But Christianity does, certainly.
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The sole source of evidence is the Bible
Far from it, I'm afraid. I've seen God work in powerful, personal ways, not only in my own life, but in the lives of those around me.
There is, arguably, other sources of evidence, but it gets more difficult to pin those on the God of the Bible.
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which I know with certainty contains many factual inaccuracies and contradicts the entire world body of science, thousands of museums and universities overflowing with physical evidence
I'd like to hear some. (just so my tone is not misunderstood, as it easily can be only, that was meant with sincerity, not a "Oh yeah, well, bring it on!" attitude)
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as well as the beliefs of 3/4 of the population of the world.
You should know percentage doesn't create truth. If that were so, spontaneous generation would have been, at one point, truth.
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So, for coming to a perfectly reasonable and defensible conclusion based solely on evidence, observation, and logic, I deserve to burn in Hell for eternity?
No. For sinning against God, you deserve to burn in Hell for eternity. And so do I. Thankfully, Christ's perfect life and sacrificial death paid the price for my sins. And for yours. The only difference between you and I is I have accepted that gift, and so far, you have not.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/29/2008 5:26:48 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gr8tful1
KaseyTom,
Have you ever read any of the "Case for...." series of books by Lee Strobel or the Josh McDowell books on Evidence That Demands a Verdict? These are just two authors that come to the top of my mind that set out to disprove the teachings of Christianity as skeptics or as an atheist and ended up being convinced after critically examining Christianity. I'm sure others could post other references. I know there are scientists out there (I can't think of their names but I have heard their interviews) who don't find a conflict in their faith and science. I'll try to get more information on this.
gr8tful1,
Have you read "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins or "God is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens?
Have you read the National Academy of Sciences Institute of Medicine position paper on Science, Evolution, and Creationism?
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/30/2008 10:44:22 AM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/15/2008
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No KaseyTom I have not read the works of either of those authors but I did investigate the authors and their books.
Both of the authors are atheists which is not unexpected. Both as atheists do not believe there is a god. Their arguments are based on the initial premise that there is no God. I base my belief system on the premise that there is a God. I have studied comparative religions and have come to the conclusion that the biblical belief system holds the greater merit. I don't have, have never had, an inner conflict that God exists. If I were questioning or seeking answers as to whether or not God existed then maybe these author's works would be of benefit to me. But that is not the case.
I offered the suggestions I did for you because I thought you were conflicted in areas that their works might help in.
Out of curiosity how would you describe yourself? As an atheist? As an agnostic? As a Christian that has issues with doctrine?
We both know that great atrocities have been done (and continue to be done) in the name of religion..when truthfully they were done (and continue to be done) because of human nature under the guise of religion. I don't know if you have been a recipient of wrongs done in the name of religion, but I have. That has not wavered my belief in God because my belief in Him is not based on who people around me are but in who He is. And who He is doesn't change because of what people do.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/30/2008 12:59:55 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gr8tful1
I offered the suggestions I did for you because I thought you were conflicted in areas that their works might help in.
Out of curiosity how would you describe yourself? As an atheist? As an agnostic? As a Christian that has issues with doctrine?
I accept the possibility of some kind of Prime Mover whose nature neither I or any other human can imagine.
I believe that in the scale of the Cosmos, Earth life, including humanity, is as significant as a spot of fungus in a single grain of sand in the Sahara Desert. A brief accidental flicker that will not make the slightest impact on the history or purpose of the universe, if it has one.
I believe that about 90% of people have a psychological need to believe in an afterlife and religion is a means to that belief. The religion people choose is the religion available and acceptable within their culture.
I believe that nothing paranormal or metaphysical has ever occurred in the history of the universe and never will.
Now, lets say a mod takes offence to the above comments and bans me. I lose interest in debating religion and live out the remainder of my life with my beliefs as they are.
Alternatively, let's say your book suggestions pique my interest and I decide to read it in order to critique it here, and it changes my entire perspective on Christianity eventually resulting in my acceptance of Christ.
In this example, circumstances created not by any choice I make, but a choice someone else made, determines whether I spend an eternity in Hell or in Heaven.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/30/2008 1:41:58 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
A brief accidental flicker that will not make the slightest impact on the history or purpose of the universe, if it has one.
