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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

I am of the religious opinion that it is the Church's job to create moral change in the world, not the governments. We are the ones who should be showing the world that abortion is wrong, not Uncle Sam. The government banning abortion flat out would be like the parent who says "No, you cannot do this," and then doesn't tell the child the "why" behind the prohibition. Will the child do that thing? Maybe not, but it's more likely that they'll just sneak around their parents and do it anyway. It is our role to come alongside those who believe abortion is OK and show them, with love, that it is not. In doing so, we will be like the parent who takes a child, sits them down, and lovingly tells them that they aren't allowed to do something because it will hurt them in the long run.
The government's role is to serve the people, not legislate morality. That is why I am a libertarian.

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ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

The civil government's role is to be God minister of wrath for those who do evil... It's ordained by God for the sake of order so it's first responsibility is to serve God, not the people...

If we lived in a true Theocracy perhaps, but we don't. So now we as The Church need to do God's work and as per the Great Commission. The charge was to make disciples, not elect people to enact legislation to aid in the making of disciples. Just like we are supposed to give to those in need, not pay taxes so the government will do it for us. It goes both way, you know?

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ORIGINAL: mcleod
But once you've changed people's heart then you will notice a change in how we react to one another. Just because a law is on the books doesn't mean that a person is not going to break it. What has to happen is that a heart condition needs to happen then we will witness true peace of God.

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Guns serve a useful purpose... What does heroin serve other than to destroy?

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Romans clearly states that the civil government is to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil... Last I checked drugs and hookers were tied to evilness.. You believe the government could sanction evil, with the support of Christians and with God's blessing... What is stated in Romans 13 clearly spells out the civil government has a purpose, not simply God placing whomever into power...

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Until the Lord returns or the whole world is born again, we will need laws enacted to curb evil and punish those that harm others despite the laws. Without those laws, there is nothing that can be done with evil men and women.

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ORIGINAL: mcleod


Well if you were a student in medical field you would realise what the importance of opium is.
By the way only good purpose behind guns are.... hum? Nothing! Oh wait to kill.

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Say I take it you live in USA with your thought pattern. Just go over, let's say Iran and go on the corner there and start talking about Jesus Christ. And see how long before your are told to remain quiet or else. Let's go to China and tell those christians over there that they need to stop to worshipping God because the goverment was put into power for the wrong they are doing. By trying to worship the Lord Almighty. You need to get off this wrath kick. For you'll have christians that are faithful to God giving it up because. For some reason they are being tortured. Which you have said it because of God's wrath on them.

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ORIGINAL: mcleod

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Until the Lord returns or the whole world is born again, we will need laws enacted to curb evil and punish those that harm others despite the laws. Without those laws, there is nothing that can be done with evil men and women.

I know you don't agree with me on that we could have certian amount of change here. Before Christ returns back on the scene. But we can and are instructed to pray for the Father's will here on earth as in heaven. Also to pray for the messiah to come back quickley. But because there are laws on the books doen't stop someone from breaking them.

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ORIGINAL: SovereignIsHe

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ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy


I had to reread Romans 13 as a refresher.

So your talk of theocracy is no more?

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I do not see instructions on who to vote for.

Other than yourself who mentioned Romans 13 and whom one should vote for?

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It mainly says that those who are in power, are there because God ordains it. So whether baby killer Obama or St. John McCain is elected, they are ordained by God in that position, per Romans 13. So if even one of the lunatic fringe of the Libertarian Party somehow became president banned all laws, even he or she would be ordained by God.

Romans clearly states that the civil government is to be His minister of wrath for those who do evil... Last I checked drugs and hookers were tied to evilness.. You believe the government could sanction evil, with the support of Christians and with God's blessing... What is stated in Romans 13 clearly spells out the civil government has a purpose, not simply God placing whomever into power...

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First of all, the belief that something should be legal does not in turn mean one condones or promotes said act.

How not? How does one wash their hands of it?

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I support the legalization of drugs and prostitution, if it were to happen, you would not find me snorting cocain off a hookers belly.

Yet I take it you'd tell a brother he shouldn't go to hooker and snort coke off her belly? You don't believe that's a mixed message?

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I would continue to educate people about the dangers of such thngs, much like smoking or excessive drinking. Ultimately the only thing that will put an end to these things is the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ, not prohibition by the Government.

Ultimately that is answer for all crimes/sins, but not a very good reason to suspend the law...

