|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 9/30/2008 12:24:06 PM
|
|
|
mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
|
quote:
Every Sunday and Wednesday I come from church asking God to either come back and take us home to Heaven or please take me home soon.I don't want to live like this anymore going to church and just going through the motions and playing church.I want to see people so under conviction they run to the alter for what ever need.I want to see people not be able to leave the church untill they get right with God and with each other.This Is what I mean about the way church use to be.
I pray every time I go to a gathering that the Lord will speak to me about my life with him and how I may go about it to please him. Sounds like you go to see if the other person will change and forget you are a sinner also.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 9/30/2008 1:04:14 PM
|
|
|
DWinMadison
Posts: 16
Joined: 9/29/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Lapidoth
That's how I determined which is which.
Praise is "about God."
Worship is "to God."
I can see a need for both.
So, perhaps we need a balanced mix.
I say this all the time too. People try to label me a "hymn-hater" but I love worship hymns. I don't feel such a connection with some of the older "fellowship songs" like "We're Marching to Zion" or even [gasp!] "Victory in Jesus" (ok...barbeque me!) because I, personally, would rather sing TO God (in all 3 Persons) as oppsoed to singing ABOUT him.
The balance (traditional vs cotemporary) idea sounds good, but never seems to really work in most churches. You end up with everybody dissatisfied.
With all that said, I do beleive God is moving in our younger generations in a mighty way. They certainly don't do it [worship] like when we were growing up, but I see them connecting with God in a very personal way, and I have learned much from worshipping along side them. I think every generation looks at the ones coming behind and sort of scratches their heads because each generation faces different times with different social issues, prejudices, expectations, needs; and each deserves to speak to God in a way that is relevant to them. Those of us with many years of walking with Jesus, need to help them find their unique voice and celebrate with them, not try to force them to do it in a way that worked for us.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 9/30/2008 11:51:34 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
|
quote:
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
Perhaps what you are perceiving is not so much the 'absence of the Holy Spirit' as it is the hardness of the hearts in your midst. I believe that is very much in line with what Paul told Timothy. . . that in the end times hearts would grow cold, holding to a form of godliness, although denying its power. Your observation is right on yustme. It's not about the 50's. It's about the last days. And we're in 'em and you're aware of what's going on. Encourage yourself by staying in the word and letting His word dwell richly in you. Nothing and nobody can change that. Bless ya, LL
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 9:58:58 AM
|
|
|
yustme
Posts: 379
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
Perhaps what you are perceiving is not so much the 'absence of the Holy Spirit' as it is the hardness of the hearts in your midst. I believe that is very much in line with what Paul told Timothy. . . that in the end times hearts would grow cold, holding to a form of godliness, although denying its power. Your observation is right on yustme. It's not about the 50's. It's about the last days. And we're in 'em and you're aware of what's going on. Encourage yourself by staying in the word and letting His word dwell richly in you. Nothing and nobody can change that. Bless ya, LL
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR POST !!
You are so right.Thanks for waking me up to the truth.I read your post and cried because the more I see,the less I want to be In church.I watched the church begin to change In the 60's and my heart was so grieved because I could see where the church was going,and It wasn't for the better.God Is with us every where we go,however,the HS decends upon us when Invited.But If He Is offended or grieved,He will leave.That's when the service becomes of the flesh (or In other words,what feels good to us).This Is what I mean by a fleshly service.
Thank you so much for your kind words.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 10:33:13 AM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 2067
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Yustme,
It sounds like you are saying that if we enjoy worship at all, then we must be doing something wrong. As if enjoying the worship of our Lord constitutes a "fleshly" experience.
Can you point me to a single Scripture that tells us that worship is not to be enjoyable or satisfying to our spirit? Of course it won't be all the time, there's a reason for the phrase "sacrifice of praise or worship", but don't go telling me I'm somehow less than spiritual because I happened to really enjoy the service I was in last Sunday.
In addition, I am a worship leader. I'm on the stage leading people in worship. And gues what? I enjoy it! I love every minute I'm up there. Does that make it wrong? According to your logic, it is. Can you show me Scripturally where I should not enjoy the process of leading others in worship?
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 10:51:03 AM
|
|
|
techne
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
God Is with us every where we go,however,the HS decends upon us when Invited.
i'm not so sure about that -- isn't the holy spirit sovereign? i heard this all the time in pentecostal circles: "let's just invite the holy spirit..." the bigger issue is our awareness and recognition that G-d is everywhere. isn't that more crucial than "sensing his presence" (which is where you initially started, btw - missing sensing his presence)?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
But If He Is offended or grieved,He will leave.
i think we overestimate the holy spirit's general skittishness - just how much fleshiness do you think there needs to be before he is suitably offended?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
That's when the service becomes of the flesh (or In other words,what feels good to us).This Is what I mean by a fleshly service.
taste and see that the Lord is good - the psalms are full of affirmations that following G-d and being in his presence bring much ["fleshly"] enjoyment. if by "flesh" you mean the mind, the will and the emotions. are there other "manifestations of the flesh" that might be an issue? i'm just not convinced that because you think the holy spirit has left the building (for whatever perceived fleshly excesses, or not), he necessarily has.
anyway, the bible defines fleshliness (carnality) in the church otherwise: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of G-d (galatians 5). crazy.