Everything makes an impact. A flea on a dog in China is exerting a gravitational pull on me as I type this. Just because I don't feel that pull doesn't make it any less real.
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In this example, circumstances created not by any choice I make, but a choice someone else made, determines whether I spend an eternity in Hell or in Heaven.
True, the circumstances are, in some ways, affected by others outside of yourself. However, your response to those circumstances, and your impact on them, rests entirely with you.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/30/2008 1:45:03 PM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/15/2008
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KaseyTom
I appreciate your sharing your beliefs. I don't think there are any grounds that you should be banned. You've been very polite in the expressions of your beliefs.
Its funny that there are points that you and I agree on, but just from different angles.
For example, I also believe that in the grand scheme of the universe I am an unbelievably tiny spec. That fact only serves to amaze me that an infinite God notices me, let alone desires to reach out to me on an intensely personal level.
We live in a world where circumstances do affect us. Choices of others affect us. We don't live in a vacuum. For example, if today on my way home a drunk driver careens into me and I am killed, that driver's choice to get behind the wheel and drive while intoxicated has profoundly impacted my life and the lives of those who know me. However it has not affected my eternity. The only thing that can affect my eternity is my choice.
I suppose I would feel that God was unfair if He had said "I gave you free will to choose or not to choose to sin...you have chosen to sin...I am a just God so I must deal out justice for a wrong deed...so now I'll see you in hell." End of story.
But God is a just and loving God so He provided a way to not go to hell. I think that's fair. I'll end up in heaven now regardless of what circumstances I encounter regardless of what choices other make around me. Whether I live into my nineties and die in my sleep, whether I get hit by a drunken driver, whether I get terminal cancer. All possibilities...because we live in an imperfect world. But none of that now will change my eternity.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 9/30/2008 9:35:44 PM
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SavedByGraceMD
Posts: 905
Joined: 2/13/2008
From: the poconos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rcjames
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
Is Hell a place of eternal unspeakable pain and suffering analogous to being perpetually burned alive or worse?
Or is Hell simply a place without God..
Well shucks, both options seem the same to me.
Before I was a child of God, I was in unspeakable pain, shame, gult and suffering; after I accepted Jesus I was set free; and no way am I ever going to run the risk of that pain and suffering again.
Thanks
RC
agreed rcjames.
_____________________________
Isaiah 41:10
"Fear not for I am with you,
Do not be dismayed for I am your God,
I will strengthen you and help you,
I will uphold you with my righteous right hand"
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/1/2008 2:09:22 AM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gr8tful1
KaseyTom
I appreciate your sharing your beliefs. I don't think there are any grounds that you should be banned. You've been very polite in the expressions of your beliefs.
Its funny that there are points that you and I agree on, but just from different angles.
For example, I also believe that in the grand scheme of the universe I am an unbelievably tiny spec. That fact only serves to amaze me that an infinite God notices me, let alone desires to reach out to me on an intensely personal level.
We live in a world where circumstances do affect us. Choices of others affect us. We don't live in a vacuum. For example, if today on my way home a drunk driver careens into me and I am killed, that driver's choice to get behind the wheel and drive while intoxicated has profoundly impacted my life and the lives of those who know me. However it has not affected my eternity. The only thing that can affect my eternity is my choice.
I suppose I would feel that God was unfair if He had said "I gave you free will to choose or not to choose to sin...you have chosen to sin...I am a just God so I must deal out justice for a wrong deed...so now I'll see you in hell." End of story.
But God is a just and loving God so He provided a way to not go to hell. I think that's fair. I'll end up in heaven now regardless of what circumstances I encounter regardless of what choices other make around me. Whether I live into my nineties and die in my sleep, whether I get hit by a drunken driver, whether I get terminal cancer. All possibilities...because we live in an imperfect world. But none of that now will change my eternity.
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/1/2008 7:15:51 AM
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19ramman85
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/10/2008
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quote:
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
I have thought about that myself!