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I was merely comparing how it seems that many in the church expect the government spread their morals, but not do their giving for them. It is the role of the church to give and to teach morals.

The role of civil government to keep order, that's the reason God ordained them... That's it role... It wasn't ordained by God to sanction drug use and prostitution with the consent of the Body of Christ...

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The failings of the government do not remove what it was ordained to do... The stated purpose is there and it should serve God before man since the bible is clear God first...

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My grosh me and Mr. Fribbles agree on something. I always have said that there is hope for all of us.

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ORIGINAL: rgsoundguy

The government that you support would be one.

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You did.

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Are you advocating death penalty for drug dealers and prostitutes? It sure sounds that way.

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You know, Jesus also said let him without sin cast the first stone.

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We could go Old Testiment on this and start executions for so many more sins. The people in sin will get there's on Judgment day. So try to reach them for the LORD while they're alive on earth.

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By not participating in it and encouraging others not to.

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I don't. Just like I don't believe excessive drinking or gambling is right, but I don't believe bars and casinos shut down and banned. I just don't go to those places and I encourage others not to.

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We can agree to disagree. Drugs are illegal and multitudes of people are still using them, what are you doing to stop them?

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Then keep voting the way you are if that's how you see it. I believe that God appreciates a genuine faith that came out of freedom, not an using fear to coerse people into following Him.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

So we shouldn't vote for anyone? Because I assure you, every party will fail in some way. How can we then justify voting for a candidate that we know will fail to live up to their ordained purpose?

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I cannot find scripture to support the government to purposely sanction unlawfulness.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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I cannot find scripture to support the government to purposely sanction unlawfulness.

But every party does this, it's just a question of what form of unlawfulness they are advocating. In my understanding, the Libertarian style of government upholds the morality that is the government's job to uphold, and leaves the rest where it belongs - with us, the Church.

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I cannot see the government upholding it's ordained purpose while sanctioning abortion, which bottom line is simply a method of murder...

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Libertarians don't sanction abortion - they sanction a state's right to decide abortion for itself. If the people want to have abortion made illegal, then it will be.

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Personally, I think that most Christians like to hide behind the government, feigning a passion for the unborn by voting a certain way, without taking any meaningful steps like coming along side an unwed, unloved mother who is considering an abortion.

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If that's the case murder outside the womb is an option as well, correct?

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Though I am always puzzled why those who portrayed as having abortions are troubled, unloved, and or teens who have no idea what they are doing.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

Absolutely. If you think the majority in any state will ever vote to legalize it.

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And those that aren't scared, that are jaded and uncaring, need Christ's love even more than the ones that are reaching out!

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The ones that really need His love are those who support and claim His name...

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles

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The ones that really need His love are those who support and claim His name...

From this statement, taken in isolation, I would say that you do not support the showing of love to the unsaved.

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You should take from that statement that those who claim Christ have more to answer for...

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Of course taken in isolation I could take one's call to remove laws as not caring about weaker brothers and the unsaved...

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles



I do not believe that God calls the government to be His personal agent.

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That is the Church's job.

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Romans 13

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To be His minister of wrath for those who evil?

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And the above has what to do with the purpose for which God ordained civil government? Where did I did say faithful Christians are being tortured because of God's wrath? I wouldn't tell anyone in China not to worship God, we are to obey God first and man second and only if the laws of man don't cause a conflict with God's law. You need to discern that while God ordain civil governments for a purpose they don't many time measure up to their duty... That failure doesn't remove the purpose they were ordained for and when the government does do evil it is accountable to God... Governments that don't allow worship to God are committing a sin no less than ones that sanction the likes of abortion, sexual perversion and drug use that is clearly damaging to beings created in God's image....

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ORIGINAL: mcleod

You did that in one of your statementes. Which if I may parphrase it. The goverment was sent to give out God's wrath.

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Now for some reason when some writes that you made mention of it. You start top back tract.

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ORIGINAL: MrFribbles


Oh snap, I had no idea about one of the clearest passages on government in Scripture! Especially one that's right next to my pretty much favorite chapter in Scripture. Thanks for pointing it out to me.
*NOTE: I know that's a little bit sarcastic, but honestly House, it's a little insulting to think that I wouldn't have already considered that passage*

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That's not what most Republican Christians (a phrase I use stereotypically) want the government to do. They want the government to make the homosexuals and the abortionists go away by making them illegal. They want to ignore the fact that God loves those people, and has commanded us to love them too.