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 12:05:55 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
quote:
the HS decends upon us when Invited
Scripture(s) please
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 12:25:37 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
|
And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him, purifies himself, just as He is pure. IJohn 3:3
The 'invitation' of the Holy Spirit is the one whose hope is fixed on Jesus and longs to be pure as He is pure. That longing heart desires to see and know anything and everything that is not of Him, longing for purity, and so is listening and responsive to God---which often leads to conviction, contrition and confession.
It's not about me or my worship experience. It is all about Jesus, my love for Him, His love for me and the hope I have in Him. It is that heart that invites the Holy Spirit to be at work and welcomes Him.
Just as James puts it this way, "Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness (literally abundance of malice), in humility (or gentleness) receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls." (1:21) It is that humble heart that draws near to God and desires purity of heart.
Hardheartedness drives away the Holy Spirit (Eph 4:30). It is a heart that is tender, humble and responsive to God that welcomes Him (James 4:8).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 1:10:36 PM
|
|
|
raspberry331
Posts: 6534
Joined: 5/7/2005
Status: offline
|
Yustme,you said you feel that the Holy Spirit is missing at the church you attend,but how can that be when the Holy Spirit lives inside of you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 4:29:37 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
the HS decends upon us when Invited.
Where, in Scripture, do you derive this belief from?
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
But If He Is offended or grieved,He will leave
Really? This utterly contradicts God's Word. A born-again believer is indwelt with the Holy Spirit, He is with us. So in a gathering of born-again believers.. the Holy Spirit is there, you're saying He will leave if offended? So if He is offended, those there in that gathering will lose their salvation? Because you're saying that the Holy Spirit will leave, hence, they are then there now unsaved and dead in their sin?
Do you see the problem with this train of thought and the road it leads to?
Error begets error.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 4:38:15 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
|
earthless,
I love ya and do have great respect for you. And I know what you are saying but I think this is really a question of semantics. It is not a literal leaving of the Holy Spirit but the effectual absence because He is not dwelling in believers longing to be purified. . . and that is the work He has to do in us. Make sense?
Roy Hession's excellent book called The Calvary Road speaks of the Spirit's inability to settle on the person who is not desiring and seeking His leading. He is not saying that the Spirit literally comes and goes but His influence definitely does. And again what I am saying may be suffering because I have difficulty expressing what I mean at times.
But I think yustme is not wrong in what she is telling us about today's church. Her language and the way she has expressed it may sound offensive to some but I think we need to listen to what she is saying and not be tripped up by the verbage if you will. KWIM?
Anyway, hope you can understand my muddling through this. Bless ya, LL
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/1/2008 5:14:44 PM
|
|
|
DWinMadison
Posts: 16
Joined: 9/29/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
Does anyone remember the way church used to be in the 50's and before?
So, what WAS church like in the 1050's? Specifically, what is it that you are looking to recapture?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 7:59:04 AM
|
|
|
tafkam
Posts: 2067
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
|
Based on past exchanges with yustme, I can assure you that requests for Scriptural defense of her positions will go unanswered.
But I do agree that she has a valid point if you conclude that many of the trends in church today tend to lean more towards programs and "going through the motions" as opposed to genuine, heartfelt and inspired worship...
_____________________________
"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.' - Ronald Reagan
Tafkam
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 9:05:56 AM
|
|
|
yustme
Posts: 379
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
earthless,
I love ya and do have great respect for you. And I know what you are saying but I think this is really a question of semantics. It is not a literal leaving of the Holy Spirit but the effectual absence because He is not dwelling in believers longing to be purified. . . and that is the work He has to do in us. Make sense?
Roy Hession's excellent book called The Calvary Road speaks of the Spirit's inability to settle on the person who is not desiring and seeking His leading. He is not saying that the Spirit literally comes and goes but His influence definitely does. And again what I am saying may be suffering because I have difficulty expressing what I mean at times.
But I think yustme is not wrong in what she is telling us about today's church. Her language and the way she has expressed it may sound offensive to some but I think we need to listen to what she is saying and not be tripped up by the verbage if you will. KWIM?
Anyway, hope you can understand my muddling through this. Bless ya, LL
I don't know who you are,or what your name Is,but this post Is SO right on.I'm not good with words,never have been,never will be.But according to your post's,you know EXACTLY where I'm coming from.God bless you.