And the way I see it - I can imagine, if a Muslim or Jew was a decent God-fearling/loving person, in respect to their proper religion - and not a fanatic, I can about imagine them getting to the Pearly Gates- where then they will see Jesus as He really is, and will have to make a choice whether he is or not- God.
But then- that's just my view.
-charles
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/1/2008 8:32:35 AM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
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Is it possible to find a single human being that has lived out an entire life never having even thought a single slightly selfish or evil thought, or never having spoken even the smallest of untruth, or never having ever done an act out of self serving or less than pure motives?
Consider that even small children don't need to be taught to lie....(who in their right mind would teach a child to lie?)....yet they will hide the truth or deny the truth at a very young age without being taught.
I find the probability of there ever having been a human that has never ever committed a sin pretty slim. They may have come to a point in their lives where they decided to make it their life's mission to strive to not sin, but the prior sins still would exist even if they were able to live sinless from that point on (most likely even in their best effort they would still fail from time to time).
Christians, (though having their due justice paid for by Jesus so that their sins have been forgiven), still sin. Not a single Christian no matter how devout can claim that they have mastered a sinless life.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/1/2008 4:07:10 PM
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lightbeamrider
Posts: 89
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A doctor saves the lives of hundreds of people and decides to murder his wife. The doctor is caught and sent to prison. The doctor does not go for saving lives, he goes to prison for killing his wife. The same principal applies to hell. The moral unbeliever does not go there because of his many acts of kindness, but for what they do wrong according to God who is unjust with no one.
Robert G. had it right and i never heard hell expressed that way. Absence of God and His Goodness. In addition to Robert's profound description we can assume since God is Light....hell is a dark place.
As i see it the unbeliever seeks to establish his own righteousness and for all practical purposes is ''self'' righteous. They believe they are basically ''good'' people, (and probably are) and since God is loving they will go to Heaven. The biblical christian, on the other hand, does not seek to establish his own righteousness, but seeks the righteousness of God at the Cross of Christ. The biblical christian is Christ Righteous as opposed to self righteous. Afterwords, the christian makes amends for past offences and lives a godly life because that is what is required. This means if as an unbeliever i murdered somebody and got away with it, if i become christian i gotta face the music and make things right. Now this is a concept slowly lacking in Christianity today. This has little to do with works and everything to do with setting the record straight. At some level most people know if they want to be right with God thru Christ they will have to do all this and it is too difficult for them. The problem is they get a little slice of hell in their lives because they go thru it knowing they hurt others and avoided making things right. Men, for example seduce women and then dump them after they are done with them. The woman is hurt because she fell in love with her seducer. Perhaps scarred for life. There are all kinds of ways we can hurt others.
In the words of G. K. Chesterson...''Hell is God's great compliment to the reality of human freedom and the dignity of human personalty.''
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 2:57:23 AM
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annieflowergirl
Posts: 80
Joined: 2/28/2007
From: Indiana
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God has giving everyone a choice. To believe in him or not. As DC TAlK once sang about God....black and white no room for gray....This offends alot of people...but it is the Truth. But alot of people won't accept the truth. it has nothing to do with being a Good person. alot of "good" people will go to Hell. The Bible says that there is only ONE way to God and that is throught JESUS CHRIST. There are no other "paths", gods. ect. This is hard for me to type, because I have alot of people I love that don't believe. Yes, I believe that a person can change at the last minute of their life. But how many really get that chance. You can be breathing one min. and gone the next. And once that happens you won't be able to change your mind. Now is NOT the time to be messing around with your salvation. I don't think this world is long for itself.
_____________________________
"Live Simply, Love Generously, Care Deeply, Speak Kindly, Leave The Rest To God"
Lee Ann
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 3:02:42 AM
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Ganheim
Posts: 119
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Since other posters are referring to outside literary works, may I bring up some fictional works, with a spoiler warning? The first one I wanted to mention was C.S. Lewis' The Last Battle. At the end of that when the world ends, the creatures that refused to side with Aslan were still there in the new world, but they thought it was a dark and dreary place while the others saw everything in a light of pure renewal. In this example, hell could be thought of as a difference in perspective resulting in rejecting all of God and what He made.
The next work is Dante Aligheri's The Divine Comedy, specifically the first segment often called Inferno. In this depiction, each place in hell was representative of the sin that the sinner was condemned for such as the circle of the lustful where those who allowed themselves to be swept away by lust were forever trapped in a raging hailstorm where they were thrown about in the afterlife like they allowed themselves to be in life. For all of the circles, any perceived enjoyment they may have experienced of the act in life were forever gone in hell. Another important fact was that everybody in Dante's hell was unrepentant, that's what got them to hell in the first place.
I think both of these draw on a likely depiction of how hell really is. Is it a place of unending fire? Maybe. More importantly, is it a place without God? Without a doubt. Of course, this said, wouldn't here and now be a sort of hell for those who reject God, as they refuse to allow him into their lives?
_____________________________
Writer on Fiction Press, Fan Fiction, Deviant Art.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 9:46:35 AM
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d4nnyb0y02
Posts: 292
Joined: 9/24/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
By their sin. He who says he is without sin is a liar, and the truth is no in him (or her).
Your analogy is like saying, "If a dog didn't bark, salivate, pant, sniff things, or wag its tail, then how would you judge that dog based on these things?"
Find me a dog that doesn't bark, salivate, pant, sniff things, or wag its tail, and I will show you a dog that is either dead, in a coma, or in some way paralized. This is what dogs do, so your analogy is moot; however, the answer to your question is by their sin and according to the information that they had. God is just, he is fair, and he is merciful. He is sovereign, and EVERYONE who wishes to know Him will know Him, period.
Think about this. Have you sinned? Have you stolen, lied, cheated, been envious, greedy, angry without cause? Have you lusted, looked down on, over indulged, mislead, misused, mistreated anyone ever, or God Himself? How will God judge YOU without Jesus?
< Message edited by d4nnyb0y02 -- 10/2/2008 9:57:42 AM >
_____________________________
OSAS is the Gospel.
(Gal 1:6;5:4) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 11:16:05 AM
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Jhud
Posts: 7783
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Lake Wobegon
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quote:
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
Yes, if a person of any background was born without sin and lived a sinless life, then there would be no penalty for sin. In fact, the Christian faith is based on the existence of a sinless Jew.
_____________________________
Jack
It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first..
- Ronald Reagan
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 11:29:54 AM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: d4nnyb0y02
quote:
ORIGINAL: KaseyTom
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
By their sin. He who says he is without sin is a liar, and the truth is no in him (or her).
Your analogy is like saying, "If a dog didn't bark, salivate, pant, sniff things, or wag its tail, then how would you judge that dog based on these things?"
Find me a dog that doesn't bark, salivate, pant, sniff things, or wag its tail, and I will show you a dog that is either dead, in a coma, or in some way paralized. This is what dogs do, so your analogy is moot; however, the answer to your question is by their sin and according to the information that they had. God is just, he is fair, and he is merciful. He is sovereign, and EVERYONE who wishes to know Him will know Him, period.
Think about this. Have you sinned? Have you stolen, lied, cheated, been envious, greedy, angry without cause? Have you lusted, looked down on, over indulged, mislead, misused, mistreated anyone ever, or God Himself? How will God judge YOU without Jesus?
Because I have lied, stole, and cheated I deserve to be subjected to the most horrific torture imaginable, not for an hour or a day or even a year, but for millennium after millennium with no hope of reprieve?
Because I have lied, stole, and cheated I deserve the same punishment as Stalin and Hitler who combined were responsible for the death of 40 million people?
Of course to someone borne in Kansas salvation is trivial. All they have to do is be like everyone else. The burden of salvation for someone who happens to be born in Israel or Pakistan is 100000 times greater. For a devout Jew or Muslim accepting Christ would be as difficult for them accepting Allah as your God and Mohamed as his Prophet would be for you.
Words have meaning, and there is NO definition of Justice that includes the above.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 11:39:51 AM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Because I have lied, stole, and cheated I deserve to be subjected to the most horrific torture imaginable, not for an hour or a day or even a year, but for millennium after millennium with no hope of reprieve?
Because I have lied, stole, and cheated I deserve the same punishment as Stalin and Hitler who combined were responsible for the death of 40 million people?