Tafkam,not true that I've never posted Scripture.I've posted many In one post you either didn't see or ignored.
Now,about the HS.they're too many Scriptures to post so I'll do It this way.If you have a Nave's Topical Bible look up Holy Spirit and read all the Scriptures that pertain to Him.And follow the study guide In your Bible.Do a study on the work of the HS.
This thread was not referring to ccm.The HS can be offended by many things.Not just music.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 12:57:39 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
Please post the some Scriptures you believe that teach the HS leaves a believer or must be invited into a gathering.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 2:10:21 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
|
quote:
Please post the some Scriptures you believe that teach the HS leaves a believer or must be invited into a gathering.
colliefan,
That is not what yustme is saying. Listen to her heart. What she is saying is that the church is filled with people who are unresponsive to the work of the Holy Spirit. Probably most are NOT believers. Nor do they have the indwelling Spirit in the first place. But you are missing the point she is making if you continue to go down this path.
What do believers do that reveals the presence of the Holy Spirit? Romans 6:13 tells us they do not present the members of their body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness but present themselves to God as those alive from the dead as instruments of righteousness. How much of that do we see in the church today? Instead they profess to know God but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed (Titus 1:16).
Yustme is speaking of those who profess to know God but there is no demonstration of that profession. Confession and repentance have gone out of fashion. That is what she is talking about. She is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those who know Him and she sees little evidence of that.
It is a call to prayer. Many are sleeping. Many are just plain lost. And if we listen to one another in the context of Jesus, hearing hearts rather than picking at the way people express themselves, we will have the unity and the love He desires. Bless ya, LL
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 2:35:09 PM
|
|
|
earthless
Posts: 6205
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
Status: offline
|
LiveLoved,
Listen to her heart? Sorry, but on a message board it is just words and Lord knows tone is very hard to convey in this type of medium. So it is very important that we be careful with how and want we say.
I am glad to have asked my questions because it clarifies what yustme was saying and or not saying. We do have a lot of readers reading that never comment.
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 3:26:33 PM
|
|
|
yustme
Posts: 379
Joined: 5/2/2007
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Please post the some Scriptures you believe that teach the HS leaves a believer or must be invited into a gathering.
colliefan,
That is not what yustme is saying. Listen to her heart. What she is saying is that the church is filled with people who are unresponsive to the work of the Holy Spirit. Probably most are NOT believers. Nor do they have the indwelling Spirit in the first place. But you are missing the point she is making if you continue to go down this path.
What do believers do that reveals the presence of the Holy Spirit? Romans 6:13 tells us they do not present the members of their body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness but present themselves to God as those alive from the dead as instruments of righteousness. How much of that do we see in the church today? Instead they profess to know God but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient, and worthless for any good deed (Titus 1:16).
Yustme is speaking of those who profess to know God but there is no demonstration of that profession. Confession and repentance have gone out of fashion. That is what she is talking about. She is talking about the work of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those who know Him and she sees little evidence of that.
It is a call to prayer. Many are sleeping. Many are just plain lost. And if we listen to one another in the context of Jesus, hearing hearts rather than picking at the way people express themselves, we will have the unity and the love He desires. Bless ya, LL
Yes,listen to my heart is right,because what I am saying Is coming straight from my heart.Liveloved Is saying It so much better than I do.
Thanks for helping me out LiveIoved.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 4:16:14 PM
|
|
|
Liveloved
Posts: 1884
Status: offline
|
quote:
Listen to her heart?
That's exactly what I mean, earthless. True, it is much more difficult on the forum (or in cyberspace in general). But isn't it what Jesus was so good at? hearing hearts? rather than hearing words?
I say a resounding YES. So that is what I do (try to do).
Questions are fine and sometimes do help clarify things. But when we make words our context rather than their meaning within the context of the person, we miss the depth, the heart of what is being said. . . and, yes, the very heart of the speaker.
This is what the pharisees did. They took the words and missed the heart. I am not accusing anyone of being a pharisee here but the example is so fitting. This was what Jesus confronted in people over and over and over again.
Anyway, thanks for responding and hearing me. I do appreciate you, LL
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 4:34:12 PM
|
|
|
techne
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tafkam
But I do agree that she has a valid point if you conclude that many of the trends in church today tend to lean more towards programs and "going through the motions" as opposed to genuine, heartfelt and inspired worship...
of course, this begs the question as to how you define "worship" (i thought it was presenting your bodies as living sacrifices - which would seem to me to be about more than the preaching and the meeting, let alone the singing), and whether that is simply about the [sunday] gathering...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 4:40:16 PM
|
|
|
techne
Posts: 579
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
quote:
Listen to her heart?