Well, not the exact same punishment, but yes, punishment is deserved. You are thinking in terms of infractions between human beings. If that were the case, then you'd be right - that would not be justice. However, God is different. God is perfect, holy, and eternal. He has every right to punish us as He sees fit. If He did not punish us, He would not be a God worthy of worship, anymore than a judge who acquitted automatically would not be worthy of keeping in office.
quote:
Of course to someone borne in Kansas salvation is trivial. All they have to do is be like everyone else.
If the individuals living in Kansas have that attitude, then I would say any salvation they have is an illusion. No salvation is ever trivial.
quote:
The burden of salvation for someone who happens to be born in Israel or Pakistan is 100000 times greater. For a devout Jew or Muslim accepting Christ would be as difficult for them accepting Allah as your God and Mohamed as his Prophet would be for you.
And yet both continue to happen.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:19:12 PM
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KaseyTom
Posts: 163
Joined: 9/12/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
You are thinking in terms of infractions between human beings. If that were the case, then you'd be right - that would not be justice.
Justice is a human term, not a Heavenly one. You cannot simply make up your own meaning of the word it to defend your beliefs. God is either "just" by the common definition of the word or He is not.
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
However, God is different. God is perfect, holy, and eternal. He has every right to punish us as He sees fit. If He did not punish us, He would not be a God worthy of worship, anymore than a judge who acquitted automatically would not be worthy of keeping in office.
Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing a thousand years later He would have to kill them all and start over again?
Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing the majority of them would spend eternity being tortured in Hell?
quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
And yet both continue to happen.
People continue to win the lottery also and get struck by lighting also.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:44:00 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
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quote:
Justice is a human term, not a Heavenly one.
Says who? Is love the same way? What about holiness, or power?
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Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing a thousand years later He would have to kill them all and start over again?
Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing the majority of them would spend eternity being tortured in Hell?
Yes and yes.
quote:
People continue to win the lottery also and get struck by lighting also.
I imagine there are far more American, non-immigrant Muslims than there are lotto winners.
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:44:07 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 47
Joined: 9/23/2008
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quote:
If a devout Muslim or Jew lives his or her entire live without committing a single sin, and fills thier life with wonderful works to help others, then dies a devout Muslim or Jew, how will God judge him or her?
I strive to be a follower of Christ, sometimes, missing the mark I'm sure. I do believe in a "prime mover" and I believe He is the God of the Bible. The Bible has, in my opinion of limited education, proven itself with fulfilled prophecies. Probably when all is said and done we will find that is doesn’t disagree with Science, either. This God has also proved to be peace and consolation to me, personally. I have seen the principles of the Bible work when I am willing to lay down my life(self will) for the benefit of someone else.
I do not believe that we "earthlings" are insignificant! I believe we are so significant that the Prime Mover, who created us, did so with the knowledge that He was creating the thing that would make Him happy and would join with Him in His endeavor. A significant other, if you will.
I believe we can know what was in His heart by what He did in the Bible. The most decent thing He did was being responsible, himself, to redeem the people He created when HE allowed the element of self will and sin to make an entrance. This alone is worth my vote! We didn't ask for that serpent to be a part of the picture any more than we asked to be created in the first place. God knew we wouldn't pass the test. Nobody would pass the test. But, the prize was not to go to the ones who pass the test, it was to go to the ones who have a heart for Him, who respond to His advances, willingly. And the prize is God, Himself.
Out of a bunch of sinners, I believe, Christ is choosing a bride for Himself. The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. That used to scare the h... out of me because I though the ones who weren't chosen would spend eternity in Hell burning for all eternity. I believed that because that is how I was brought up. My grief over that belief forced me to look for some answers. And, I believe that I have found them, at least it works for me.
The Hell words have already been posted along with their definitions. I don't see where those who were not given some knowledge of God were ever threatened with Hell/Gehenna or Hades. But the ones who were given the oracles of God certainly were and that's because they were trying to go about it with their noses in the air, proud of their self righteousness, which was no righteousness at all. But, they couldn't see this BECAUSE God blinded their eyes.... This still throws me for a loop but Romans 9, 10, and 11, make some sense out of it.
To answer the question. I believe that devout man will be judged according to what he has done, good or bad and rewarded or punished accordingly. If he is not one who believes in God..Christ as Lord, I believe he will at some point in the plan. The Bible says that Christ will reign until all are in subjection to Himself. He said if He was crucified on the cross that He would draw all men to Himself. It says that the ones who pierced Him will mourn when they see Him. It says every knee will bow to Him and every tongue will confess Christ as Lord.
The torment of the ones who stubbornly resist bending the knee will be forever, until, they are willing to bow their knee....they will have no rest day or night. That is no more a stretch than saying the Levitical priesthood was everlasting UNTIL it was replaced by a better one(Hebrews). I was dishonest about something several years ago and I was tormented day and night about it until the time lapsed that I thought I could get in trouble for it. I did not get in trouble with the law, but I assure you, I was punished. If I am blessed to stay in my right mind I won't do it again either.
I have absolutely no reason not to believe that God's justice system works like that also. The big judgment that most Christians believe to be Hell, was paid for by Christ,(God being responsible for allowing us to go astray in the garden, sentencing ourselves to death, as was plainly told to Adam before He sinned. He was not threatened with eternity in Hell, he was threatened with death.
That death was not to be permanent either... God knew the decision Adam would make. The Bible says that death is the last enemy of God to be abolished. The lake of fire is called the second death. Death is death, if death is abolished or done away with, it is done away with...it won't be endless. It will serve it's purpose, however.
I don't believe that those who do not respond to the wooings of God will be wadded up and thrown in some incinerator. I believe they will be resurrected along with everybody else. They just won't be a part of the same group that rules and reigns with Christ...call it the bride of Christ or the church or the elect...whatever...
God is love. He is just. What would be just about Jesus coming to take away the sin of the world if it was not taken away? Sorry about the lengthy response but there is sooo much more to say.
Kasey Tom. I don't believe your mom or dad is writhing in pain and torture in some place out of Dante's book. I really don't know what is going on, if anything other than a peaceful rest. What I do know, IF the Bible is true, is that they are loved enough by their creator to die for them. In my opinion that is a pretty good place to be in however the great Prime Mover in the sky has it to all pan out.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:48:10 PM
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gr8tful1
Posts: 17
Joined: 9/15/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing a thousand years later He would have to kill them all and start over again?
Did God, in His perfection, create humanity knowing the majority of them would spend eternity being tortured in Hell?
No KaseyTom,
God did not create humanity to play them as hopeless pawns.
God in His love sent humanity His son to die for their sins, so that if/when His creation (humanity) to whom he gave free will used that free will in sinful acts, they would have a way back to Him and a way to not spend eternity being tortured in Hell. This grace is there for the small and horrendous sinners alike.
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 12:56:02 PM
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theredhog
Posts: 47
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: MrFribbles
However, God is different. God is perfect, holy, and eternal. He has every right to punish us as He sees fit. If He did not punish us, He would not be a God worthy of worship, anymore than a judge who acquitted automatically would not be worthy of keeping in office.
What if the judge was responsible for our having to ability to do wrong in the first place? I think we just have to say that because we don't know anything else to say to explain the horrible way we see God's system concening humanity.. If we are so incapable of understanding God's ways why in the world would He invite us to come and "reason" with Him?
What is really NOT understandable is what WE think about God's justice system. But it IS understandable why we think that seeing how most of us were raised to believe it...people usually believe the way they were taught.....most not straying too far from it or ever questioning it. God is just. That is why He why He died to take away our sin. I didn't ask to be saddled with Adam's sin...did you? I didn't ask to be created...did you?
redhog
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RE: Nature of Hell - 10/2/2008 1:02:51 PM
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MrFribbles
Posts: 1717
Joined: 1/29/2007
From: Hawaii, but I've moved around since then
Status: offline
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quote:
What if the judge was responsible for our having to ability to do wrong in the first place?
So, the US government shouldn't hold drunk drivers responsible, because they haven't kept alcohol illegal?
_____________________________
You're a door without a key,
A field without a fence.
You've made a holy fool of me,
And I've thanked you ever since.
- Aaron Weiss
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