That's exactly what I mean, earthless. True, it is much more difficult on the forum (or in cyberspace in general). But isn't it what Jesus was so good at? hearing hearts? rather than hearing words?
actually, i think he discerned hearts (yes, yes, i know -- semantics). then again, he didn't spend his time interpreting people's hearts, he prophetically spoke to and unmasked their hearts, their internal baggage and attitudes. we need to ask questions and clarify terms and ideas precisely because we aren't him...besides, if we're supposed to test everything, we should.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Liveloved
Questions are fine and sometimes do help clarify things. But when we make words our context rather than their meaning within the context of the person, we miss the depth, the heart of what is being said. . . and, yes, the very heart of the speaker.
but i don't know the person. at all. the persona they present in these forums, for instance, may be entirely false. of course, we operate in the understanding (hope?) that they are truthfully and honestly representing who they actually are, but there are no guarantees, are there? there are some pretty scary stats out there re: the internet...
just some thoughts...
_____________________________
And when people cease to believe that there is good and evil
Only beauty will call to them and save them
So that they still know how to say: this is true and that is false.
One more day by Czeslaw Milosz
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 5:22:52 PM
|
|
|
DWinMadison
Posts: 16
Joined: 9/29/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: techne
..of course, this begs the question as to how you define "worship" (i thought it was presenting your bodies as living sacrifices - which would seem to me to be about more than the preaching and the meeting, let alone the singing), and whether that is simply about the [sunday] gathering...
I think this is a good commentary on what you are talking about...
Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God--this is your spiritual act of worship.
When I look at worship, I see two acts - The spiritual act and the physical act. When we gather as a congregation on Sundays, we see a host of people offering up their physical acts of worship. They are singing, lifting up hands, praying, shouting and dancing. It is a awesome site to see...hundred of believers engaged in the act of physical worship.
The act of the physical is a valid part of our worship. In doing so are dying to self to give what is do to the Lord. When we raise our hands or sing, it takes energy. It is not something that is not accomplished without effort. Therefore it can be see as a sacrifice. When I first raised my hands in worship is was an act of sacrifice. It was uncomfortable to me and took a lot for me to do it. I had to sacrifice my feelings and inhibitions to do what was right in my personal worship.
Romans 12:1 speaks of our spiritual act of worship. It states that our bodies are to be living sacrifices holy and pleasing to the Lord. This is the difficult part of worship that many fail to see and practice. It's easy to come to church and worship with the physical act. Everyone else is doing it...it's a whole lot easier when you blend in with the crowd. The spiritual is a bit more involved and takes a bit more committment.
With that said, I find [physical] worship today to be far more engaging than sitting in a pew trying to keep grand pa from snoring until the invitation. Also, we usually teach in our churches today that everything in "worship" leads up to the sermon. To me, although it's very important, I think the sermon is "teaching time" not "worship" which is the act of us ascribing glory to God. Thoughts?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 5:26:57 PM
|
|
|
colliefan
Posts: 2789
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Raleigh, NC
Status: offline
|
Yustme,
How do you know what you experienced and what you yearn for has any lasting value? Throngs have come foward at the BG crusade and by their own estimates less than 5% are following Christ 5 years following the event? What you claim to yearn for is just an move of emotions rather than the lasting move of the HS.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Does anyone remember? - 10/2/2008 5:27:02 PM
|
|
|
theredhog
Posts: 47
Joined: 9/23/2008
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: yustme
I want to see people not be able to leave the church untill they get right with God and with each other.
I would love to see this too but evidently, we are in this process as individuals... I am not so sure that great revival is going to come from a group or certain church anymore. I know I would probably be tempted to get all puffed up with pride if it happened at my church  I believe people may do better not to be seeking something like that too. It brings disappointment when it doesn't happen.
We have great music at our church and it is very scriptural and glorifies god beautifully. But, I get more "warm fuzzy" feelings at home just thinking about God and His love for me and everybody else. Knowing He is really good and is in control brings so much peace, especially if we have family members who seem to do everything but submit to Him.
I had rather see a person learn to love people as individuals than be emotional in a service, now. But, sometimes it hard not to be emotional when singing about God and His love. Used to be I would think there was no move of the Spirit if there as no emotion, Now I know..we can't keep the Holy Spirit from moving any way we try. We just may not see instant results in the worship service.
Could be too, that your strong desire to see God move on hearts could be cause for real gut wrenching prayer that I believe God responds to, if it is in accord with His will. And we KNOW His will is for people to submit to His Lordship....
Pray....it may be what is in the works with your feeling this way.... The prayers of a righteous man avail much!
God Bless!!
|
|
|
|
 New Messages |
 No New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/ New Messages |
 Hot Topic w/o New Messages |
 Locked w/ New Messages |
 Locked w/o New Messages |
|
 Post New Thread
Reply to Message
Post New Poll
Submit Vote
Delete My Own Post
Delete My Own Thread
Rate Posts |
|
|
Forum Tools
Printable Version
